Auction Monopoly and Rising Land Cost

I really don't want to get into this in to too much detail, as I have made my position on the whole thing clear, perhaps excessively I do however feel the need to correct the above line.

I still do not consider them sales, and as such, I do not charge a purchase price for the deeded plots in my sims. I also did not 'rush' into this area, it's something I have been doing for about 5 months*. Granted, my growth has increased so much more since 1.6 was released, and it was bound to with better land management tools affording more access to land fetures for the tenant.

*Yes that's before the creation of my av, I can assure you it's nothing sinister I created this av to keep the land management seperate from the rest of my SL. As things took off, the time required to manage rentals and mainland sales made it apparent I would have not much of a "rest of my SL". Now this av is my main, and only use 2 others to stabilise groups.

As has been stated before, "deed" is a word that sounds like land ownership, not land rental.

So even if you didn't call it "sales" you have something called a "deed" which opens up the same discussion.

I don't care what they are called, and for me, a price of $19999 followed by a tier of $25 per month seems like a purchase of land, an ownership, to me. If it is only a "long-term lease" it's a valuable one like a time share and is very different than a weekly rental.

Seems to me you did rush to talk about deeds, that's what is meant, and it's a good thing, too, because everyone should use whatever means they can to sell things in this game where commerce is so often hobbled.

I'd like to note that this thread was basically started to attack a group of people -- land barons. It's a favorite forum sport. Then it devolved into attacking one person, as usual -- Anshe. Another favorite forum sport. The mods did nothing while one group, and one person were attacked. I personally didn't reach for the "little red buttom" because I think open discussions in which people express their opinions is too important. But I do want to note that *as soon* as anyone begins to then push back against what is *already an attack on a group and an individual* then scores of net nannies descend, and it might not be long before they reach for their little red buttons and call out the mods. It's a pernicious practice. Let's see it for what it is. A desire to attack with impunity based on the knowledge the side upholding the free market and free expression will not be using that method. Then a slam dunk.

I wasn't trying to provoke a discussion on the subject, I only wished to correct you an a couple of things in which you made reference to my name. Yes it is unfortunate that the word 'deeded' is used. And yes, some will see it as a sale, others as renting.

I don't understand the comment about rushing into discussing deeding. How do you do you rush into posting exactly? I saw something being done that I strongly disagreed with and made my voice heard. Is there something wrong with that?

If you're going to whine like a schoolgirl whenever somebody expresses an opinion different than your own, the only thing left to say is...

STFU, noob.

Beautifully put, Varian. Now we know where you stand. There it is in one sentence. The difference between your attitude and mine.

Your point about attacking people is very significant and really does need discussion.

The forum rules protect residents (at least in principle) from critical naming and personal attacks. Perhaps from discussion of their motivation and integrity.

This is in my opinion appropriate for someone whose interaction with others is always as a "private resident".

I don't consider it appropriate where a person has a more public role, or is powerful enough for their actions to affect the economy, or land prices, significantly enough to affect other peoples assets.

I think that by taking on such a role, like a politician or employer of thousands in RL, the person needs to accept that their doings become to some extent public property.

Imagine, for instance, that a player is considering whether to place their assets into the hands of a leasing baron, trusting their integrity, agreeing to be obedient to their rules, and paying RL funds to them monthly.

Surely that person is allowed to inquire of others, and discuss with them, what the risk factors are. What is the record of the baron in dealing with disputes. Whether their prices are reasonable. How do they relate to LL. Whether they may act irrationaly out of ego. What level of service they supply. What their overall game plan may be, as their future plans will affec the security and future prospects of their tenants.

All this should be discussable in forum, for a person who chooses to take on such a significant role in other peoples lives. Like Anshe, or Hiro, or the people who run GOM, or SLExchange.

Yet you might say that under the forum rules, all this would be unacceptable.

We need it clearly understood that the full protection of these rules is only available to those who choose to remain "private citizens".

We cannot have a fair-minded discussion about evidence of the integrity or not of a powerful lease baron crushed by cries of "insult" and appeals to Jeske.

Exposure to public scrutiny comes with the job.

This doesn't mean that indiscriminate, unfounded insults can be thrown in their direction willy-nilly. Just that moderators should lean strongly in the direction of allowing unfettered rational discussion.

To be fair, that seems to be exactly what they are doing, for which all credit. But it would be nice if this was more generally understood, so that we don't get these periodic little cries from acolytes trying to stifle fair discussion of things which truly do affect us all.

I too have seen this point made before, and some people attach significance to it.
Can I just point out that LL were almost certainly just trying to implement this enhancement to the normal tight budget, and simply left this part of the software unchanged. I am sure this button label was never deliberately chosen to communicate about the exact nature os what was going on in this altered situation. It would have simply taken up much more time to go changing an existing dialog window which was in place, and would fulfil the purpose perfectly well.

All the words we use in SL are merely metaphors, arbitrarily chosen. Some seem more appropriate than others. Not significant. We just need names for things which work, distinguish what needs to be distinguished (to avoid confusion), and are metaphorical enough to be easy to remember and use.

Which is why getting philosophical about whether a lease is in some senses a land sale is such nonsense. All that matters is that they are sufficiently different to need distinguishing by different names. Only a commercial interest in advertising presentation could argue that they should be called the same.

*nods* I think the name given to these extra land management tools has been the root of most of the confusion.

My impression is that you don't post very often Hiro, being somewhat new (or newly reincarnated). And then you had a rush of posts on the deeding issue. This feels like a rush to me. Looks like one, too. It was mainly done to position yourself as contrasting to Anshe, in not using the land-sales list. That's how it appeared.

Varian and Prok..

I think you will find it's what could be termed as a discussion. One person posts, a reply is posted, the original poster returns on that post etc. If you feel more comfortable naming it a 'rush' then by all means do so.

And I ask you not to make assumptions on the reasons for what I post, that already earned an addition to the ignore list when I first started 'rushing' in to the forums, something that I prefer not to do. A certain someone has always created an image for himself to be a champion of freedom of speech. I don't think he would be too happy with the use of insinuations to make someone feel uncomfortable in speaking up. I am very open about what I do in SL. The fact I have 'an interest' in the subject area shouldn't prevent me from posting my views about something I disagree with.

Possibly. I, for one, would have to hear more of your views and figure if they are unique to a separate time-space entity than others who have appeared here. Furthermore, my expression of opinion about lack of advertising capacity is my legitimate opinion, and not "evil". And not an "outing" of evil. It's a legitimate concern, and shared by many.



Well, I tend to agree, that public figures are exempt from libel protections. That's so that their very public role isn't something they can misuse by harnessing the law to harass others. Of course, we know that the Abuse-Report system here can be misused by those public-type figures in power and *is* misused always, just like the little red button on these forums.

The problem is, this real-life notion of public-figure exemption (under First Amendment law, i.e. Supreme Court rulings on this Constitutional amendment) is not one that holds here in this private club with its TOS. Here, public or not, the TOS prohibition on personal insult seems to hold. However, things being what they are, it is not a prohibition evidently vigorously pursued by mods, and the way it works, you can only get the mods to pay attention if you keep triggering the little red button. So you are powerful and have lots of friends, you'll get dozens of triggers, whereas if you're a nothing, especially new, you won't get but one lone triggering -- your own -- if you think of it LOL. Not everyone reaches for the little weenie tattle-tale solution to every problem LOL.

But it's hard to assess your point. At which point does someone "rock" the economy. What is the dollar amount or the land amount in which someone "influences" second life? And why would it be the case that one, even big, land owner, is going to affect the prices of everyone's assets? While this might be proven, it seems to me to stem more from the Marxian/state capitalist/belief-in-scarcity school of thought rather than the school of thought that says: this is an open-ended system and I can work hard and do well, too, and let's create the best, most equal opportunities for everyone to do so, mindful that *equal opportunities* does not guarantee or require *equal results*.



These are all legitimate questions, at one level, but they do need to be seen in the context of motive. Are they being raised by alts who are hiding? Are they being raised by competitors who also happen to own a lot of private islands they can't lease anymore to their special gilded list of private rentors, now that the lid on the issue of renting and to whom is now more a public subject? Are they being raised just because someone hates capitalism, hates commerce, wishes this was some kind of socialist wiki so they could feel more comfortable?

It's just so hard to know. And I would tend to say that excessive raising of abstract issues is just inciting a climate of hatred and suspicion. Ask them -- but ask them with some kind of field experience. I don't see people going out to acquire this who could more than afford it.

All this should be discussable in forum, for a person who chooses to take on such a significant role in other peoples lives. Like Anshe, or Hiro, or the people who run GOM, or SLExchange.



It appears that way, yes, given their new-found zeal to protect not only individuals, but groups, from insult. I contest this type of interpretation or addition to the TOS precisely for the reasons you state -- that there needs to be public accountability for those who take on public roles. This is particularly true of those who take on partnership roles with Linden Labs or simply become very large wholesale customers of Linden Labs. The question is -- where is this appropriate? Should these large landowners, since they've formed their own communities under their own rules, start their own forums, discussion groups, town halls (and some of them like Anshe have already done this) so that these discussions are just for those who have bought into those communities? That makes sense. Why clutter up the SL boards with endless speculations about what rights or wrongs occur in these zoned communities? I'm for scrutinizing them anyway, but is Linden Labs obliged to keep providing space on their own bulletin board for this discussion, especially as it is often a vituperative, nasty, hostile one?




Well, be plain about what you're saying then, which is "We need Linden Labs to change their TOS to suit us." That *is* what you are saying.



Well, we have that. That's life in the big city. In fact, anyone who comes along and questions any power grouping in this game is going to get that power grouping not only pressing the little-red-buttin but appealing to Jeska.



You would think that the people present at the creation of the world -- the demi-urges, if you will -- who have had a huge hand in shaping it, making it, selling it, running it -- could and should be open to scrutiny.

But remember how Adam and Eve got thrown out of paradise? By eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.



Seems to me the mods allow for an awful lot of invective, often really nasty, to be laid at the door of land dealers -- often falsely.



I, personally, am not an "acolyte" if that's your intent, but hey, insult away, I'm not one of those people who reaches for the little red button.

Hiro,

Don't make assumptions about alts, as it is against the TOS to out alts and make allegations about alts.



Um. Let me get this right. I said you rushed. You were insulted. Now you say you did rush. Well, whatever. It's not material. The point is, slow or fast, you wished to disasssociate yourself from the others calling this "sales," yet you called it "deeds" which means "sales" and "ownership" to many. So, it could be a sleight of hand, and bears as much scrutiny as anything else.



I totally agree. In fact, I'm not the one who made that point about "the self-interested". I'm happy to have the self-interested speak all they wish. I just don't want them covering that up with claims of altruism and serving the public interest.

I have made no allegations. I simply addressed the post to yourself and Prok in the same way you previously had to Ellie and Lindar.



I wish to disassociate myself from the term "sales" as I believe them not to be "sales". I refer to the land as being "deeded" as that's the unfortunately confusing name on the little button.


I never stated I was serving the public interest. At the same time, I am not exactly serving my own interests, it would be MUCH more beneficial to me if the sale of plots of private land was permitted. It's much more simple than either of these. I just think it's wrong.

Well well well. Isn't recognition a wonderful thing, even if belated, and one slower off the mark than the other..
To my surprise, that was quite painless. Almost enjoyable for once.

With regard to Hiro, I hardly think him new, or inexperienced. I'd say experienced, knowledgeable, principled and sane. But what do I know.

I think maybe the problem is, Varian, that when dealing with people in forum, and choosing between two words, you always prefer the more loaded one, the one with implications of the other persons intention, or attitude, in it. Rather than its less loaded equivalent, which may carry the same information but in a less colored form. And the added color is often irrelevant and unnecesary, and makes unwarranted assumptions about whats inside the other persons head. This can be immensely annoying. Like being continually goaded with a steady stream of little misrepresentions of your own position. Each one small perhaps, but in their totality, absolutely infuriating. Particularly from someone who is clearly intelligent enough to be doing it absolutely on purpose. And the stream of little bites keeps derailing and fracturing the value of the communication. Sometimes several times per paragraph.

Maybe I do it too, its hard to tell. Or probably something else as bad or worse. We are often literally blind to our own defects, whilst those of others stand out like huge carbuncles. Ah - what it is to be a weak and feeble human.

The truth is, Varian, come on grin and admit it, you are a very naughty boy. I bet you were a real handful when you were small. Probably even naughtier than me.

Yay! Go Hiro !!

ROFL ! Literally......

So basically, what the premise of this thread is all about is pure and simple Anshe bashing? Is that what I have been reading? You don't like the rules of the game, because somehow they put the originator of this thread at disadvantage? Please, rules are rules are rules. We either live by them, break them or they break you.

The only thing that Anshe has done is played by the rules and is winning the game and some of you don't like it. Boo hoo! Whether or not she used a loophole is not for me to say, because I haven't been in the game long enough to know all of the caveats of the rules and the TOS.

Does everything Anshe touch, turn to gold? That is open to opinion. I think the telehub mall spaces are overpriced (even though I rented a space - one has to do what one has to do to survive) and they are mess to get around. That said, I think she hit on an idea and ran with it. Bless her. Who else has the cajones to do so?

Is Anshe skewing the economy? If she were, the Lindens would be all over her. IMHO, I don't think she is. I also don't think any land baron is skewing the economy to the extent that is professed here, especially the land economy. Its still based on supply and demand. Pure, simple, unadulterated economics.

As I have said before in this string, quit whining that you aren't winning any auctions. I have lost all of the auctions I have bid on because I refuse to bid as high as they go. Quit whining that Anshe is a pretty damn good business person. Just quit whining and play the game.

Just wanted to remind everyone to please refrain from personally attacking one another on the forums.

The "originator" ? Who's that? Philip Linden ? Lost me !

Don't you think perhaps, Timmy, you are posting a little aggressively in view of your own self-confessed, and very visible, lack of knowledge of the finer points of what we are discussing?

I could hardly begin to explain the misunderstandings even in the one para I quote above.

As for pure Anshe bashing, if you maen me (perhaps you don't) how do you fit this in to your picture?
"I do suggest that she is intent on making as much money here as possible, and that she plans that with all her considerable intelligence. How else could she have achieved what she has ? And why not ?"

I don't really feel like engaging with you Timmy, I'm afraid. And just for the record, there are interpersonal things happening here which I mustn't explain, but which influence what you see. Have fun, the way the forums are, I'm sure you'll quickly find someone willing to engage with you, one way or another, but it won't be me.

But don't let me put you off. Lack of knowledge of the issues is no bar to expressing a forceful opinion here. In fact they often seem to correlate (though happily not always).

Come on, Varian, talk to him. His views and style seem closer to yours than mine.

He thinks I'm an Anshe basher, too, Timmy. Though of course, I don't. Why don't you just check back to see who first introduced her name into this thread ? Message no 65, it was. Unless she was already being discussed before I arrived. If you look you'll find that, like Bart, it wasn't me.

One thing you are dead right on, though, Timmy. The whingeing about unfair auctions with which this thread began is really pretty pathetic, there is really only one way of rigging an auction. I've checked, and I'm pretty sure it aint happening. They are perfectly fair. just pay that little bit more than the baron price, and you'll win. Your danger is overestimating the value, and accidentally bidding against another silly newbie who has done the same. Ouch ! Last time I bought on auction I was just fractionally above only Anshe. Great feeling. You know you haven't paid too much.

Ok, thats it.

I think praps its nearly time once more for me to take a break from this seething hothouse of warring memes, and their heavily masked champions - before Jeske smacks my botty.

Maybe I'll go script some more amazing items purely for my own delight. Items to not try to sell to anybody, and to not try to make any money with. Coz thats the way I like my creations just at present. Mine, all mine !

Ta ta for now, Varian. Till we meet again, in who knows what guises. Bet I get to the mute button first, next time ! Come on, admit it. A naughty boy !

See my edited version of the post.



I never asked for anyone to personally engage me in debate. I have voiced my opinions based on the information at hand and from just pure simple knowledge of economics and from my own game play. It was assumed that I wanted to engage someone in direct debate. I am posting in general in hopes that someone might see the light, as I see it.

Personal, denigrating attacks are never pretty, especially when they come from those who claim to be so "enlightened" because of their tenure in the game.

Anyway, I think I will do the same as another poster and take some time away from this particular thread. My blood pressure needs a rest.

Ok Timmy, you want someone to engage you? I will! and I will engage everyone else in this thread who has twisted it into something it is not because of thier own selfish views.
This is my thread, and I will not stand for bashing of individuals or groups. You want to know why this thread originated? well now that you annoyed me to this point since you all obviously didn't read the beginning of this thread the right way, I will explain it yet once again.

I started this thread because I see a pattern forming, and not because I want to complain about not being able to win autions. I can win auctions myself, and I don't need help from a complaint forum to do so. A small group of people are buying up more land both public and private, and introducing them into the game at a rate that if continued, will soon rock the economy of SL. I have not pointed the finger at any specific person except for maybe one or two posts responding to comments about anshe. If you focus on one person, you lose the whole picture. A wise person once told me that "You can't see the forest through the trees."

You need to take a moment out of your busy little second life to see the big picture, not just what is happening right now, but where the main scheme of things are leading. That is why I posted this thread, and I refuse to let ignorant people who have no clue about what is really going on in the main scheme, to destroy the true meaning of this thread. Again, it is not one, but a handful of people who are taking control of the economy, whether it be now or in the near future. If things continue on this path, there will soon be nothing left to the original intent of SL.

Why do people worry about land? Land is the economy, and LL balances the economy with the ammount of land they allow to be released. I am not the first person in this thread to state that either. So pull your heads out of that black hole in your backside, and open your eyes to what this all about. And the next person to claim that this thread is about not being able to win an auction is going to get an earfull from me again!

So stop bashing Anshe Chung, Hiro, and other few people mentioned in this thread, because they are not the only ones. it is not one person or group, but a collective of people striving for the same goal. whether or not they realize what accomplishing their goal will do the economy of SL is unknown. I actually doubt they know what their actions are doing. I know this though, if they are doing something to where a thread like this recieves almost 100 posts in a matter of 4 days, there is a problem, and it should be looked at broadly, and taken seriously.

If you are going to post a stupid response that completely goes against what this thread is trying to accomplish, and you know you should be kicked in the head, then don't bother posting your two cents in here anymore. I just pray that my message is getting through those thick skulls of yours this time, and we can get back on track and keep this clean.

I apologize for losing my temper, I ask that you understand, and forgive. Thank you.

Curious thread.. you all do realise, that the average l$ / m2 sold is at its lowest since last october?

This is what I am talking about blaze. I'm not talking about this very moment, but where todays actions bring tomorrows consequences.

<<Kicks Blaze in Head for not reading previous post>>

Oh please! There is only one way to read something? Pretty narrow minded and elitist, doesn't one think? Maybe a lexicon should go with each post detailing exactly how something should be read and intepreted or maybe the person should just say what they mean in the first place. The beauty of the English langauge, especially the Americanized form is that it is so bastardized, that one can ask what the definition of the word "is" is.

So, the originator didn't mean to bash Anshe. But that is the interpretation one can take from their original post, by being so vague and pointing at conspiracies and such. Or maybe, they are just ticked off that they don't win auctions and so want to vent and holler and scream at the boogey men. Makes me want to say "Doth protesth to much".

I stand by what I said and will not be held responsible for how people interpret or read what I said.

Thanks for reading.

Games, you said "rising land costs".

Look at the trend. Over the last month, land costs have been trending downwards.

This seems like an absurdly long thread about something which is so obviously factually not true.

Not to mention the fact that islands are coming online, which are completely making auctioned land worth a lot less.