The plaintiff has the right to sue where the incident occurred, regardless of what any boilerplate adhesion language says.
Which would be California, where the servers are located.
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Virtual Land Dispute Spills Over Into Real World (player sues LindenLab) |
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Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
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05-10-2006 17:38
Which would be California, where the servers are located. _____________________
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Pantheon Lightworker
Registered User
Join date: 22 Dec 2005
Posts: 74
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05-10-2006 17:57
Which would be California, where the servers are located. he made the purchase in PA. Look up recent news about online gambling. It's illegal, and while the servers are not in the US, they are starting to talk about going after people who are doing the gambling |
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Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
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05-10-2006 18:22
he made the purchase in PA. Look up recent news about online gambling. It's illegal, and while the servers are not in the US, they are starting to talk about going after people who are doing the gambling I don't think it really matters. Signing on and accepting the TOS, which includes the following, makes it a non-issue: Any dispute or claim arising out of or in connection with this Agreement or the performance, breach or termination thereof, shall be finally settled by binding arbitration in San Francisco, California under the Rules of Arbitration of the International Chamber of Commerce by three arbitrators appointed in accordance with said rules. Judgment on the award rendered by the arbitrators may be entered in any court having jurisdiction thereof. Notwithstanding the foregoing, either party may apply to any court of competent jurisdiction for injunctive relief or enforcement of this arbitration provision without breach of this arbitration provision. _____________________
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Jauani Wu
pancake rabbit
Join date: 7 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,835
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05-10-2006 18:31
I don't think it really matters. Signing on and accepting the TOS, which includes the following, makes it a non-issue: that's just legal bs. LL advertises LL one way in one place, another in another place. then they define it a third way in the TOS. eventually it will bite them in the ass. the most basic premise is - if it does duck things, it's a duck. was it a legitimate auction? the courts will decide, not the sl land and "OMG THE L$ IS FALLING STOP TO SELL L$" economy forums. _____________________
http://wu-had.blogspot.com/
read my blog Mecha Jauani Wu hero of justice __________________________________________________ "Oh Jauani, you're terrible." - khamon fate |
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Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
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05-10-2006 18:41
.. not the sl land and "OMG THE L$ IS FALLING STOP TO SELL L$" economy forums. Damn, J... take all the fun out of it, why don't ya?!  _____________________
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LupineFox Paz
Registered User
Join date: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 60
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Gambling, Litigation and one million users
05-10-2006 23:36
Gambling - SL implicitly (some would say explicitly) condoes online gaming in SL in "chips" (lindens) convertable from and to real world currency on servers hosted in the US (CA). This is gonna be a big problem for them at some point. Exactly why they may have made a strategic blunder taking over the currency market.
Litigation - Can be filed in any state no matter what the TOS says. This lawayer is probably looking to make a practice in this brave new virtual world and will probably succeed no matter what the outcome of this action. One million users - I was at LL in January and they expect that the "tipping point" will come this year with membership going from a straight line trend to expotential. One million is probably less than a year away. My $2L |
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aEoLuS Waves
Koffie?
Join date: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 279
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Its all entertainment boys and girls
05-10-2006 23:57
< sarcasme >
Send him to Guantanamo Bay with an O'Reilly's SL Hacks book! </ sarcasme > Its all entertainment boys and girls He will make a nice profit in RL from this show just like a few people in this entertainment show seem to do. A bit of RL Law does not hurt the entertainment bussiness at all. There's no business like show business like no business I know Everything about it is appealing, everything that traffic will allow Nowhere could you get that happy feeling when you are stealing that extra bow There's no people like show people, they smile when they are low Even with a turkey that you know will fold, you may be stranded out in the cold Still you wouldn't change it for a sack of gold, let's go on with the show The butcher, the baker, the grocer, the clerk Are secretly unhappy men because The butcher, the baker, the grocer, the clerk Get paid for what they do but no applause. They'd gladly bid their dreary jobs goodbye for anything theatrical and why? There's no business like show business and I tell you it's so Traveling through the country is so thrilling, standing out in front on opening nights Smiling as you watch the theater filling, and there's your billing out there in lights There's no people like show people, they smile when they are low Angels come from everywhere with lots of jack, and when you lose it, there's no attack Where could you get money that you don't give back? Let's go on with the show (There's no business like show business like no business I know) You get word before the show has started that your favorite uncle died at dawn Top of that, your pa and ma have parted, you're broken-hearted, but you go on (There's no people like show people, they smile when they are low) Yesterday they told you you would not go far, that night you open and there you are Next day on your dressing room they've hung a star, let's go on with the show! http://www.lyricsfind.com/i/irving-berlin/unknown-album/there's-no-business-like-show-business.php _____________________
http://drainwaves.com
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Paulismyname Bunin
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 243
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05-11-2006 04:56
I think it would not help us if we underestimated one person like Bragg. From my dealings, observations and conversations with his avatar I received impression that he approach Second Life very systematic. While he quickly invested thousands of US$ into land and other ventures in SL, it still all seemed like the systematic exploration. He did not seem to act like normal SL business person or somebody who seriously try to build the career in SL land, malls or rental. It more was like somebody who was willing to invest (and loose) huge US$ amounts just to learn how the business and the economy works. What's more, he seemed to be looking for some law case for some longer while now. There have been legal threats from him towards Linden Lab about really small and far fetched things in the past already. Personally, I really get impression that he has come to SL to study this new economy with the intend to find the method to further his legal career. We should be seriously worry now. Of course the case he bring up here is weak and I don't see how he could win it, even by pull the strangest legal trick in the complicated law system in America. But this may just be the door opening for bring SL to attention of courts and regulators. And no matter what the outcome, he may position himself as the lawyer who challenge Linden Lab and bring "legal clarification" to what he call the "wild west". Imagine what this could do to the dynamic and innovation speed of the SL economy and the culture of freedom and creativity, if every feature, every transaction and whatever Lindens or residents do must constantly be defend against some "interested" lawyers. Don't estimate Bragg, it may be that he is one very rational and carefully calculating individual. He may not need to win this case or receive compensation to achieve what he is actually seeking. Take note of the press release and prominent featuring on his law firm's website. You don't need press release if you just seek the justice in court. Anshe, I have quoted you in full to try to be certain these comments are not misunderstood. I would also comment that there is a lot of useful background information in this weeks Metaverse Messenger - that clarifies certain points. And before starting my latest comment on this point I would say my previous view has always been that if Linden Labs made an error in the auction process they should accept that and stand the loss. In the same way as if you get fortunate enough to trade real life shares/equity at a price mismatch. Governor Linden if you are reading this you will understand that Hedge Funds do this in real life, and it is legal. To start with information from sources within the public domain..... It would appear that there may be an error in the auction process insomuch as people can enter bids to drive up the price of land and not have to take delivery of the land assuming that they win the auction. Previously that action would have resulted in a percentage fine but the system was changed insomuch as the maximum penalty was changed to a fixed flat fee of $25. Anshe Chung to her credit pointed this out to Linden Labs on several occasions that included documented emails. She had concerns people would game the system. No action was taken by Linden to correct this point. To prove a point she then bid up the value of several plots of land to the point where they would become uneconomical to purchase, and did not take delivery of her winning bids. This was allowed under the system. What then happened was another person came along and discovered that it was possible to then enter new bids at a much lower starting point, which he did, and won the action, and took delivery of his land, and sold it on. Linden Labs once having belatedly realising the foolishness of their incompetent ways decided arbitrarily to snatch back the land in question, and suspend the purchasers account. It also seems that subsequent purchasers may also be disadvantaged. While bidding for the sims in question there seems very little doubt that the person concerned informed Linden of his intended actions and received the go ahead to bid on the sims from a Linden Lab employee. The source of this new information is the Metaverse Messenger. To revert to my real life stock market point, I commented that an error by a market maker or any other person in the process of buying or selling quoted securities usually has to stand. I made the point about a recent error on the Japan Stock Market. Now in real life Anshe would have been compelled to take delivery of her stock purchase at action OR face financial penalties down to her last piece of jewellery to compensate the vendor. But in Second Life the system does not enforce that. Anshe Chung pointed out this error to Linden Linden did nothing Anshe Chung them demonstrated this process to Linden Another person took advantage of this price miss-match caused by Lindens error It would appear (yet again) a Linden employee authorised the transaction. My own opinion is that if all this has been documented and can be substantiated in a court of law Linden Labs may well loose, and in addition I do not believe that either Anshe Chung or the other person in the auction process have done wrong given ALL these circumstances are correct Regards Paul |
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Shaun Altman
Fund Manager
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,011
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05-11-2006 05:26
I don't think it really matters. Signing on and accepting the TOS, which includes the following, makes it a non-issue: Any dispute or claim arising out of or in connection with this Agreement or the performance, breach or termination thereof, shall be finally settled by binding arbitration in San Francisco, California under the Rules of Arbitration of the International Chamber of Commerce by three arbitrators appointed in accordance with said rules. Judgment on the award rendered by the arbitrators may be entered in any court having jurisdiction thereof. Notwithstanding the foregoing, either party may apply to any court of competent jurisdiction for injunctive relief or enforcement of this arbitration provision without breach of this arbitration provision. Here's a good link on how SL subscribers can (theoretically) protect themselves from this clause, if they choose to: http://www.gripe2ed.com/scoop/story/2004/11/8/112534/236 _____________________
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Blakar Ogre
Registered User
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 209
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05-11-2006 05:58
Paul, there's no new info in the metaverse messenger. If you had read all the threads on the board on this issue you would have known it all already. Even better, you can learn a lot more by reading the boards.
What I consider very unfortunate is the fact that you fail to see that this article is not written by an investigative reporter who seeks an objective opinion. Whatever was said by those who exploited the system has been repeated. As LL did not comment this results in a totally onesided story and repeats the lies and misconceptions that have already been told on the boards. A reporter should ask questions. As a reporter you don't just play the secretary of those you interview, you challenge them in order to achieve an added value. Your skill should not solely be writing but also interviewing. You should prepare your questions, investigate the facts and write a compelling story that shows you are able to think. When I read the Metaverse Messenger I see skilled writers who interview poorly. As they run on a weekly schedule I can imagine that their deadlines aren't always easy to meet. But when it comes to quality I'd rather read it a week late than seeing articles that lack real content. Their article on this topic isn't worth more than Marcs press release. |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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05-11-2006 06:02
Here's a good link on how SL subscribers can (theoretically) protect themselves from this clause, if they choose to: http://www.gripe2ed.com/scoop/story/2004/11/8/112534/236 I thought you couldn't take away the right to due process, nuh-uh, no way, no how. I also thought (possibly wrongly) that PayPal tried this and failed. Can't he just say: "I'm suing you, Linden Lab, and by doing I've just breached the TOS, so I can't use SL anymore.. but that doesn't stop the lawsuit! And if I win, I'll plead for my account to be reinstated anyway!" |
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Paulismyname Bunin
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 243
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05-11-2006 06:35
Paul, there's no new info in the metaverse messenger. Their article on this topic isn't worth more than Marcs press release. Yes there is Blaker Until I read that news article I had no idea that several people had pointed out an issue to Linden before any transactions had taken place. Until this day I thought that there was a one off software issue with the auction process alone that was exploited by a type of back clicking on a hyper link. Nothing previously was mentioned directly here about the involement of two/three stage process, and emails, and telephone calls by more than one person. Linden directors have also commented, although now limited in what they can say in public, due no doubt to due process of law If that news story is correct it would appear that the true issues are far more complex and could involve human error/incompetance over a prolonged period of time |
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Phoenix Psaltery
Ninja Wizard
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,599
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05-11-2006 07:50
Pardon moi? As a journalist you are supposed to report the news, not make it or for that matter offer violence -  I was off work when I wrote that.  P2 _____________________
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Paulismyname Bunin
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 243
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05-11-2006 08:11
I was off work when I wrote that. P2 I sincerly applogise. The Metaverse article seemed well researched. Perhaps for your off duty moments you should use an alt - |
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Llauren Mandelbrot
Twenty-Four Weeks Old.
Join date: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 665
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Journalistic Ethics?
05-11-2006 09:18
I was off work when I wrote that. |
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Blakar Ogre
Registered User
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 209
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05-11-2006 12:15
Nothing previously was mentioned directly here about the involement of two/three stage process, and emails, and telephone calls by more than one person. If that news story is correct it would appear that the true issues are far more complex and could involve human error/incompetance over a prolonged period of time It was mentioned, you just didn't read it. The article was by itself indeed ok if you wanted to have a summary of the "defense" of those that exploited the bug in the auctions. But at the same time it misrepresents what happened because they'll conveniently leave out the parts that will harm them. Note also that the things related to what Anshe reported are a different matter. That won't influence the outcome of this. |
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Burnman Bedlam
Business Person
Join date: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,080
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05-11-2006 12:25
This scenario makes me wonder if a SecondLife competetor hired this guys law firm to cause issues for LL, or at the very least suggested it.
Of course... it may very well be that he is simply trailblazing yet another rediculous form of "law practice". _____________________
Burnman Bedlam
http://theburnman.com Not happy about Linden Labs purchase of XStreet (formerly SLX) and OnRez. Will this mean LL will ban resident run online shoping outlets in favor of their own? |
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ReserveBank Division
Senior Member
Join date: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,408
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05-11-2006 13:00
Linden Lab needs to be sued... King Philip should be
put on the stand for Anti-Trust Practices.. They leveraged their monopoly of Second Life to push GOM out of the Currency Trading Business. The Gaming Open Market (GOM), which traded the virtual-world finances of Second Life for real-world currency, will be closing Sunday, October 2. The shutdown of the trusted currency exchange comes on the heels of its president's resignation, and after the makers of Second Life announced their intention to implement their own integrated currency exchange into the virtual world (thus getting the home field advantage over competing traders). The absence of the GOM could have a major impact on Second Life's economy and its resident entrepreneurs, some of whom are able to make a decent salary from cashing out play-money accumulated from virtual-world transactions. Linden Lab hasn't yet launched their integrated currency exchange, leaving residents to deal with IGE, a large and clumsy virtual-world financial pipeline catering to numerous online games. _____________________
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Burnman Bedlam
Business Person
Join date: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,080
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05-11-2006 13:10
Interesting...
So LL decides to implement an in-house solution rather than allow a 3rd party handle USD/L$ transactions... and that makes them a monopoly? As far as I can tell... there are half a dozen other currency exchange services such as IGE in operation. Of course... use of those services are generally in violation of the ToS of the various games they service. And by "monopoly of Second Life", do you mean... owners? Microsoft may be in violation of anti-trust laws because they monopolize the software markets... LL cannot be accused of being a monopoly because their primary order of business is providing a 3D interactive world... as does Sony Online Entertainment, Blizzard Entertainment, Mythic Entertainment... etc etc. Their primary focus of business is not exchanging virual currency. The idea that creating the LindeX causes a monopoly of the L$ market... (which by the way is an interesting stance since LL owns all of the L$, they simply allow the trading of USD for L$ through their system) ...is like stating that McDonalds is creating a monopoly if they start producing their own napkins instead of outsourcing their production. Linden Lab needs to be sued... King Philip should be put on the stand for Anti-Trust Practices.. They leveraged their monopoly of Second Life to push GOM out of the Currency Trading Business. The Gaming Open Market (GOM), which traded the virtual-world finances of Second Life for real-world currency, will be closing Sunday, October 2. The shutdown of the trusted currency exchange comes on the heels of its president's resignation, and after the makers of Second Life announced their intention to implement their own integrated currency exchange into the virtual world (thus getting the home field advantage over competing traders). The absence of the GOM could have a major impact on Second Life's economy and its resident entrepreneurs, some of whom are able to make a decent salary from cashing out play-money accumulated from virtual-world transactions. Linden Lab hasn't yet launched their integrated currency exchange, leaving residents to deal with IGE, a large and clumsy virtual-world financial pipeline catering to numerous online games. _____________________
Burnman Bedlam
http://theburnman.com Not happy about Linden Labs purchase of XStreet (formerly SLX) and OnRez. Will this mean LL will ban resident run online shoping outlets in favor of their own? |
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Ricky Zamboni
Private citizen
Join date: 4 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,080
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05-11-2006 13:14
yyyeah....
I'm not getting involved in this.  |
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Burnman Bedlam
Business Person
Join date: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,080
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05-11-2006 13:33
Some of the sentiments I have seen posted in this thread, as well as a couple others, show that some of you have a serious problem with LL.
What I don't understand is this... If you have such a problem with the people who run SecondLife, and the policies/mechanics/business decisions LL makes... why the hell are you still here? I'm not trying to be offensive here... but what exactly is the point of staying around if you are so damned unhappy? _____________________
Burnman Bedlam
http://theburnman.com Not happy about Linden Labs purchase of XStreet (formerly SLX) and OnRez. Will this mean LL will ban resident run online shoping outlets in favor of their own? |
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Ricky Zamboni
Private citizen
Join date: 4 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,080
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05-11-2006 13:41
Some of the sentiments I have seen posted in this thread, as well as a couple others, show that some of you have a serious problem with LL. What I don't understand is this... If you have such a problem with the people who run SecondLife, and the policies/mechanics/business decisions LL makes... why the hell are you still here? I'm not trying to be offensive here... but what exactly is the point of staying around if you are so damned unhappy? I pre-paid for a year's worth of premium.  |
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ReserveBank Division
Senior Member
Join date: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,408
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05-11-2006 13:48
If you have such a problem with the people who run SecondLife, and the policies/mechanics/business decisions LL makes... why the hell are you still here? I'm not trying to be offensive here... but what exactly is the point of staying around if you are so damned unhappy? You can't change the system from the outside. Plus where else can you invest $72 and make back around $100 in a year? Its free money, thanks to Linden Labs weekly stipends I receive and sell on the open market... _____________________
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Burnman Bedlam
Business Person
Join date: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,080
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05-11-2006 13:54
You can't change the system from the outside. That makes sense... But I don't see how making statements that LL should be sued will get you the attention from LL that you would need to effect change. Again... this is not meant to be inflamatory or offensive... I question to seek a better understanding. I can tell you from personal experience... when a client expresses they are unhappy or angry about something my company has done, my willingness to help them is directly associated with their attitude. The ole more flies with honey than vinegar deal, I suppose. _____________________
Burnman Bedlam
http://theburnman.com Not happy about Linden Labs purchase of XStreet (formerly SLX) and OnRez. Will this mean LL will ban resident run online shoping outlets in favor of their own? |
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Ricky Zamboni
Private citizen
Join date: 4 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,080
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05-11-2006 13:59
That makes sense... But I don't see how making statements that LL should be sued will get you the attention from LL that you would need to effect change. Again... this is not meant to be inflamatory or offensive... I question to seek a better understanding. I can tell you from personal experience... when a client expresses they are unhappy or angry about something my company has done, my willingness to help them is directly associated with their attitude. The ole more flies with honey than vinegar deal, I suppose. When someone gets nothing but sunshine blown at them, then can begin to believe their own PR. In certain cases, a contrary view is required to keep everyone honest. |