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"For Sale" means for rent??

Vick Vargas
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 13
08-31-2006 14:46
I've read a lot about the new changes now (havn't been playing much lately). I logged in today, opened the land search, and searched "For Sale" "PG & Mature" and the whole first page was .5L/sq.m - 1.0L/sq.m

Cool! (I thought lol)

This is when I noticed that they were private sims and the descriptions were talking about 125USD, 25USD/month - all sorts of BS.

This is not land for sale, this is land for RENT... perhaps there should be a feature that when you search "For Sale" you can buy/sell land (no artificial agreements necessary) and if I want "Estate" land, there could be another option besides "For Sale," such as "Estate Land" or "Estate Sales?"

It's just very confusing to try and find a nice lot now - not to mention that if I purchase some of the land now listed in "For Sale" it can be reverted right back to the owner and lose $LXXXX with no notification / compensation / etc.

Am I missing something? Or is this seriously the way you now have to find a new home?
Vick Vargas
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 13
08-31-2006 14:57
Small Update - I went to one of the cheapest ones...

"1. Read land covenant if you accept terms then
pay L$I000 to reserve land in your name.
RESERVATION FEES ARE NON-REFUNDABLE
AND ONLY GOOD FOR 24-48 HOURS.
FAILURE TO NOTIFY ONE OF THE NAMED ABOVE
WHEN YOU RESERVE OR THIS WILL RESULT IN LAND
BEING SET BACK UP TO SALE AND ANOTHER
L$1000 WILL BE REQUIRED TO RE RESERVE THE LAND.
THERE IS NO BUILDING ALLOWED UNTIL
PAYMENT IS RECIEVED IN FULL. ALL OBJECTS
WILL BE SENT BACK OR DELETED.

2. Contact Bart Heart to start lease.
First payment will be for land purchase and tier. Additional payments can
be paid in monthly increments up to the maximum lease limit.

I, Bart Heart, will IM you when your tier is 3 days from
being due. Payments are due on time. As certain circumstances
are sometimes unavoidable, we will work with you, however,
continuous lateness or non-payment will result in the repossesion of
land.
---------------------------------------------------------------
PRICES:
(ALL PRICES ARE USD)
Payment through PAYPAL.COM to EstateSales@BartHeartcom"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

He goes on to explain the different prices - anywhere from $45-135USD down-payment(?) and then monthly USD fees.

How is that For Sale? Any reasonable explanation please. That's all I ask. lmao
Dragon Keen
Registered User
Join date: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 245
08-31-2006 15:24
seems you havent been online since the update.... there are MANY threads talking about this, as I'm sure this will become another. To address your idea of being able to select, a vote proposal already exists

Discussion /13/22/132535/1.html#post1249354
Vote Proposal https://secondlife.com/vote/vote.php?get_id=1852
SL Answers Torley Reply /139/0b/132721/1.html
Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nations
Join date: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 941
09-01-2006 07:08
From: Vick Vargas
- not to mention that if I purchase some of the land now listed in "For Sale" it can be reverted right back to the owner and lose $LXXXX with no notification / compensation / etc.

Am I missing something? Or is this seriously the way you now have to find a new home?

STOP PRESS - NEWS FLASH

The Lindens can take back your land on the main grid in exactly the same way and the only promise that they won't is in the TOS, exactly the same as a covanent note.

If you believe Estateland sales are really rentals, then main grid sales are rentals too.
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Queen of Amazon Nation
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
09-01-2006 08:42
From: Surina Skallagrimson
The Lindens can take back your land on the main grid in exactly the same way and the only promise that they won't is in the TOS, exactly the same as a covanent note.
Not exactly, estate covenants outline very specific reasons that land might be repossessed. The LL TOS states plainly that your account, land deeds and all, might cease to exist at any time for no reason.
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
09-01-2006 08:47
It's the same deceitful tactic that people are using to advertise "first land" for L$5000.

I'm sure there must be something in the ToS that requires reasonable honesty in advertising and descriptions, although I'm sure I'm not the only one that's been to look at cheap "flat land in a quiet sim", which is flat if you don't mind the 45 degree angle, and is only quiet because the club there lags the whole region to hell and nobody else wants to live there.

Lewis
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nations
Join date: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 941
09-01-2006 08:47
You're right as always Khamon, Estate land sales are actually way safer than main grid sales.


Unless, of course, you write in the covenant that the land you buy may be taken back from you at any time for no reason, just as in the TOS.
_____________________
--------------------------------------------------------
Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nation
Rizal Sports Mentor

--------------------------------------------------------
Philip Linden: "we are not in the game business."
Adam Savage: "I reject your reality and substitue my own."
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
09-01-2006 09:05
From: Surina Skallagrimson
You're right as always Khamon, Estate land sales are actually way safer than main grid sales.


Unless, of course, you write in the covenant that the land you buy may be taken back from you at any time for no reason, just as in the TOS.


I trust a real world company more than some random schmuck on the internet. (No offense Desmond! :D )
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Lo Jacobs
Awesome Possum
Join date: 28 May 2004
Posts: 2,734
09-01-2006 09:08
From: Vick Vargas
Am I missing something? Or is this seriously the way you now have to find a new home?


A lot of people rent from estate owners and many of them have been very happy with it. However, I STRONGLY suggest you choose a landowner with a good reputation -- don't be afraid to ask around, or ask his/her tenants.

The tales of woe that have befallen those who have been scammed could fill a Bible.
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Wrestling Hulka
Registered User
Join date: 9 Apr 2006
Posts: 114
09-01-2006 09:15
From: Surina Skallagrimson
STOP PRESS - NEWS FLASH

The Lindens can take back your land on the main grid in exactly the same way and the only promise that they won't is in the TOS, exactly the same as a covanent note.

If you believe Estateland sales are really rentals, then main grid sales are rentals too.


I trust the Linden's track record of not abusing the power instead some estate owners.
Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
09-01-2006 09:17
From: Surina Skallagrimson
You're right as always Khamon, Estate land sales are actually way safer than main grid sales.

You can get your mainland taken away if you are banned (never heard of it happening in any other situation). You can get your estate land taken away if you are banned, since banned people can't do anything with land at all, or if the estate holder decides unilaterally that you have breached one of the conditions. The former is the subset of the latter. So not really.
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
09-01-2006 09:57
From: Reitsuki Kojima
I trust a real world company more than some random schmuck on the internet. (No offense Desmond! :D )


Heh, if I didn't know me, I wouldn't trust me either!




Dealing with a sim owner comes down to a bunch of factors, far as I can tell:

1) competency in running a sim + finances (no "oops, I just spent your tier!";)

2) some life experience dealing with people (hey, where did everyone go?)

3) stability (is the sim owner gonna say "meh, I'm bored, see y'all later!";)

4) understandability ("folks, we are now Sumerian themed!" - ack!)


The hardest one to see is #1. Has a sim owner been blowing the tier cash? There is no way to safely show anyone 'the books', though perhaps in general you can see people's business performance in other ways (failure to grow, obvious, massive expensive mistakes, &c).

Consider Alliez, Hiro, Adam, Anshe and I'm sure many other people I simply don't know about - *I* would generally trust all of them simply due to mutual self interest. "Cut and run" just doesn't make any sense - it is in their financial interest to deal with people fairly.


As for the buy/rent issue - does anyone on private islands 'own' land? As long as I can reclaim and ban the 'owner' it doesn't seem like 'ownership' is the right term.

For that matter - do I 'own' my sims? They can be taken away from *me* at any time by the Company if I misbehave, don't pay tier, &c. But I doubt that would happen.

Maybe I've been lucky so far, but with well over 100 residents in six months, nobody has even remotely caused trouble enough to consider removal. Which is good, because even if I was 'in the right' in a hypothetical situation, it would generate huge amounts of bad press if I were to remove anyone.
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
09-01-2006 09:58
From: Reitsuki Kojima
I trust a real world company more than some random schmuck on the internet. (No offense Desmond! :D )
Well you should; however, several estate owners represent large investments of cash & time and support websites & several services additional to land rentals. To me, they're trustworthy compared to some month-old av with a sim hawking super cheap rentals. It boils down to reputation. People who implicitly trust LL, but balk at buying land on a continent that's supported hundreds of happy land owners for over a year, are pulling apples out of a barrel and calling them oranges just to insist that there's a difference.
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Osprey Therian
I want capslocklock
Join date: 6 Jul 2004
Posts: 5,049
09-01-2006 10:18
It seems like renting on an island just adds a layer -
buy-mainland = buyer LL-TOS
rent-on-private-island = renter LL-TOS, owner LL-TOS

If your landlord gets banned you lose out just as if you yourself were, don't you?
JR Unknown
I dabble in land a bit
Join date: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 125
09-01-2006 10:53
From: Surina Skallagrimson
You're right as always Khamon, Estate land sales are actually way safer than main grid sales.


Unless, of course, you write in the covenant that the land you buy may be taken back from you at any time for no reason, just as in the TOS.

What color is the sky in your world?? I seem to forget the last time Gov. Linden decided to leave the game and sell all of his land to someone else. Oh thats right, IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED!!! How many island owners have decided to pack up and move on?? I'm guessing more than a couple. I'll stick with my chances that the Gov. lets me keep my land vs. a private owner that could sell at any point or just decide to revoke my land for whatever reason. You should breathe deeply before making such outrageous comments as it will allow more oxygen to get to your brain allowing you to see things more clearly. Have fun on your estate, best of luck. And as far as the original thread began yes it is kind of a joke that the rentals are listed as sales. It's two different things and I'm sure it will be ammended in a future update to avoid confusion.
Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
09-01-2006 11:04
I wonder what people will be comparing estates to in six months? It likely won't be Linden Lab directly managing what we now call the mainland continents.
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Osprey Therian
I want capslocklock
Join date: 6 Jul 2004
Posts: 5,049
09-01-2006 11:12
From: Khamon Fate
I wonder what people will be comparing estates to in six months? It likely won't be Linden Lab directly managing what we now call the mainland continents.


That would put them in violation of the Osprey Therian TOS :-D
Elinah Iredell
Registered User
Join date: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 269
09-01-2006 12:09
From: Lewis Nerd
It's the same deceitful tactic that people are using to advertise "first land" for L$5000.

I'm sure there must be something in the ToS that requires reasonable honesty in advertising and descriptions, although I'm sure I'm not the only one that's been to look at cheap "flat land in a quiet sim", which is flat if you don't mind the 45 degree angle, and is only quiet because the club there lags the whole region to hell and nobody else wants to live there.

Lewis



I was searching for land ,I saw advertised "First Land" as high L$50,000 and more ! They must be trying to sucker newbies. Linden should do something about this form of scam. If they are selling their own first land they need to change the description. Either that or they have to offer to first land buyer the first land price and can sell the land to anyone else at the other price that should make them change the description quickly enough ! Linden are you reading this they are scamming newbies!

Elinah
Elinah Iredell
Registered User
Join date: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 269
09-01-2006 12:15
From: Surina Skallagrimson
You're right as always Khamon, Estate land sales are actually way safer than main grid sales.


Unless, of course, you write in the covenant that the land you buy may be taken back from you at any time for no reason, just as in the TOS.



I disagree how is he right? Any land estate owner can simply leave the game at anytime and thats it your land is gone isnt that correct? That at least wont happen with linden land.


Elinah
Vick Vargas
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 13
09-01-2006 12:59
Thank you for all the responses. I understand more how the TOS is similar to a Covanent that you must agree to. However, you agree to the TOS just to play the game, if you want to own more land, you know that you have to pay land tiers, you know the risks. There's no history here of the Lindens randomly taking peoples land or dropping sims off the grid that I know of. Not that there is a history of estate owners doing it, but it's a major possibility as some of you mentioned how people just decide to quit the game. Reputation is key for estate owners, and some of them will excel I suppose.

The difference is this further agreement, and the false advertising behind it. They are basically hidden fees, more loops people have to jump through. Who would buy from a website that offers widgets for 99 cents only to find out shipping and handling is $20USD? That is the best comparison I can think of to what seems mainstream land sales at this point.

Thank you very much Dragon Keen for posting those links, I put my votes towards the feature. =)
Tuach Noh
Ignorant Knowlessman
Join date: 2 Aug 2006
Posts: 79
09-01-2006 14:22
It's also the case on the mainland that you won't lose access to your land because Linden Lab forgot to pay themselves tier, or because their credit card was declined when they charged themselves. Estate owners, who must pay nontrivial fees to LL each and every month or suffer exactly that can provide no such assurance.

Sure, that's not going to happen with Anshe Chung or the "big ones." But I don't think Anshe Chung is the one offering these "for sale*" scams.

*I mean rent.
Dragon Keen
Registered User
Join date: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 245
09-01-2006 22:56
From: Surina Skallagrimson
You're right as always Khamon, Estate land sales are actually way safer than main grid sales.


Unless, of course, you write in the covenant that the land you buy may be taken back from you at any time for no reason, just as in the TOS.


not true... what if the estate itself is taken away by LL for no reason? Now instead of one "estate owner" to worry about, you have 2 if you think about it
Vick Vargas
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 13
09-02-2006 10:51
LOL

Did a search today, lowest "Mature" is 1.5/sq.m, here is my best text representation of the picture of the land...

<<ROOF WAS HERE>>
FOR RENT
IM <name>
<<BASEMENT/WEBSITE NAME WAS HERE>>

Gotta love it.

I have an idea for the private island owners thanks to LL's new 'feature'.

This is for private island owners that aren't making money through rentals, but selling a product, no matter what it is - you can be at the top of the listing at almost any moment because your 'Convent' can be anything you want... perhaps "This land is not for sale. This is a 1hr. rental fee." BUT that does not have to be in the description! And when they go to the land they view it, check the convent or whatever - they see your shop, studio, casino, you name it.

EDIT: The spaces for the house were all messed up so I changed it.
Vick Vargas
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 13
09-02-2006 10:56
Anyway, I won't discuss this any more, LL usually does fix the problems pretty effectively and I'm sure they notice this one by now. /shrug
Dragon Keen
Registered User
Join date: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 245
09-02-2006 11:17
From: Vick Vargas
Anyway, I won't discuss this any more, LL usually does fix the problems pretty effectively and I'm sure they notice this one by now. /shrug


Torley has noticed, but in the 12.1 update theirs nothing new to help this situation as of yet
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