Put Dwell Payouts In Each Resident Account

I didn't say that it wasn't, I am very aware that it is, and I definately think that the popularity facet of SL is necessary.

I was pointing out that Prokofy stated that helping one's friends (popularity) to get dwell was a problem. He stated that his packet idea would fix it. So, my point was, it would be just as easy to do the same thing, if not more so, if we had a packet of points that we could consciously award.

By the way; why do you think I picked your mall as one of my current places to sell in? I found it in the find menu and it looked popular.

In the end, I am all for transparency and clarity, so, we all agree on that, I think. Where I disagree, is that player awarded dwell points, which diminishes the reasoning behind dwell, is the answer. Although, I do think that Prokofy should submit a propostion and see what happens.

Timmy is absolutely correct that it is about making it more transparent and understandable.

It would still be dwell in terms of "votes for favorable content" if you made the pay packets to pay down. I offer it to be shut on and off only as a solution to the problem of how to make the system work if it is a complexity to have it run 24/7 but only be on that idiotic and odd proportionate system that nobody gets and which does not reward creativity.

Chip and Nolan can chose to see my call to change the dwell system to be cynically about "figurong out how to camp on my own and my friend's lots." I could cynically reply that their nasty critiques are merely about making sure they and their friends keeping a system that rewards them and keeps rewarding them.

But surely they don't believe this system works any better than Timmy. It surely doesn't cover more than 10 percent of business expenses, if that. So why can't we fix it? Why can't we come up with a way to make it more transparent, more understandable, and more controllable?

Transparency can only come with control by the individual. That's all there is to it. It's not just about explaining the formula -- although we're part-way there now with that.

The dwell system certainly does perpetuate itself horridly. A tenant will only rent from a mall they already see has traffic...which it got because it draws in tenants who will only rent from a mall they already see has traffic...only by death and inheritance and some sort of monarchy and royal lineage would you ever be able to transfer valuable properties in this type of system LOL.

The only way new content, fresh blood, new ideas, constantly circulating energy can enter this moribund and stagnating system is if dwell doesn't just keep rewarding the same people gaming it the same way, but is something openly coherent to anybody who wants to attempt it. Currently it baffles most people and they give up.

No, you said that. You claimed that people just helped their friends with dwell. I said that your solution would encourage it too. I did not say that you personally wanted to benefit from it. Guess what's for dinner tonite? Cognitive dissonance - again! It tastes like liver but it's tougher to chew! Kind of like shoe leather.

So are you disagreeing, and saying that dwell shouldn't be based on popularity? If so, this confuses me, because your voting system is based on popularity as well. In fact, your proposal ensures that dwell will no longer be dwell, it will be another ratings system. How do you propose to get people not to use it to help their friend who has a top club? You say this is a problem, how does your system safeguard against one of the main reasons you are citing for the necessity of this revamp?

I thought you said it was "not gaming the system".

By the way, there is "fresh blood". Timmy is a shining example.

I don't see the problems you claim to see. I see a highly dynamic, bristling community and economy. Then again, the worst in things and people aren't the first thoughts that pop into my head when look around me.

Ok guys, Prok you keep talking about pay packets. Why? Why do we have to have a set amount of dwell to spend? there are people who go days and even weeks without logging in. LL doesn't have to worry about them leaving dwell points anywhere.

So why don't we scrap "Packets" and a limit of dwell we can leave, and just go by 24 hours worth of dwell you can leave. No one stays on for 24 hours, and you can't accrue dwell by sitting on your own land. plus, after a little while if you are just sitting around, you get kicked out of the game. So the club you go visit just accrues more dwell minutes by everyone who stopps by, and gets a set amount of dwell according to the total minutes spent on that land, and NOT by the percentage of time a person spent on your land.

Now we can split things up and for a popularity meter, we can keep the system used to calulate dwell but instead of it calculating dwell, it calculates popularity.

Comments?

Prok, where do you get this "most people" stuff? I don't find dwell confusing and I don't hear anything that would qualify as "most people" saying they don't get it. It's a completely objective metric of what percentage of people spend what percentage of their time on your land. How is that confusing in the slightest? Do you want a full report of where everyone in SL's dwell points went and what percentage?

Back in the day before we had dwell we had something called vote boxes. If you liked someone's place you clicked their vote box. Money was paid out in proportion to the number of votes people got. It was a useless system because people only voted for their friends and it was heavily gamed to the point of being worthless as a way of telling what was actually popular. That's why they got rid of it. Your system would basically be a return to a system that's already been discarded because it didn't work.

I think this suggestion would lead to alot more gaming of the system.

One avatar left on a single plot would generate the same dwell as 24 avatars visiting a plot for 1 hour each.

I think LL was hoping to cater to even the casual user when judging dwell. If a person is one to log in, even just 30 minutes a day, their dwell vote should be equal to that of one who logs on for 5 hours. Both users are likely spending equal amounts of $USD to LL. If there is an event/attraction that encourages a group of people to log on for a even a short time, this is good for SL.

Nolan, I'm guilty of very bad faith in regard to my own self, and that is to accept you as an interlocutor. That was a mistake. You are guilty of profound violence to my Second Life, as you know, enabling many others to also commit such acts against me. You've never been punished for this due to all sorts of reasons that remain obscure to me. So I'm forced to leave it at that. However, I don't accept you as an interlocutor with me, no. Your continued forms of violent discourse -- the whole cognitive dissonance shtick implying I'm mentally ill, etc. -- well, it bears no comment. The best thing to do when faced with this kind of harassment is to ignore it, abuse report it but certainly not accept the harasser as an interlocutor.

Chip, I'd like to think that despite your stubborn insistence on arguing with everything I say and making scathing put-downs of everything I say, you do mean to get at the truth and you care about the game's features. But...I really don't think that, Chip. I think you just want to make sure Chip stays on top. Shrugs. So, stay on top, already. But that doesn't mean I stay on the bottom

Every single new person coming into the game does not understand dwell, spends weeks trying to get it, and gets angry about it often. Some get to querying it here on the forums and get smacked down. They need to make it more transparent, and more understandable.

Games, perhaps the solution is to keep it on 24/7. I only backed away from that solution because you and others said that would create problems with the totalling every day in real time. I don't care if it runs 24/7 or not. Certainly in TSO it wasn't a problem to make it run 24/7 and simply calculate out to show up every 3rd day actually, not even every 2nd day. That meant you didn't get instant visual results to your efforts to camp out a lot but they came soon enough. Every new person could grasp it in a few days.

Jeska, this thread has plenty of snarky, nasty personal attacks, judgements, incitements, and just general arrogant, condescending approaches to discussing ideas. Can you see that? Do you care? Somebody can deal with this by answering all these personal attacks that accuse one of mental illness or cynical favoritism and gaming of systems for their friends, or they can rely on mods. But mods don't respond unless the AR button is triggered. I personally am not going to waste my ammunition on triggering it yet another time.

I've gotten some useful input here on my proposition and I'll be posting it to the propositions. Closing the thread means that nobody gets to keep discussing my proposition and I have to start a new thread. So do me the courtesy of not closing this thread and instead, issue whatever warnings you need to issue *directly to the individuals involved* rather than to the thread participants as a whole, which always leads to confusion and side-stepping of responsibility by many.

You've talked to every single new person? Damn. That's impressive. How do you find the time to post so much?

Prokofy, you dragged out the "destroying the community" stuff, your TSO issues, and now you have dragged out the incident which got me publically warned and admonished by a Linden and a score of others, for days on end. You kept bringing it up in threads that I had no involvement in whenever you would have a disagreement with someone else, none of whom I even hang out with in SL. Any snarkiness was just a side effect of your own snarkiness.

All I did was respond to your want for a TSO like structure for SL subsidies. Then you went off the deep end about your social issues in TSO, people at the top gaming the dwell system, etc., and set the tone from there on in. Any snarkiness on my part was just an effect of your own snarkiness.

Are smokers considered mentally ill? They have cognitive dissonance. I think you do too, sometimes you do it in the same post. C'est la Vie, but don't expect me to not point out the hypocrisy in it.

Chip and I have been trying to explain to you that your idea is really just a resurrection of a system that was already scrapped, because it was highly gameable. You delineate and claim that we are thinking and proclaiming that you are trying to benefit yourself and your friends. Again, you don't speak for me, and I imagine Chip feels the same way. You also claim to speak for all the new folks joining SL. Please speak for yourself. Not everyone sees sinister motives or confusion all over the place.

I've said how I feel about your idea. You kept trying to bait me with past issues, you even chastised me for speaking of them after you brought them up. And here you are again, screaming "victim" and asking Jeska to punish people for following your lead.

It's time to say ciao. Ciao.

I think placing the system entirely in the hands of the players makes it more gameable than it already is. This is probably why LL designed it the way they did. They may have wanted it to be somewhat ambiguous to minimize gaming.

Seems like a lot of overhead for LL to accomodate with an end result of nothing gained. I'm OK with the concept of LL possibly informing us how much is in the dwell budget but regardless, you still will have 80% of the issues raised today re. dwell and the 20% that are addressed are not worth the development time that could (should) go into other areas.

I'm puzzled as to how this system has more overhead. I also don't see what's so complicated about a system that distributes a pay packet to every player -- they already distribute LL that way based on stipends and ratings.

When you have something that is gamed, the solution is to allow it to be gamed and then harness it. All the other MMORPGS bitched that selling game currency was gamed and people cheated. That made it hard to play, when you didn't cheat and others did. SL cut through all that by simplying making a currency exchange. Brilliant! Everybody said the job of controlling corruption around game currency should be achieved by stopping the flow, punishing the perpetrators, making it illegal and bannable, but SL cut through all that and just let people sell it, then the market naturally created itself.

In the same way, dwell dollars have to be permitted, and the market has to be allowed to set itself. Currently clubs have sit-ins where they bring all their friends and alts to park on a land opening night to get the dwell up so that it will then be a self-fulfilling prophecy -- they have high dwell which puts the popular list, people see them on the list, then come to them because they are popular with high dwell -- a closed circle. It's not that currently under the system, dwell naturally records what is the pulse of the nation. It just records what club owners, their alts, and their networks can achieve with spam lists.

The different is that with discretionary income, people will be freer to spend it in more diverse ways.