Put Dwell Payouts In Each Resident Account

in some cases you can't do consumer producer exchanges because of perceptions. people on basic accounts are often people who don't want to spend anymore money on sl. they will only change their mind by having a good time. LL subsidizing good events with dwell is a way to give incentive to players to provide a good time to people so they want to keep playing sl and paying LL. to get new premium accounts and to sustain old ones.

in some instances, and this is one, you need to socialize aspects of the economy.

This isn't a thread about BDSM and children and TSO so I won't be debating those remarks here.




Well, sure, yeah, I'm for opposing welfare of that sort too. But in real life, you do have government incentive programs to help small business, various loans programs, community business awards whatever. Maybe it would be great to have the RL economy kick in completely. But I wouldn't want to see that without a lot more RL protection of land rights, RL lawyers, RL courts, RL contracts systems. And we don't have that. And maybe we shouldn't.

So since we have a game, then have a game, with dwell.



Cough. Yeah. So just you and your mentor/helper/greeter friends can cash out on events. Makes sense!

Yes, that's it exactly. So dwell is an LL loss-leader, I guess.

I agree with you mostly. That's why I would say leave it alone for the most part. LL is trying to gravitate towards just the right balance, and they seem to be achieving that. I remember being told at a town hall at the time of 1.2 or shortly thereafter, (can't remember if it was Philip or Robin) that they want to move towards a self supporting community. Like I said though, I agree that to some extent there needs to be some social programs in place. Especially for educational events, but I wouldn't protest too loudly if they started up with some sort of incentive again for non-educational event holders. Maybe a dwell multiplier for that period?

The basic account mentality you describe seems backwards to me. What I mean is, it seems that those on basic accounts would be more willing to spend since they have a small or no monthly fee.

I do think though, that folks need to strive to be more independent. If this is to be a 3d web, people are going to have to get used to paying for entertainment, just like it is on the 2d web, and the same goes for business owners.

I guess in the end though, I have mixed feelings, and I don't like that I do. It means I will have to think on it some more.

I agree, and that it's a shame you brought your TSO socio-political activity into the thread. You breached the subject. I responded to your elevating (lowering?) it into that realm. Prior to that, I had simply voiced my feelings about TSO, and how TSO's economy compares to that of SL, especially incentive wise.

SL is moving toward localized self-goverment. There are scores of island sims, player made continent, cooperatives, city-states, etc., so we may see SL move toward player governments managing social programs. They already are to an extent in some areas. Eventually, we will probably see existing sims coalesce into less of a mish-mash. It's already happening. There will probably be some sims that never make it to that point, but, I kind of like the idea of some ungoverned areas.


That is the oldest debate in SL. Game or not. The only answer I have heard that made sense, was that it's what each individual perceives it to be. Some folks get quite agitated when some state that it "is not a game". Some folks are just the opposite and are tolerant of other widely varied views, and while that looks good on the surface, I think those differing perceptions are a source of a lot of friction in SL. The entire debate evokes at least some measure of emotion from most folks, regardless of which side of the fence you are on.

Sorry, once again you are projecting the way you think onto me and others. You imagine the absolute worst motives within every person, situation, issue, or idea that isn't yours or that of someone who agrees with you. I don't think like you Prokofy, and thank the stars for that.

I can't wait for you to come at me with "this thread isn't about your mentor/helper/greeter friends Nolan!"
RRL

The question is whether dwell is a social program to be managed someday by a player government or the federal government's incentive program which the players should have more democratic participation in. I would think the latter for now.

To tell you the truth, all I know about dwell is the more people that stay on your land for a long amount of time gets you a ton of money. well decent amount anyways. I think you new proposed system is pretty unfair compaired to what we have now. Like I said, dwell seems pretty simple to me from what I know. The more people, and the longer they stay, the more money you get. now in your system, it really wouldn't matter much how long they stayed there on your land, because 2 people who sit on you land for say 20 minutes with your system will not produce the same amount of dwell for the land owner. One person visits 5 other places for 10 or so minutes at a time and the other visits 15 other places for about 10 minutes at a time. so one player is giving you more dwell than the other for the same aount of time. I think that is quite unfair in that aspect. So what exactly don't you like about the current dwell system?
Also, I can tell you right now, that if your system was put in place, not many people would do as much exploring, because all they would be thinking is oh no! I'm spending my dwell points somewhere else! Just like when GOM and IGE opened up, everyone started pricing items acordingly to RL money in the market. I would try to sell a car for L$1,500 and someone would say Oh no! thats like US$5! In any case, I think we are fine the way we are, and change would only affect how people explore. I don't see any good coming out of it at all.
And that my friends is my 2 cents. Pass the cheese.

Timmy, I mentioned TSO only as a comparison of the habits of the population. I said nothing about implementing TSO functions. Shouldnt I be allowed to make comparisions with other games?

Perhaps you didn't mean me specifically, but since I was the one to mention TSO, its hard not to take your comment personally.

I repeat ... I only mentioned TSO as a comparision ...

/sigh ... I wish I hadn't mentioned TSO at all. Now we get this derailment. I apologize. I'll try to remember not to mention other games when I post.

I think it's fine to compare TSO to SL, Jim and others. It seems to be a social-bonding topic for the jet-set in SL to dump on TSO. So be it. It had its valuable lessons.

Games, I think you've raised some interesting points. That's the kind of thought-provoking discussion I'd look for in a thread like this, instead of the usual sniping and social-bonding-at-the-expense-of-another, the forums ritual of choice.

all I know about dwell is the more people that stay on your land for a long amount of time gets you a ton of money. well decent amount anyways.

Well...not a "ton"...but if you can get up in the stratosphere of 12000, I guess so. I see that something like 1200 a week only puts like 5 dollars into the pockets of each of 100 people, but hey, what's not to like?



I'm not sure about that. Do we know that for a fact? I don't know if the Lindens' system taps out on time. I think it doesn't. But I'm not sure it is a good thing to encourage people to come and park on one lot, forming one clique, never getting out and seeing anything else. It makes for exclusionary, closed, exclusive communities -- maybe that is at the root of some SL problems as a social function, who knows?!

It means you log on and you don't dare go to another lot for fear of "breaking up your dwell". But wait a minute...just how much is it? And that's what I want to get rid of -- that not knowing.

If dwell could show as a meter, maybe even with points debiting or a redline on an hourglass, that would be great. I could monitor it, like blood pressure, and adapt behaviour accordingly -- staying on a lot, or awarding dwell to a new lot.



Not sure how you got that out of what I wrote but I will try to write it more clearly. What i was hoping for was 2 people who both stay 20 minutes will produce exactly the same amount. They see it, they put it out there, they move on, and give the next dwell point for 20 minutes or half point for 10 minutes -- however the system gets configured.

My point is to configure it so that a) I can see what goes on myself instantly b) it becomes coherent as something I pay out.



But that's exactly how the Linden's system works! From everything I've read about it, it works that way -- my dwell and your dwell is all in one pool that they adjust and pay out from. My logging on and staying 5 minutes on my own group lot will put in exactly as much as you logging on and staying 30 minutes on your friend's lot -- at least, that's what I understand about it, and I would be love to get clarity on that myself.



1) I don't like that you can't see it going out as you dwell it
2) I don't like that you can't control the payments, the payments are controlled by some central command that has an obscure formula
3) I don't like that you can't see it coming in from direct correlation between numbers of visitors and your payout the next morning. I'm tired of having 60 people stay for a total of 90 minutes in 2 events and then waking up the next morning to find 0 on my lot.



But Games, they have to think that now! The way the system works now, if I don't remain at least 5 minutes on a lot, I've wasted my time. Furthermore, if I go to a lot and stay 60 minutes, then make a quick trip somewhere, say, to a GOM terminal to get cash and come back to a party to buy something, well, I've split up my dwell and wrecked its perfect pointage for that lot. That is how the Linden system works -- it awards dwell to each lot you visit on some kind of obscure incremental basis.




Why do you see good in staying in the dark about dwell?
Why do you see good in not being able to directly pay out your dwell to whom you wish?
Why do you see good in not being able to receive dwell directly into your account in visible fashion tied to your events?

I can't think of a better way to improve events and activity in SL than to have dwell become more coherent, visible, democratic, and participatory in this fashion.

Everybody raves about the voter feature thingie. But that's just a vote. This would be a dollar you spend with your feet!

Everything in SL is already valued in dollars for the most part. Why not this too? Why not become aware that I"m giving somebody 25 cents by spending hours at their lot?

Prokofy,

You are correct, this thread is about dwell and it was my error in asking the question that I did. It seemed to invite the rather hate filled posts aimed at you. I think you were well within your right to ask for a review by Jeska Linden.

As stated in an earlier post, I would like to see more transparency in the current dwell system before I could really consider changing how dwell is done. I appreciate your willingness to help all of us better understand dwell by making your proposal, as it brings out healthy (and yes, even unhealthy) debate.

Please see my post to Prokofy. It was my mistake for asking the question.

Interesting idea but I think it would be of much less benefit to everyone than the current system. The current system is proportional... everyone has so many dwell points that go to the people whose land they spend their time on. All of their points are spent every day whether they're online for ten minutes or ten hours based on the percentage split of where they spent their time. Because of that it can't be calculated until the end of the day. If it was changed to a real time system like you propose the only way to spend all your dwell points would be to stay online for 24 hours straight. Everyone would receive a lot less dwell. Would that be worth it just so you could see how your dwell points ended up being divided? The only remotely similar thing I could see being marginally beneficial would be to get a report the next day of where your dwell points ended up going.

Do people (other than alts gaming the system) actually concern themselves with the dwell they are giving? And if so, why?

I think that if they are, that is contrary behavior to how the system is intended.

If I am entertained by something, I hang around until I am no longer entertained. At that point I go to the next place that entertains me.

If I had a meter that showed the amount of dwell given to a particular place, I may feel compelled to leave earlier than I might have had the meter not been there.

I also suspect that such a system would further burden an already overburdened infrastructure.

It's never a mistake to ask a question.

I was agreeing with you and also responding to Prokofy's assertion that "people are clamoring" for a more TSO oriented structure, especially when it comes to dwell. I haven't seen that. What I have seen is a desire of Prokofy's to make SL more like TSO. He has mentioned wanting TSO like systems in innumerable posts, and I admit, it does get my attention. This is because I do not see TSO as a desirable benchmark by any means. It's not "dumping" on TSO, it's learning from it.

It's my firm belief that TSO's incentive program was way out of whack and that it was a BIG part of the conditions that led to the economic problems that TSO has. If people can afford to shovel out 1000s of simoleans per hour to visitors, this means that the "government's" social programs are overboard.

In response to Prokofy's last response, I agree that LL should handle incentives, for now. I do see that model being moved away from in the long run though, and LL execs have voiced a desire for that to happen. They have been weaning us off support slowly already.

As far as the dwell system is now, I don't see any major issues with it save for the fact that a lot of folks don't understand how it works and who receives it. So I would say yes to more transparency and a clearer explanation of how dwell is calculated. As far as a complete overhaul, especially one based on TSO's incentive program, no thanks.

Currently, the dwell system is set up to be arcane, mysterious, and to mysteriously (so many perceive it) payout huge amounts of US dollars to a very select developers' list.

I think it would be good if some of that wealth trickled down a litte more, was more transparent, was more democratically participatory.

Currently, the way the system works, is that a few big clubs or establishments get all their group members, friends, patrons, partners, etc. in their spam list to sit on their lot for 4-5 hours a night and keep them floating to the top. That isn't "gaming the system" that *is* the system. And it's ok, except that it encourages everybody to stay on one lot and help only one little circle.

I think content could be more varied if your dwell points were visible to you and you could consciously award them by traveling around more. Some people would still elect to hang on one lot and pay it out to that one lot that is their employer/partner/group whatever. But ultimately, the masses would have more participatory democracy to understand how to put their dwell somewhere. Most people don't dwell consciously, and their dwell is scattered in a million tiny pieces that go nowhere. With more awareness of what it is and where it goes, people can say, visit a certain club, store, monument, game, whatever and make sure that event/activity/creator/happening gets rewarded with their dwell. It's a way to infuse more life and understanding into the dwell system.

I don't see why such a system requires you to stay on 24 hours.

I think you have a pay packet, it pays out, and when it is done, it's done. There could be cases to be made for having it tap out after 10 lots and 20 minutes or 1 lot and 60 minutes or how ever you configurate it so that it pays out visible to lots. It can show up the next day if in fact somehow the system requires that, to tabulate after all the day's log ins are pretty much finished or after a maintenance hour or however they do it.




I find this to be the heart of what is wrong with dwell. It means that anyone can take 5 accounts, log them on, put them on the lot of their choice, and have it peak out with meaningless traffic -- traffic generated only by 5 dead souls just logging on for five minutes, spending out their dwell, and logging off. The percentage split of their time, if it all went to one lot, all stacks up on that lot. Naturally, they have no incentive to go anywhere else or do anything else or stay more than 5 minutes because as you say, 10 minutes or 10 hours, their percentage of their dwell will be counted by the Lindens to go toward's that day's pot and payout as it pays out.

This seems like a completely arbitrary and even idiotic system -- rewarding dwell points merely on the basis of a formal log-in, actually working as a disincentive to people who run events with thought and care and try to have them be interesting for 60 minutes. A friend could lot on an alt or 3 and put that person's house up on the top 10 but not even bother to listen to their discussion. Groups could force their members to just log in and boost up the club every day for 5 minutes. I imagine some of this goes on.

I'm stumped as to how to do this technically because I don't know the programming limitations but it seems to me that you can't have inflation by allowing anyone who can log on and keep 24/7 on a lot gets 100 points instead of 10 or whatever. Instead, it would have to tap put some time or it gets to be too big a Linden dollar generator. But I'd like to see the spread be more meaningful, so that this idiocy of "10 minutes or 10 hours" would be removed from the equation, with its confusion and arbitrariness, and be replaced by something that is coherent, conscious, and creditable. You come to a lot. You stay 30 minutes. You see that you spent 1 point and they see they got 1 point. You stay another hour, you spend 2 points, they see 2 points. Or you go to that 2nd lot and give that second point to them.

Having a report of whether the dwell points went is mildly interesting, but doesn't help me spend them more rationally. I'd like to find a way to have a pay packet of 10 dwell points per day that I can consciously award the lots that I find interesting. It's a bit like school vouchers, and for that reason, because it goes against the status quo of the existing amorphous big impersonal dwell payout (with its built in idiocy not unlike public school spending lol), I'm sure it will be condemned by some. Nevertheless, I want to persist in finding out how to make dwell meaningful as an incentive for good content.

There is an option on the right click menu for an avatar and also a button on a resident's profile page and on the friend's menu, I believe, labeled "PAY", that allows one to provide financial support to other's in accordance with whatever scheme they see fit. This method of showing support allows one to set the level of support to their own desires and enables one to be supportive in the proportions of their choice without having to worry about staying in a particular spot for a certain length of time or concerning themself with setting up rules for others to abide by or taking up any of the Linden company's worker's time.

I'll explain it one more time. There are only two options for the way dwell can pay out to landowners. Either it has to be percentage based and proportional, in which case it can only be calculated after the fact, or it has to be payed out at a fixed rate where x amount of time equals x amount of dwell points. That fixed rate would have to be slow enough that if someone was on all day they'd still have dwell points left to go to landowners they didn't visit until the end of the day. Get it? The current system in neither arcane or difficult to understand, and it's more beneficial than a fixed rate system would be.

Hey Prok, I do have to say, you are right about the fact that we really have no real time idea how much dwell we are accruing, but is dwell money really coming out of our own pockets? Are we losing our personal money to stay on someones land? I don't think so myself, unless I am wrong about that too. Its the lindens money that is being distributed, and it is just a matter of how much money they allow of theirs to be distributed among the land owners by one person. And you are right about my comment about how 2 people staying on your land for 20 minutes and then visiting other places don't produce the same dwell.

I propose that everything be by time alone. a set amount of money for every minut each person hangs out on your land. this way, it is fair 100% and not just by where they spent most of their time. so you spend 30 min at a club, then go somewhere else for 10 minutes. You come back to the club and spend another 20 minutes there. You just donated 50 minutes of dwell time to that club personally.

In the beginning of SL time, the idea of dwell was new, and this was the way to make it fair as they saw it. I don't think it was ever really looked at again to revamp. Times change, and so must the way dwell is handled.

Yes I change views when I am wrong. I try to look at a situation from every angle to find the best possible solution instead of just shooting someone down and getting nothing accomplished. Thanx Prok for the thread. I hope the Lindens help us out this time.

Um, yeah, I got it about six months ago when I first studied it and people already answered me with snarky threads back then LOL.

But it *is* arcane, it is confusing, and it is not visible.

Most people don't get it because they can't understand how something could be so "rubbery" as to be paying out a point for five minutes -- if the av only logged for five minutes on one lot and never logged again -- but then still isn't spent by the end of the day if I visite 3 lots and leave dwell on each of them.

Games' idea is that this be routinized more so that you have 120 minutes, you pay 20 here, you pay 30 there, you come back and pay 20 again to the first place, etc. I don't see why that isn't possible.

The idea that it calculates for the next day is just a system convenience. It could be configured to be ongoing and visible, i.e. dynamic, but it would just be a huge programming and performance strain I imagine. That is, it could have a proportionate bais that dynamically moves.

I just don't see why it can't be more simple and literal, i.e. a pay packet you spend out. Instead of constantly explaining over and over what the system is -- which I get already -- explain why the system CANNOT be what I have for some actual technical reason -- I've yet to hear that.

Certainly there is no *economic* argument against my idea I've heard yet. The money doesn't come out of my pocket or stipend, it is Linden money. But it is Linden money allocated and visible in my account as a drawdown. If unused, it goes back. If I don't log on, it doesn't drop down to be drawn upon.

ANYBODY who looks at a system soley on this feature (and brackets out all their emotional loyalties, associations, blah blah) will come to criticize it: that you get and give as much from a five-minute log-on as you do from a 4 hour session in which you visit 1 or 3 lots. That just HAS to change because it is injust, gamed, and unparticipatory.

So any place you visited after you've been online for two hours would get nothing, regardless of how much time you spent there... ergo, it's a dumb idea.

No, because I didn't say that.

I'm saying you have a paypacket that you consciously award. You figure out how to award it because you decide. You make a configuration that is to be discussed -- 10 minutes? 100 points? 10 minutes per 10 points? This has to be arrived at and discussed.

You decide when you log on what you want to reward -- events on the calendar? your friends? Your own group?

You make it your business to go and reward those cites with your 10 minute stay or your 10 point you draw down and put on that lot in some fashion, by either literally being logged on there on that lot, or by pressing on something on that lot (that would be ideal).

Most people don't have a very structured life on SL, they just goof around or travel around a bit.

Imagine if you had control over the dwell payout. As I think of it now, the solution to your issue would be to have it turn on and off as you wish. You arrive on a lot and spend an hour -- but you don't let it run and payout there because you want to save it to payout on a lot you'll be at three hours hence where there's an event at 9 p.m. Having that democratic control over the payout instead of having it hemorrhage out senselessly as you helplessly roam around would be wonderful, no?

Instread of feeling like your dwell was drawining away aimlessly from you merely because you were waiting for something like a friend to come back from AFK, or having to be on the phone yourself, you could consciously turn off the dwell payout and save it, and turn it on when you wanted it to pay out. If you see an hour glass half full, you see you have x amount still to award for that evening, and have to get on the stick, or it will be lost because it deletes and refills every day.

Ahhh I see, you want to take an objective metric and turn it into a system that can be gamed to only benefit your friends or group. How noble. As someone else already pointed out you can do that already. Right click on them and choose "pay."

Sounds like a popularity contest to me. The same clubs you complained about that already get the high dwell will probably get even more, because people can conciously "help" out their favorite club owner. Not to mention, it wouldn't be "dwell" anymore, because it has nothing to do with time spent at a given location.

I think part of the problem is that folks will go to a place that hands out free money 24 hours a day, run a macro or jam something in their keyboard to avoid being auto logged out, and suck up the L$ while they are at work or asleep. They likely don't think about what dwell the owner gets very much, beyond that it is tied to why they can get money for sitting unattended all night. These type of activities can poison a MMOE/G's economy. I saw it happen in UO, TSO, and with some that are now defunct like MCO. In fairness to UO, I have been told by friends who still play UO, that it has improved, and I am happy to hear that.

I think if LL addressed this issue, perhaps by tweaking the code a bit so that it can detect a macro program, or a key that is repeating the same character non-stop, we would see a change in the behavior of both the owners and the customers, and dwell can return to it's intended role in SL.

It is a popularity contest no matter how you look at it. Property owners rely on their popularity (dwell) to bring in retailers, shoppers and just plain visitors. I know I look at a particular place's dwell when I am deciding whether or not to shop there. Dwell is a major factor, but not the only factor in determining that.

One of my retailers pointed out that Night Mountain has a higher dwell than a lot of telehub malls and other malls she is located at. I pride myself on that. I work very hard and spend most of my income on making sure that people want to come to Night Mountain, to be retailers, shop, live and yes, to be campers.

If it weren't a popularity contest, why would SL have a PG and Mature Most Popular list? So what if I give cash incentives for those who want to live at and visit Night Mountain? As long as everyone is happy, who really cares?

As I have stated before, the only way to rid ourselves of these myths that property owners get large some of money each day for their dwell (I get less than 10% of my daily property expenses from dwell payouts) is to make dwell more transperent. Instead of it being so cryptic, let it be more forthright.

Prokofy has an idea for making it more transparent. Is it the right idea? Who knows. At least he has taken the time to propose a way of making it transparent. For that, I have to give him kudos.

SL is a game, but like all games, the rules have to be a bit more understandable and the rules for dwell definitely need to be more understandable, to all.