SL economy in trouble?!

Enabran, I agree! And am quite happy to see that... SO FAR....
Several people seem to be blowing this idea off because there
is no problem RIGHT NOW, but I never said there was a problem
at them moment. I bring this up[ because I see the potential
for a huge problem arising.

There are several advantages to require prim resources be harvested,
and the "copy forever, with no labor" permission removed:

1) It will reduce by 99% the probability that someone will reproduce
a replica of a content sellers items and give away infinite copies
for free - hurting business and economy.

2) It will reduce the total about of just plain free items in the world
which hurt business, because with 3,000 free items at Yadni's
Junkyard alone, and thousands more stattered about, with more
and more created every day... most "gamers" and socialites are
going to make do the best they can with the free items and never
(or rarely) buy things from content creators. This is NOT saying
people will never buy... as current creators are indeed seeing
a bit of money flowing in, but just exactly how few people are buying
to those who aren't? (of course I expect socialists to be opposed
to my idea)

3) It provides new people with the opportunity of a mindless job
which takes no skills... Go harvest liquid prim for half an hour
and sell it to the warehouse markert for a little quick spending
cash. And if new people have a way of earning a little cash they
are more likely to stick around in SL and they will also have
money to buy more things and pay for more services!

4) Linden Labs should like this because they could set up a warehouse
selling liq-prim themselves for greater income.

I could go on.. the advantages are many.

So, what are the disadvantages?

1) Some people say "It's never worked like that before, and
I'm afraid of change".

2) "I'm a content seller, and introducing a cost of labor for my items
means I won't make as much or have to raise the prices".
--- to this, I say.. "yes... probably", but the benifits you gain
outweigh either option here... I'm talking something very marginal,
like $1/prim.



Gabrielle

Simple soution: FIX THE PERMISSIONS SYSTEM.

(No I know.. it's not that simple which is why it is likely we will have to wait months and months for them to fix this horrible system. The current system seems like a lazy or ignorant developer was used to create the system. On a daily basis I am mortified with what I have to do to package my products "safely" and it always ends up being worse for the consumer because the only way to protect my products and technologies, is to limit the global permissions of the items.)

I never meant to imply that all people creating freebie object were out
to harm the SL economy. I did say that SOME might... but I also pointed
out that others (like your friend) could harm the economy in the same
way just out of their generousity.

If Crystalshard is a friend of yours, then I wonder how objective you
are on the side of labor costs being required for manufacturing items?



This is a silly example... where I live I get.. oh.. maybe EIGHT
broadcast channels for free.. With Cable I get HUNDREDS!
If broadcast TV had the same number of channels and programming
for free, are you suggesting people would still pay for cable?
Personally, I think everyone would take the free option, and
the cable companies would go out of business.


Gabrielle

"The problem (as I see it) is in the "copy" permission."

Does not the other permission you neglected to mention render the entirity of this thread academic? The "No Transfer" permission leaves the whole of your point rather moot then doesn't it? Or am I missing something?

Almost all the sellers you mention use it, Cubey in particular. "Copy" permissions are in fact absolutely critical in an enviroment as hostile to vehicles as SL sometimes can be.

An example, if your 800 L$ plane's seating script goes wonkey crossing a sim border, isn't it nice to be able to delete said plane and merely rez another dulicate in its place rather than having to purchase another 800 L$ plane to replace the broken or lost one? (This happens quite frequently given the state of the asset server currently).

Neat huh? Also allows for keen lil' things like updating previously purchased items without having to go back and either buy them again, manually go about taking a new one, or any other tripe. The creator can simply update all as she or he sees fit.

It's an interesting arguement hon, but it falls completely on its face with the no transfer permission.

One of the MAIN thing that drives the economy of FL is our NEEDS.
I NEED food. Most people would say they NEED a house, transportation,
toilet paper, etc.

It's because of these NEEDS that people get jobs for the money to
buy these things. THAT drives business.

What is there in SL that we NEED?
For Second Life's economy to succeed there must be some need.
If it's not there right now, it should be added.
Adding labor costs to rez a prim would provide that.

The Lindens are changing SL all the time as they see things that
aren't working the way they are now. This is an area that needs
critical examination... and probably a change as well.


Gabrielle

My point exactly... with no labor costs the bottom price IS $0 !
Yep.. great for business.




Sounds very socialistic... I hope that's not the plan.
In FL, people have NEEDS which companies can provide for a charge.
In SL, we have no needs, and people will always choose NOT to spend
money if given an equal (or comparable) free option.

If the continued reproduction costs of an item is $0, then after the
original time investment of creating the item has been compensated
for, then the items competitive cost could go all the way down to $0.

This is another way where the market could ultimately be flooded
by free items from highly skills content creators who get in to a
pricing war. Right now in FL, there is a minimum dollar amount
for every item sold, because of labor costs. As you said... in a free
market the prices will fall to those lowest levels when faced
with competition. Again, if the lowest price is $0, then why would
these content creators stick around in SL when better money
could be made in FL ?

Gabrielle

They tried charging per prim. Everyone hated it.

It takes a long time to build anything. If you can't sell multiple copies, it's not worth building most things.

That's about the size of that.

There is a decades-old multi-billion dollar industry out there that selling "pixels on a screen". It's called "television".

I think the notion that "content" is just bytes in a database or pixels on a screen, and that somehow makes it "not merchandise", is a flawed analogy. A Brittany Spears CD is just bytes on a disk. When you rent a DVD from Blockbuster, its just bytes. (You are only borrowing the bytes.) I don't hear anyone saying Blockbuster Video isn't a valid business model because all they do is rent out bytes on disks.

Buster

YAY! Someone beat me to the punch!

There we go, I was about to post the same thing about the transfer permissions. I think this goes just a little further though buddy. Here is what I see.

I make a toilet, and I want it to be free to all newbies. I set copy permissions so that you can make as many copies of the toilet as you want. I also want to allow them to freely give the toilet to a friend if they want. "Hey check out this awesome toilet, I think you can use it. Don't forget to wipe!"

Problem, when I set transfer permissions, it also allows that same person to set it for sale at any price they want. So, there is a simple solution!

LINDEN LABS... Please put an "ALLOW RESALE" option on the prim properties so we can close this thread!

My premiere product right now took six weeks to develop.

Several hours of texture, building and general construction work. Countless more hours spent on scripting and research on best practices to achieve desired results. Four weeks of intensive, daily quality assurance testing by both myself, my scripter, two volunteer QA testers. Several hours more for permissions testing and troubleshooting. More hours were spent texturing and building the packaging and delivery system. An hour to write documentation. Two hours on launch day reworking existing displays, signage and other marketing across all my store locations to accomodate the new product.

Are you to tell me that no labor cost was involved in the creation of my product?

edit: Much more importantly, how easy do you really think it's going to be for someone to duplicate that effort?

Let me ask you one last thing Gabby. You talk and talk and talk about labor charge. Are you worried about the creator not geting due money for the item, or the item flooding the market. If we were to go with prim juice, who would get the money? would the creator of the item get the cash equivilent of the amount of prim juice used to rez the item? Would the creator be given the prim juice that was spent rezing the item?

It sounds to me that you opened this thread on a whim without actually doing any research, or coming up with a clear explination of what you are trying to propose.

If you are saying that we all need to use prim juice to rez a prim to build an item and not just to rez an item itself, you are way off. I rez and delete hundreds of prims when I build. If something doesn't look right, I delete it and try something else. That would be a lot of wasted prim juice.

If you are saynig that you only need prim juice to rez a free or purchased copiable item from inventory, than maybe you might have had something. Trust me, I was here when IGE was Buying L$ for US$17 per 5K block. I saw it reach over US$23 and now it currently stands at US$19. The economy rises and falls in SL just like in RL. it has nothing to do with "OMG! we have way too many free items in SL!"

Look for the simple solutions to the problems in SL instead of trying to add a feature for V2.0 to the current SL. I don't think this will ever fly in SL as building was meant to be free.
So instead of making them reprogram half the game, we just nicely ask for an added feature of already existing prim permissions.

OK, so I think I am done here. I can't think of anything else to add at this time.

Thank you for your attention.

This is the same impression I am given.

And what's wrong with that ? I can sell at 1L$ and still make a profit (assuming my R&D costs are covered) ! There's NO socialism in that. In fact even IRL free market and innovation will pull all prices down, fast (in the form of improved buying power to the average Joe, and demultiplied productivity). It's perfectly normal, and you shouldn't be afraid of it. That's what is bound to happen anyway. I suggest you read Joe Haldemann's "Forever Peace" for an example of your suggestion of adding cost to what is free, applied to a real world where everything suddendly costs 0; and Iain Banks books for the opposite, a society where everything is free and NO artificial scarcity is introduced.

Memir,
Thanks for the well thought out reply.
I think yours is one of the first that actually presents
some technical reasons against doing this.

Actually my idea is more about adding a labor cost
with rezzing prims more than anything else.

Personally, I don't like the "no transfer" permission either.
If I pay for an item (and now own it), I should be able to
give it away, resell it for less when I'm done with it to try
and recoup expenses, or try to resell it for more to make
a profit.

The reason creators add this permission now is because
they also grant copy and modify permission on their items
and they do not want someone creating infinite numbers
of duplications and reselling or giving them away for free.

My idea solves this problem as well.





True, but I'm not suggesting that you only have access to one physical
copy that, once damaged, it's permanently messed up.

I'm suggesting that when you buy 1 plane, you get 1 plane.
You can have a single rezzed "copy" of that plane at any given time.
If you want 2 rezzed planes, you need to buy 2 planes.
You can do anything you'd like (or accident) to your rezzed copy,
but not affect the "real" plane in your inventory.... just as someone
can edit a document all day, but it doesn't really change until you
save it... in this case, if you select to "take" the rezzed copy you have
optioned to replace the original with your new version (permanently).
If you don't want the changed/damaged version, delete the rezzed "copy".
If you later find out your modifications have messed it up, then you can
re-edit the plane and fix it... if you can't fix it, then you need to take it
to someone who can fix it (and they may charge), or you can buy a
new copy... this is exactly what happens in FL right now. If I buy 1 TV,
I own 1 TV, I can take it apart and "make it better"... but if I break it,
then I need to have someone fix it, or buy a new one. (Repair services
and replacements also drives economy)

I am allowed to make as many "links" to the single plane as many
times as I'd like in my inventory. So, if I want to put a link/entry
of it in 3 different folders, I can... but all links are pointing to the
single plane I own.

I think this addresses the issue you gave above.




Yes, my above example shows the buyer can make changes to
the item they purchased... just like in FL, if I buy that computer
system, I can open it up and make whatever changes I want.
I also have the option of then giving it away or reselling it....
but.. only the ONE copy!

Since I am suggesting the "copy" permission be removed, then it
means I am not able to make a 2nd separate and detached copy
of the computer, or plane I bought... and if that item is part
of what I'm trying to sell, then I'll need to go buy another of
Cubey's planes, make my modification again, and resell that.

This opens the doors for whole new resale markets and manufacturing
markets, while keeping content designers in business.

For example... if we have a house-frame designer, home-security
system designer, interior decorator, etc... each running their
own businesses, then someone could in, find the creators they
want to work with, buy products from each of them and put them
together in a single "complete home package" for resale.

If there is a "no transfer" permission, then this could not be done.
If there is a way to make infinite copies with no labor charge, then
creators ultimately can get screwed, so they already are turning
off "copy".. which is part of what I'm suggesting.
There seems to be a problem with the "modify" permission in that
if someone can modify your item, then they can use special scripts
to break it down in to it's parts and (because of the no-labor-costs)
in rezzing new prims, they can instantly have a duplicate at no charge
defeating the setting of "no copy".

But I think things SHOULD be able to be modified by the owner
either so they can lean how things are made, and make new/better
things, or so they can adjust their item to their own tastes, as we
have that ability in FL, we should have it in SL.

It also means the company putting together the "complete
home package" can make their own modifications to various
parts of each original content creator... giving their own value-add
before resale.



I think a few of my above examples show why it's very good
to allow re-transfer of items... as long as you cannot re-create
an infinite number of copies at no labor cost, the original content
creators should be fine with transfer/resale of thier single copy
they sold... as long as it remains just one item floating around.
If someone else wants one, of if someone wants to hand out
multiple.. then they will need to buy multiple.

Did I miss any of your points?

Gabrielle.

I did not mean it that way. television is a way of communication and we pay for the service. But it still is only pixels on a screen, nothing more. any extra meaning attached to it resides solely in our head. The same way that talking can be reduced to changes in air density over time. The meaning of the sounds is in our head.

If I make a prim cube in SL, what did I really make?

People attach a value to things according to their own concept of what they need/want. It's all philosophical really, like everything else.

I'm afraid I went too far off topic on this one. I apologise if I did not contribute anything positive.

I hate it that in FL I have to buy another hamburger every time
I'm hungry too. I also hate that I have to keep buying new
socks as they wear out. I hate that I need to keep adding more and
more gas to my car as I use it up.

There are things we all hate... but we would get use to the change
and deal with it. Some things that we dont like are actually really
better for us than the things we do like.

The one thing you touched on that DOES have an impact on what
the Lindens will do, is the fact that right now, with SL being as
small as it is... and real business (I mean big time corporations)
have not had a chance to take-hold yet... then new content
creation might indeed slow down, and the Lindens want people
to be as free as possible right now to create all the in-world
content for them, so they don't have to hire/pay FL employees
to do that work. It's much better for them that we create these
items at no cost to them, rather than pay L$2500-L$5000/hr
(USD $10-20/hr) to an out-of-world employee.

I don't know if NOW is the time or not, but once real business
takes hold enough, then it won't matter, because creators
will still be happy creating tons of items that they resell and
make a profit for... it wont stop them.

The problem is that SL will not be able to bring in
this "big business" if real companies see that without
labor charges, the free market will bring their prices
(and profits) down to $0.


Your points are silly... in FL it takes time to make a car,
a computer, a hamburger, etc. Once you make one
you can only sell one... so make another, and another,
each taking time and money... yet... amazingly people
still do this in First Life???

Gabrielle

Socks aren't infinitely copyable. Bytes are.

whoa -

No your idea doesnt solve this problem.

If your idea was in place, I could buy an item from some creator and open up a factory and churn out copies just as easily as the content creator.

All id have to do is harvest prim juice or whatever.

If I was really enterprizing i could get a huge prim juice harvesting system going and esentially Rob ANY content provider blind by simply producing faster/more effeciently then they could.

I think what this idea is , is a way to create an artificial scarcity.

Its a common MMORPG money sink idea.

Ack!
I never meant to imply the CREATION of any items did not involve
labor costs. I am trying to emphasize that now that you have spent
that time creating you product, how much will it cost you to make 1
copy of 100,000 copies?

Let's say you are making US$3,000/mo at your FL job.... then we could
say that the 6weeks you spent on this was equivelant to about US$4,500
worth of your time. Once you sell enough copies of your product to
make up for that, than you break even. Anything above that is extra
continued profits for no additional work on your part. Some people might
be happy with that and say "I've made my money back, no need for
more income, I'll give away the item now... or sell it for a super low cost".

At the point you break even you it's not as important to make even more.

I think most sane people will try to make as much as they can, but
let's add the REAL possibilty of someone else in-world (like Crystalshard
has done with the TV) seeing your item and wanting to do that themselves.
They put in 6 weeks of their own, but then either give an infinite number
of copies away, or sell it for half the price that you do. People who shop
around would probably choose the half-priced version of a product as long
as all (or most) things are equal... we see this in FL all the time.

Your business then drops off... perhaps WELL before you've re-couped
your US$4,500 in "time spent".. and as the way Free Market systems
work... you reduce your price to be competive (no taking twice as long
or longer to recover). This price war could keep going lower and lower
until finally $0, because ultimately there are people like Crystalshard
who might not really care about money as much as you, and since
it costs nothing to make a million copies, they do.

If Crystalshard was required to buy a gallon of liq-prim for every prim
in his TV, he might think twice about giving a million away for free,
while you would just add that in to your cost of doing business.

Gabrielle

Prim liquid mining?? ahh no thanks... anyone who plays in the persistent world of Project entropia, will recognise the idea of mining a list of rare commodity before you can create things and the incredible problems and difficult work that exists in such mining, trading skill and commodity based games. SL is a creative wonderful universe not a skilling up game where trades and levels have to be gained to create objects or fashions etc. It is your own natural skill and hard work and imagining that makes your work stand out if u create here.

The entire beauty of SL is that it is not an RPG game, it is (at best) 'another place' a world of dreams, imagination, creativity, science and art, where our limitations are just what we cannot yet imagine or yet discover how to create. I do not want to change the infinite challenge and variety of Sl to be like PE, Neocron or other MMORPG games.

Prims are the building blocks of life the DNA of SL. I rejoice in that I can magic them up out of the air and turn them into anything from a pair of chopsticks to a sim-wide japanese village and surrounds. The world is fine as it is. As for creation, copying, and great artists giving away their wares... well.. so... what? People and their minds will JUST create NEW things, NEW ideas, NEW products, NEW art, NEW fashions....


Creativity will not go away. When everyone has skins, fashions etc etc, they will look for other things, There will always be meaning beyond mere owning things also for many to seek. And even when you own the latest object of desire.... someone makes a newer hotter different also desirable thing to own.

When everyone who could afford such things gained a car, a TV a video did the world stop.. no, people invented DVD, cellphones, internet, I-Pods, and many many objects of desire. Same in SL. Do not forget that anyone who creates one great thing can usually create 10 great things. Once there was I think ONE visionary person whop made vendors, Bozozoku Kato I think.. then many made vendors....then people made Holo vendors and so on... and Bozo now makes new equally creative new idea and systems. Same with all products.

Its a pyramid of needs and desire. There will be times when everyone has custom skins sure... but by then a custom skin will be an ' ordinary' thing, maybe even just another Linden free option, and so prices will be low, and new ideas will emerge that people strive to afford.

Let's not place limits on creativity, as that is the KEY point of SL. The only change I want in prims is to have MORE of them!!! more per metre of land limit will be increased again one day as promised by Lindens, I hope.

Damn... Now I have to jump in again...

First of all, if you are making US$3K a month in a RL job, I highly doubt you are worried about making a minor profit in a game, nonetheless have time for it. I have no idea where you are trying to come from on this, but as I said before in one of my previous posts, you seem to have not thought this through at all, and posted this thread on a whim idea.

The more you talk in this thread, the less credible you make your initial statement and yourself. You obviously have no idea what SL is about, and are trying to make a change that would obviously hurt SL, and make people leave.

My advice to you is to close this thread, go home and think about what you have said and done here. Maybe take a better look at how SL operates, and then look at your plan again. If by some miricle your plan would actually work, you need to formulate the plan in a clear and precise manner so everyone would be able to look at it and fully understand what your plan is, instead of your plan changing and being modified throughout this thread.

I apologize for being harsh, but this plan is looking more and more idiotic as this thread continues on. Please go home and come back with a better plan.

Sorry, Games. This IS a complex idea of how it all would work.
Also, it is something that is pretty much required if we are ever
going to expect big-business to get a foot-hold in SL and start
developing content. I think I've seen posts from you that indicate
you feel SL is just a game... which is a fine viewpoint for you to
have... content creators would love to have real businesses which
provide content allowing you to have fun in your "game".
But, because I think you take the side of SL being a game, then
I don't know if you have an open mind to what would be best
for the business of content creators in-world.

Besides this idea not being liked by people who don't want to
see "business" or capitalism in SL, my idea would also require
a change to how SL current works on a fundamental level, and
in general, people fear change. Besides THAT fact, you are
correct in that I just might not be able to express ALL the aspects
of this complex problem very clearly here in the forums, and
people also fear the unknown. And finally, on top of that,
I'm not saying I have ALL the answers myself.. which is part of
the reason for the post in the first place... to toss around ideas
and see what other people thought.





I think what I'm worried about is that in-world content creation
businesses will/could be harmed by the way SL is currently set
up, in that it's POSSIBLE for Free Market price wars, residents
who want to "get even" with a content creator, or even just
generous freebie giving creators could cause prices for items
to reach $0, and with infinite copies at $0, there's not room
for businesses to make a profit, and so they will move
back to First Life or other MMO's that are more pro-business
oriented to create their good. Don't think Second Life will
always be the only MMO of it's kind, and if there's one that
sets "rules/permissions" up in such a way that content creators
can make more money, I'm sure they'll go there. Just like you
would rather work for a company making $50/hr, rather than $25/hr.

I am VERY eager to see Second Life accel as a metaverse.
The idea of people "living their lives" here in SL rather than
in FL -- including earning their living, really interests me greatly!

I'd like to see the awesome content creators we have stay here,
and if SL offered more potential reward than FL, we might see
even more talented people quit their FL jobs and come to work
in SL.

Does that better answer your question on where I'm coming from?





Well, someone would have to harvest the prime juice in the
first place... Let's say this would be a mindless task and take
5-15 seconds to harvest a gallon. (I have given the specific
amount of time NO thought, so please just use it as an example).

The person doing the harvest would expect payment for their
time.... so they could sell it and get money. The content creator
could harvest their own and forgo this cost, but they'd pay in time.

The content creator would then build their item. If the end product
required 20 prims, then they'd need 20 gallons of prim-juice for
each duplicate they made.

They, or anyone, who owned an item made up of 20 prims could
modify, rearrange, add to, take away any of the prims in the
complete object (they would own it, just like you could by a computer
and modify it at home). If you added a prim to it, then it would cost
another gallon of juice. If you took out, or didn't need a prim, then
that gallon would be added back to your stockpile.

Does that make the process more clear?




I AM saying that to rez a prim it would take a gallon of juice, yes...
but "deleting" a prim would ony mean putting it back in your stockpile
of prim juice for later use... not losing it forever.

I would also suggest that people can use sandboxes as a place to
experiement, and that you could rez as many prims as you'd like
inside the sandbox, but those prims could never be taken with you,
or leave the sandbox. if you created something cool, and had
enough gallons of prim juice right then, you could select "take"
and the item would be moved to your inventory and the proper
number of gallons reduced from your juice. If you did NOT have
enough gallons at the time, you could select "make blueprint"
and it would record all the prims and settings needed to recreate
your object later.




If you own 1 airplane in your inventory then you can rez 1 copy,
yet you can have many inventory links to it, so that it could be
seen in several different folders.
If you gave it away as a freebie, then you're giving away the
molded prim-juice. You can not make a duplicate to give away
unless you use more prim-juice to make the copy.... this is
where we are applying labor charges, and keeping people from
giving away a million duplicates at no cost.

We do not want to complicate the matter by saying only certain
types of items rez a certain way.





The economy you are refering to is only tied to land.
I'm not suggesting there is any problem with the "land" aspect
of the economy although THAT may have it's own problems.
Land cannot be infinately copied and given away by residents.
and it's that exact fact that gives it value!

Content creators do not have this same luxury, as their
items can be duplicated, and then mass produced at $0 cost
bringing Free Market prices to $0 profit.



Building was NOT meant to be free from what I understand.
LL originally did have a cost involved with rezzing prims!
The problem at the time was that there were not enough
people in SL to make it work.... no one was turning themselves
in to big production companies to make it happen.

Bringing back the labor cost involved with rezzing a prim
is not a new idea, nor is it complex to implement.

The ONLY reason LL might not want to do this right now on
their own is because SL might still be new fragile to make
it happen and still keep the content creators we have who
are building/creating Second Life content for Linden Labs
for free. Any reasonable business will continue to survive
in SL with labor costs added in to their products, just as this
is done by companies now in FL.

I hope this had made things more clear.

I know some people who want SL to be a game, or full
of "play money" or socialist might never agree with what
I'm saying here, but hopefully content providers will
see we need that change, and it will not affect business
for them.

Gabrielle

Im very curious why its always people who have been here for 1 month who come up with the "revolutionary" economic theories.

Snakekiss, I had exactly the same thought.

The beauty of SL is that it sets creative powers free, and that is the point, to me. Hands off our creative powers.