Well Known Land Baron Manipulating Auctions!!

Depends on what their land trading bank account looks like. It could be a disastar, or a loss leader. Especially with the ante being raised to $1,000.00 minimum bid to come in the door.

edit to clarify "loss leader":

If one could go on doing it for long enough, and ESPECIALLY while LL is allowing people to retract a bid they win and don't like for a small fee, all of the $1,000.00 flat-rate sims that would follow this move could very well make up for it.



-Shaun

Ellie,

There is a PG telehub literally bordering Lida. The sim in question is merely in very good eyesight of a telehub.



-Shaun

Buster - I guess the skill would lie in nearly paying too much, but not quite winning. Like in the Cristat auction.

But no-one is actually laying this as an accusation.
And you do see how the withdrawal penalty could be exploited against a rival? Though thats not an accusation either, just a concern - it could be done by someone in the future.

You're in this sim-buying game, Buster. You must have looked. Do these relative valuations look right ? Seems Anshe decided:

Cristat: 1999 (her losing bid)
Lida: 1799 (her losing bid)
Daphnis: not more than 1476 (1751 her declined win, less 175 penalty less 100 my estimate of her reluctance to inconvenience others)

I think I have these right.

If Daphnis looks definitely worth close to what she declined to pay for it, in comparison with the other two, it would cast doubt on her explanation.

If it looks as in these estimates, it confirms what she says.

Accusation implies that something wrong is being done. Is using the above tactic wrong? I have seen it termed "manipulating the market". Another way of phrasing it is "protecting your assets". If I had as much invested as Anshe, I would "protect my assets".

As far as pulling out of the auction, people make mistakes. Until that mistake is repeated a little too often, you can't read it as any more.

Ok, I just looked at all three sims. I can see why the rank order of desirability is more or less in line with the estimates.

I think we gave Jamie and Shaun's concerns decent consideration, but my own conclusion is that nothing dubious went on here with regard to the Daphnis withdrawal. I wouldn't have tarnished my bidding record for a mere 2 or 300 dollars, but hey - its looking after the pennies makes you megarich, I've heard (allong with some other stuff ).

I'm still amazed anyone thinks they can sell the stuff on at these rates. Obviously expecting a market recovery. Or else just keeping the price high as a barrier to others, but it hard to see how one could risk the massive ongoing losses this could entail. Though a bus company in the uk did the opposite (ludicrously low fares and several buses clustered around each of the victims vehicles) and wiped out every competitor. Stagecoach now has a near country-wide monopoly. But they concentrated on one local area at a time, and hiked the prices the moment the competition folded. I find such practice utterly loathsome. Just as an aside - the chief executive was a woman, so it isnt always the men who are the business agressors. But the auctions here are too open to any newcomer to make it easy. It'd take a massive investment. And be hugely obvoius unless two or three very rich barons co-operated.

The thing of value which has come out of this is the realisation that what the second bidder has to pay (more or less the very amount the withdrawer declined) is too high, and could allow an unscrupulous withdrawer to game the system if they were rich enough to accept the 10% penalty to harm the opposition. I think we should agitate for this to be changed. And keep our eyes open if it isn't - as Shaun suggests. I also think such auctions should be flagged, but NOT removed from our sight.

I make no apologies for having looked into this. The price of something-or-other is eternal vigilance. I'm glad to see Anshe is coming to accept this, and has taken it in good part, without feeling too offended. When you get this powerful such scrutiny is to be expected, and unoffended (if a little weary) cooperation is the correct attitude to take.

After exposing devious little deeds on this thread, a negrate was orchastrated against me.
How Mature.

Read all about it http://www.sluniverse.com/forums/Topic5641-18-1.aspx

This is not true. See Doc Nielson's post in the thread here http://www.sluniverse.com/forums/Topic5628-18-1.aspx

One of you is fibbing.

Seems to me you deserve to be neg rated.....also seems you have a problem keeping your nose out of other peoples business.....

I don't see how the withdrawal penalty could be exploited against a rival.

How about we get rid of the monetary penalty for backing out on a winning bid? Allow anyone to back out, but simply ban them from the auctions for a month or two.

When are the Lindens going to back up their promise of sims on demand anyway? Anyone? Bueller?

Well in this case it isn't me - and I don't think ***** made a 'mistake' in the cases I mentioned in that post.
It's very convinent for a bulk buyer to be able to leave claiming land for a couple of weeks to avoid extra tier when the market is slow. Particularly when the land (that I know about in this instance) amounted to over half a sim.

Though seeing as this reduces LL's income, I'm very surprised they allow this to happen. Indeed ISTR seeing an old thread in which the practice was deplored and it was stated, firmly, that it would no longer continue - possibly someone could dig it up if they were interested?

As far as your attempting to drag me into your dispute against ***** goes, I'd appreciate it if you would refrain. My post in another forum ( http://www.sluniverse.com/forums/Topic5628-18-1.aspx ) was a reply to a question by another poster in which I was setting out my own and my partner's experiences regarding coming second in an auction.
I don't have an axe to grind against *****, so please don't try and make it look as if I do by starting your reply 'Yes' implying there is agreement between us - there isn't.

If ***** wants to play games by exploiting the way LL have implemented the system, that's fine by me. If she made a genuine mistake, well, it cost her *SHRUG*, so what?

She's someone I regularly do business with, not someone I try and undermine - hopefully anyone reading the post in question will realise this and that my only gripes about both unfortunate episodes were at LL's willingness to break their own terms and conditions.

Ok, you got negrated - big deal! No one with half a brain cares about ratings, they are meaningless. Stop being so childish and get on with life.

_______________________

And, on a lighter note (thankfully), further to comments elsewhere in this thread about the prices being paid for entire sims - it does indeed seem to be madness, I simply can't see how the prices paid thus far can be viable in the present market, or indeed in any forseeable market...

Price fixing? Attempted market manipulation? Can't see it myself, there's just too much money being poured into dubious investments at the moment - time will tell.

I am paying 6000 US$ per month tier for land that nobody is using, that uses zero server resources in terms of prims and scripts and creates zero customer support tickets. If I leave now, would you be willing to pay that tier instead?

Linden staff check once per week on auction land that is older than 7 days and send reminders. 24 hours later they reclaim the land and refund 80% of sales price. I won thousands of land auctions and until yesterday all land was claimed. Please understand that after watching other land barons default on their land again and again it is kinda frustrating to be the one to get called out and slandered when making one honest mistake after 14 months of flawless record.

Btw, the second and third highest bidder on this auction were offered the sim for what they bid and both refused to buy it. I would be interested to know why they bid 1700$ and 1750$ respectively and then suddenly no longer want sim for that price!

So long as they refuse to buy as second bidder (as Shaun did), you have not forced them to pay more than they would have without you, thats true.
But if they take the "second-bidder" offer, you have forced them to pay more than you yourself thought it worthwhile to pay.

It's cost you, but you have done them over.

For my mind. Autions are not hard.

You want it, bid for it! If you don't want it. Then don't BID!

If you wanna play chicken 'On your own head be it!'

If you win.. "Woo for you." If you lose.. "Oh dear, Sorry but told you so.".


"Life is full of ricks but a true business person can see ricks as simple yes and no's instantly."

The rest of your post seems fair to me, Anshe.

But I think I can answer this last interesting question of yours. I know it's strange, but I think every (smaller) auction winner, when bidding, relies on the reassurance of knowing s/he will never pay more than $1 above what another person thinks it worth. If he finds he is about to do so - that fundamental reassurance is gone, and he may refuse.

It also has something to do with you yourself, Anshe. You are so big, your bids have the effect of determining a sort of "standard price". If you back away, we feel, then surely the price IS too high.

Another angle. My biggest chunk of land, I got in auction, and paid $1 more than your bid (long time ago). Not only did this make me feel safe on resale value (fool!). But I wanted it bad. I studied the bid pattern and timings as you auto-overbid me, and I concluded (correctly) that my only competitor was a big baron, and probably you, and therefore knowledgeable and rational.

Because of this I took the huge risk of bidding stupidly high, relying on you to fix the correct price for me to pay. It was you - the strategy worked. God help me if I had met another moron (ie another me) playing the same dangerous game.

So you see, what people put in as their max bid is not always what they would be happy to pay in the absence of other bidders. Might be true for you, but not necessarily for us.

Isn't it all fun ?

Oh damn, now you're going to randomize your bidding pattern and timings, aren't you, Anshe? NOT! I don't think you need care.

Looks like you came up clean again, girl....................

Seriously, Anshe my friend, do you never wonder if you aren't perhaps just a little tiny bit crazy ? Or maybe an adrenalin Junkie. I just can't understand placing that much trust in LL. Don't worry - I don't really expect an answer. Just musing in amazement.
Mind you, my last RL g/f was chinese, pure chinese but american. Not a gwilo to be seen anywhere in her ancestry. I loved her to bits, but I mused in amazement at her too. Often. Oh, and I can't forget her beautiful hair.......

Whoops - just stop this Ellie, right NOW !
______

Edit - how do you spell it ? Guilo? Gwylloe? She told me it meant "bad ghost". That's you and me, non-chinese brothers and sisters........ That seems pretty fair too.

Explanatory re-edit - Anshe's main avatar seems to be a beautiful chinese lady, in case you've never met her.

Regardless of whether you win or take the second chance, you wouldn't have bid more than you were willing to pay. I am happy when I win at auction, or I wouldn't have bid that much.

I think what you are talking about is "shill bidding" -- where somebody bids for the sole purpose of causing others to pay more. For example, if the bid is 100 and somebody thinks another bidder will go 150, they bid 140 to provoke the other bidder to go at least 141. That is a game of chicken, because they might guess wrong about how much another bidder would go and end up winning something they didn't really want.

Shilling is specifically against the TOS.

I don't think Anshe does that. When she bid 2000, she didn't think somebody else would pay 2001. No shill would ever go THAT high.

I also doubt anyone could get away with repeatedly backing out of auctions. Anybody who did that more than once would get a severe talking-to, and anybody who did it repeatedly would be kicked off the auctions.

Buster

Hey! Come on Anshe... first of all my comments about previous auctions appear in another forum, surely that's the place to take it up, not here?
And, as I keep saying, I'm no enemy of yours, I do business with you, remember?
However...



Um, what's that got to do with anything? Besides, I don't recall that I or anyone else twisted your arm to sign up for all that tier... (told you not to spend it all at once when I bought that island off you, didn't I?).


Anyway, what on earth are you sitting on 30 unused sims worth of land for? Either you know something we don't, or you are sticking your neck out big time... Hmmm, wonder which?



Um, this may be where we fall out I'm afraid.
That just didn't happen in the cases I mentioned.
What I said still stands, and I have documentary proof concerning it.

In the cases I mentioned in my post in the SLUniverse forumse, you definitely did not claim within 7 days, you were allowed to go well over 8 and 10 days respectively - and, as I said previously I blame this entirely on LL, if they don't enforce their terms and conditions and you are able to take advantage of their indolence, inefficency or whatever, more power to you.
I didn't like the situation, but neither do I attach any blame to you for exploiting it - indeed, I would do exactly the same myself!

Yup, that must be annoying, but there's zero tolerance for annoyed people round here - as I've found out!



Hmmm, interesting to speculate Anshe, maybe the red haze lifted a little and they did some basic arithmetic and realised their bids were actually unfeasible?

Buster, in post 40 just up above, I discuss in detail this question of if and when someone might fairly complain if forced to their own maximum bid by someone who subsequently withdraws. I don't want to go through it again, but if you have a look, you might find at least part of it persuasive that things are not quite as clearcut as you suggest.

In essence, withdrawal of the winner deprives his replacement of what an auction properly promises. That he cannot pay more than $1 in excess of what someone else was willing to pay.

Any particular reason (other than "that just isn't the way they do it" not to offer the second place bidder the third place bidder's price + $1?

It's not too difficult, is it, to choose a better rule, but at present you pay your own maxbid, it seems. Just $1 less than what the withdrawer declined to pay. Definitely not right, and opens the door to possible abuse.

It seems that a suspension or even a ban from bidding for repeat offenders, in addition to the monetary penalty, would dissuade people from trying to game the system through bogus bidding.

My Gawd! Anshe Chung picked up some piece of land not after 7 days but after 8 or 10 days! Scandal! Scandal!

You obviously have too much time and nothing better to do. But good to know some people meticulously watch my every step, day in, day out and still can't come up with anything better

After more than 15000 transactions with more than 2000 happy customers, turning over more than 200 sims worth of land (or 1/4th of Second Life world) your desperate dig for drama get really funny. It is like trying impeach the American president for not using ecologically recycled toilet paper to wipe his ***

Someone may have been willing to outbid the second place amount but the high bid prevented them from doing so.

Oh Anshe, Anshe.....

That sounds as though you are comparing yourself, and your importance, to the President.
I'm sure you didn't mean it, but it does give a very unfortunate impression, and more fuel to the fire, don't you think?

On the endless scrutiny, I really can empathise with your frustration, but you did choose this "high visibility" lifestyle, and I fear it comes with the territory. I don't think its gonna stop. You are so big that you affect the game experience of almost all the rest of us. This has to have implications for you too. Its not really surprising, is it?

What you do, and how you behave, does legitimately matter to us.