The tier system blows, Vote in Prop 443

Hypothetical situation. I want to build an outhouse out back. I figure it will take me about 29 prims to make a nice one, ( two holer, with matching toilet paper spools). Thus I need to buy another 128 meters of land in town to achieve my goal. The problem is, I own 16384 in land right now for which I pay an additional 75 bucks a month for. In order for me to buy the additional 128 I want, ( or even just one meter more) I would have to cough up an additional fifty bucks a month on top of everything, to advance to the next tier level. I know, I could just make another premium account and use that avies tier, but I dont want another damned alt! ( alts are the sign of a dual personality disorder, and I cant afford the therapy involved for that). We need a new tier system so that we pay tier for what land we own. Maybe have some package deals at various tier levels so that those who own lots of land get a discount for being such good customers. Sound good to you? Then go check out and VOTE PROP 443.

some details of the prop and maybe a linky would be good for those of us who just ate a large dinner and are feelin kinda lazy

*wanders off to check out the prop eventually*

I can relate to this, yes.

When you start getting up to the higher levels, the steps are simply too big.

I have over 1/4 sim, but I don't need an entire half a sim, which is currently my only option for getting the land I need. Tier should at the very least go up in even steps, not just steps that double each time.

If they did, a lot more people would be likely to buy more tier, as they go up just enough to build that custom outhouse or whatever, whereas having to make those huge jumps does, I think, keep people with lots of land already from tiering up.

You'd think that this would be obvious to LL...but I guess not.

create a group and deed the land to your group.... gives you a free 10% bonus

I dont think LL will change how the tier system works.... actually it works perfectly. Its designed that way for a reason... so LL can charge low fees and still profit

If you think about the $195/month in terms OUTSIDE of SL... $200/month for a dedicated server to the internet is cheap... especially when you consider the bandwidth used.

I can GUARANTEE the cost of running a sim server is far more than the $195/mo that we get charged in tier to use it. Thats why the tier system works the way it does (limits, steps, goes by max holdings)

If I owed an entire sim for 1 second.... i get charged $195 that month... even if i owed it for 1 second then sold to someone else. Then see thay get $195 from me, and $195 from the next person. Thats how they can turn a profit, keep running a business, and continue to attempt to make the game better

grouping your land will allow you 10% more at the same tier so you can get your 128sqm and not tier up

10% more land to swoop from your victims.

Sorry Dragon, this is just not true. You'll find many dedicated hosts in the sub-$100/month range, and those are truly dedicated, not just one CPU like Linden Lab uses per sim, and offer far more functionality (multiple apps).

The biggest joke of all is the bandwidth. Imaging running a popular website, thousands upon thousands of hits and loads of unique users. Now look at a Second Life region. Unless you are running a popular one, it lays dormant most of the time, and most of the bandwidth comes from the asset server cluster, not your "rented" CPU's server.

Linden Lab's pricing is outrageous because its technology isn't designed well enough to support more functionality per CPU. Their prices are not cheap, they are on the high side, and offer a much more limited package of features.

eh that may be true... i dont know what kinda bandwidth is used per user... however with high 512x512 textures im sure it can get fairly high.

All valid points... but i do think LL scrapes with the pricing, hence the tier structure. I dont think we'd ever get an accurate idea of the bandwidth used (or hardware used for that matter).

A lotta employees and I'm sure the $10/mo access isnt covering payroll lol. The income gotta come from somewhere, its obviously with tier not with the monthly fees just for a premier account

Oh I won't argue with you there Dragon! They can't reach profitability with these rates.

I really only bring it up in the face of what I signed up for... a "user created world". The problem is we have to pay to create the world, there are no options for those of us not wanting to participate in the economy. As someone who recently tiered down (woo hoo, I only pay $800USD a month now!) it's frustrating to want to contribute but have technical limitations (don't get me started ) standing in the way and be asked to pay these prices.

There have been some topics raised about non-commercial builds, meant solely for use by others, but in the now open-registration world I can see why Linden Lab doesn't respond. I'd gladly pay $50/month per region and be happy to share with those who are here simply for recreation and limited budgets, but the current pricing structure seems to force you to either want to play the economy or not contribute. For the same $200 USD a month to host a maximum 40 avatars I could host four 16 player rooms on four Xbox Live gamesfor a whole year. I'm willing to pay a premium to help launch such an interesting concept as Second Life, but this premium reeks of the old Big Blue IBM days where they charged outrageous "maintenance" fees... and you can see where IBM's business is now!

i hear ya again lol... so very true. especially a 16k memory limit per script such a PITA

id like to see more free builds too.... like play centers instead of mega-malls, but it seems SLs business model right now it facing more towards creating business instead of just creating stuff for users to utilize.

time will tell where the model is going... the growth rate is rising so fast now that new features releasing some of those technical limits (havok2, mono) will probably get forced into production faster as i'd imagine it would create a better environment with less issue. Especially mono, since the LSL is absolutely horid at processing

I posted a suggestion in the Answers section, here:

I think a lot more people would have more land if it wasn't for the big difference in price differences.

It would be a lot more useable if the following two measures were implemented:

1) Tiers were scrapped as they exist, and you pay a fixed amount per sq m in the existing brackets.

For example: 512 sq m tier is 0.97c/m2; 1024 sq m tier is 0.78c/m2; 2048 sq m tier is 0.73c/m2, 4096 sq m tier is 0.61c/m2.

Currently, owning 3000 sq m costs a player $25/month, using my method it would cost a player $18.30.... surely having that extra land used is worth getting the $3.80 extra a month for rather than not at all because someone doesn't want to spend $10 tiering up?


2) A proportional calculation of cost depending on the amount of time you own the land.

Currently I am on the 4096 tier, and am due billing next week. As I understand it, I will get stung for the 8192 tier this month even though I only own land for one week, if I bought extra land today. The person I am buying the land from will also get stung for the higher tier for the whole month so Linden Lab is effectively being paid twice (perhaps 3x if a land dealer buys for resale) for the same plot of land, and a rather unfair practice.

This could easily be calculated on a daily basis in the same time as traffic etc is calculated, accrued through the month and charged at the end. It's actually a lot more complicated to describe than it would be to code, and would benefit a lot of players - and possibly even benefit Linden Lab as people buy extra bits of land rather than not bothering because its not worth going up a tier for a 64 sq m odd corner that appears nearby.


Torley replied that whilst they are aware of such suggestions, they have no plans to make life easier for us.

Lewis

to me and im sure a lot of others it sounds good that way.... but then Torley's salary will be at risk

no matter what i dont think its changing. The systems setup so they get extra $$$, plain and simple. Your right, you buy land you tier up, who you bought it from stays tier'd till next month, and if resold, yes 3 people pay tier on the same land. Thats LL's business model to continue to stay in business. It's effective, and it works.

The average land owner in SL holds about 2560sqm. Even if it was cheaper in tier I dont see many people owning more land. Its simply like "if you want it, you'll get it" Most of what I've seen is if someones tiering up from 4096 into the 8192 tier, their not just buying a 16sqm past the 4096... they'll go as close to 8192 as they can since they are paying for it -- i think that makes people buy more land.

It's pretty much a standing point from LL to make SL a profitable business after expenses. The tier systems working fine for them. They wont tell you "if you dont like it dont buy land" but will just say "there is nothing slated to change in the tier system"

what your asking of LL is like someone asking you "well we pay you $50,000 a year in salary, but your not here 365 days a year, 24 hours a day. So instead of salary, we're gonna compute your $50k into an hourly rate, and only for the time your here - and no you cant work overtime" then your $50k a year becomes $5.70/hour ($50k / (24 * 365))

you wouldnt like that now would you?

http://secondlife.com/vote/vote.php?get_id=443

Whilst it may be their 'business model', it is not friendly towards users, does not encourage them to buy land which is otherwise sitting idle, and does not encourage people to spend a bit more money instead of a lot more money. I know that I wouldn't notice another $5 a month if I bought a little more land, but I would notice an extra $50 a month by going up a tier.

Even if it was calculated in just 512 sq m steps, that would be a huge incentive for people to buy more land, as the increase is a lot more palatable.

It seems another spin-off from the flawed 'make money' promotion of Second Life; there seems little desire to work with and assist those of us who are not here and have no interest in making a living wage from playing a computer game (be it through fair or foul means). Not everyone can or wishes to create a 'commerical build'.

Your 'salary' suggestion is backwards, by the way. I get paid an hourly rate, which works out to £xxx per year.

Lewis

the salary thing would only work if you got paid salary to begin with... and i didnt mean you specifically

your right i mean ya people always want to spend less and get more. Its human nature. But if the tier prices are too high, then why do so many people own land?

https://secondlife.com/currency/economy.php

The groups help offset too, split your costs and get twice the land you'd normally afford yourself.

I'm not trying to stick up for LL or try to knock down your suggestions -- they ARE well educated/logical suggestions as always. I'm just showing both sides of the tier system... trust me I'd much rather pay less for tier too... but its just a moot point because its not changing anytime soon. LL is in the growth stage of business, people are tiering land, LL is slowly gonna start turning a profit and reinvest capital. Even as big as SL seems right now... its still a spec of dirt compared to something like WoW.

You can't part with 8 squares of your primary
property to make room in your tier for this
hypothetical 'outhouse' parcel in another sim?

(You could always offer them to a neighbor if you
don't want it sold to some random stranger.)

LOL well typically, you want your outhouse away from your house, but not TOO far away...
if you get my drift

My suggestion - either in proportional pricing or just in 512 sq m increments - actually doesn't mean you spend less - it would probably encourage people to spend a little more instead of no more if it was a difference of $50 or not - and 'getting round the system' by deeding it to a group and getting an alt to buy it on a low tier is not really sensible practice or honest from Linden Lab's point of view.

Many people do own land - sure - but most would love more land if only they could afford it. The huge tier steps prevent the majority of us from expanding as we wish.

I actually have a dream of a 'small city' that could take up one or more complete sims, with a working integrated transport system and suchlike - but I know that unless the lottery comes up I will never have $195 a month disposable income for a computer game. If you look at most people who own a full island, they are either groups of people with a common interest, or fully commercial builds whose sole aim is to make the owner more money than it costs to own the sim. That's very different from a small shop or perhaps renting out a few billboard spaces to select individuals to help towards costs.

My interests are neither - yet in a roundabout way I am being penalised simply by not having a desire to make an income, or turn control of my dream over to other people who may or may not fully understand my vision.

If Second Life becomes nothing but commercial builds, full of advertising everywhere you go, with nothing else of appeal except shopping or gambling, then I don't see it lasting very long in its current format.

Lewis

I've been asking for them to smooth out the tiers for a couple of years now, and for some reason they just don't get that this would work to their advantage.

They have also done away with all incentives for anyone to create content, other than retail, and even that is going down the drain because new players have no money to spend.

The more I look at they way they respond, the more I think that they are moving toward a business model that just does not include small landowners and "players." This would be foolish, as businesses do not need and do not want a platform that is as open-ended as Second Life. A business is not about to run a site where a 10-foot penis can walk in and throw a bomb during their board meeting, and the same goes for universities and classes. A university may set up a short-term experiment here, but with all the grid outages and so on, they would not rely on this place for regular classes, especially since there are so many better platforms for education.

The real-life facts are that residents like us are the last best hope for Second Life, but Linden Labs thinks we are a pain in the neck instead of an asset.

I'ts rather sad, really. I can see that big whirlpool forming at the drain already.

Jopsy, whether I can modify my existing landholdings to accomodate my 'outhouse' is a moot point. The whole exercise was a hypethetical to point out the deficiencies inherent in the current tier system, WHICH BLOWS! Voting for Prop 443 means you would prefer to pay tier on the land you currently hold, and not pay extra for tier you do not need.

Based on the total amount of land you own you have 3,750-prims... surely you can find enough objects within your parcel(s) to remove, thus creating enough room in your prim allowance for the execution of your outhouse project.

An unwillingness to properly manage one's resources (prims) does not mean there should be a corresponding reduction in price (tier fees).

I understood... but had to quibble with your example anyway.

I'm less fond of the actual costs than I am of the tier structure, I'd like to see LL ease up a bit on the fees at the "tax brackets" they've laid out. (but who wouldn't).

One thing your per-sqm fee proposal doesn't address is how to manage the 'quantity discount' that comes with being a larger land owner. Unless you're proposing LL do away with that?

Elex! You are also missing the point! I can manage my resources just fine thank you.
*Shakes head woefully. Change the hypethetical to read, ' I want to build a giant statue of the words ' THE TIER SYSTEM BLOWS' and it will take 1000 prims, but I dont want to have to double my tier costs for another 8000 meters when all I need is 1000. And no I cant manage to free up another 1000 prims cus I have a real nice outhouse I dont want to get rid of. *Exhales. Vote prop 443 which can be viewed at:
http://secondlife.com/vote/vote.php?get_id=443

Actually Jopsy, prop 443 wasnt mine, I just jumped on the bandwagon. But my two cents on that goes something like this. Keep the bulk package discounts, but give us a way to combine em. Additional 512's for five bucks a month, eight bucks for another 1028 ect.
As opposed to the big doubling jumps.

It's up to you to manage your own resources (If you really were capable of managing your resources just fine you wouldn't be in this _hypothetical_ predicament).

If the number of resources (prims/land) you need exceeds the price you are currently willing to pay then you have to go without. If a hobo stands in a liqour store and complains that the price of champagne is too high at no point is the liquor store owner required to bring down the price of champagne. Nor is the liquor store owner required to open the bottle and sell part of it. (He can simply wait until someone else is willing to pay his price for the full bottle)

Based on your original hypothetical example, the amount of prims needed for your outhouse project is less than 1-percent of your total available prims. How one wishes to use their prim allowance for their parcel(s) is entirely their own affair. However, you're asking people to vote on a discount and the free market is not a democracy. The purpose of a free market is for buyer and seller to agree on a price. If you're unwilling to pay the price for the resource then you'll simply have to do without.

Based on your second hypothetical example you're again seeking a change to the tier system solely on the basis of wanting special treatment from the marketplace (Increasing the total amount of prims needed changes nothing [Nice outhouse notwithstanding]).

You have the options of...

1) Renting the needed land (thus relying on another resident to own the land and passing their discount along to you). [Go to a bar and buy a glass of champagne]

2) "Cultivating" your parcels so that you earn a return on your investment and can thus put your profits into expanding your total parcel size. [Make enough to buy a bottle of champagne]

3) Acquire the needed real estate and rent out the remainder, thus subsidizing your magnificent outhouse project or magnificent giant 1000-prim sign project on your own. [Buy a bottle of champagne, drink one glass, sell the rest]

As only approximately 3-percent of the total resident population pays tier fees (and one account makes up about 28-percent of this revenue) it's highly unlikely LL would change the existing tier fee structure.

*pops cork, drinks bottle of champagne, leaves the empty bottle on your hypothetical lawn, drives off*

The SL tier structure with its discrete steps instead of a smooth per sqm structure is nothing uncommon in business. And of course it is to LLs advantage ... so why should they change it?

If you want a little more granularity in land pricing, why not come to one of the private continents - like our OTHERLAND Archipelago? With us - and most of our competitors - you can simply can step up in increments of 1024 or 2048, even if you already own a large area.

THE OTHERLAND GROUP
The Premium Brand for Residential Land in Second Life!
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Looking for beautiful land? Check out THE OTHERLAND WEBSITE!
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hey everyone shrink is here! ... lol

I dont think so darling. alts are just expression of different aspects of our personality. almost everyone has a very old wiseman in them , and a naughty child at the same place, and also a passionate lover casanova.

Theres no disorders, its all art, and art is about expression. Well, true though, according to shrinks every artist is mad and crazy...lol