Economy, L's and stipends....

Though I read the forums with great interest, I haven't had much to say. I guess I just want to chime in as one of the great unwashed noobs to say I see SL as a game; a form of entertainment which I don't mind spending a bit of money on.

I don't want to work in SL, I work enough in RL. I just want to have a bit of L cash to buy some bright shiny objects and have some fun. Stipends, which I pay for as part of my premium membership, do that for me. And don't give me the economics lecture - I pay for them. Should they disappear, would I stay? Probably, though I would forgo the premium account and neither hold nor rent land. I would just wander about, happy with the inventory I have and any freebies I could pick up along the way.

I've asked others inworld about all of this, those who dont' read the forums thus flying under the radar, and they tend to agree with me.

I find the endless debates here amusing and would keep a basic membership, just to read the forums.

There are tons of alternative solutions to stop devaluation of L$.
Cutting L$500/week will hit residents, so vendors, so land barons.
I dont want it to be completely removed maybe it can be lowered to L$400 BUT
as i said there are tons of other solutions, if u cant stop the money income to the world, find ways to take it from the world.

->Increase "show in find" option from L$30 to L$60.
->Increase minimum classfied payment to L$100
->Create new Linden services in the world, which people pay L$ to have them.
ex-> Create a stuff exchange place in world or on the web page which takes 3% L$ comission from each exchange
ex-> Create database options for scripters and sell every kilobyte of database usage as L$.
ex-> Lindex is currently taking 3% from the seller as USD for each sell, make it 2% as usd, and take 1% as L$.
..........
............
These ones can be bad ideas, but i am sure LL can find better ways. I am trying to say, before discussing stipends, there can be tons of other solutions to discuss, so everyone can be happy.

Forgive me if I chuckle

Shaun, I notice I tend to have a difficult time disagreeing with you... (or with Argent for that matter. Unless the two of you are in disagreement of course!

Killing stipends may cause a small stormy exodus, and SecondLife will certainly recover from the loss of a few unhappy players, it has before, it will again. Things will be fine as long as the stream of new players out-numbers the stream of departing players.

For the moment, the stream of new players seems to be coming in hopes of something fun, free, and possibly profitable. Whether that is enough of a draw to keep the new and invested player count up, who knows. (I do think it's a short lived hype that results in rather high player attrition as people realise that it's not as easy as they thought to get ahead... or even break even, if they've invested real money.)

Of course, this is all short term. Like any MMO, long term survival depends on being able to find ways to capture new audiences/participants to replace those lost to natural attrition. To stay fresh Linden Labs must adapt, revise and re-invent SecondLife continuously. I would rather see wild and enthusiastic changes and retractions from time to time instead of a slow bureaucratic change management approval process... but I'm a wild and crazy guy.

For now, Stipends, seem to help new players adjust to virtual commerce in SecondLife. As SecondLife changes and commerce and the internet grow more entwined perhaps they won't be as necessary in the future.

--
What would the world be like if 90% of the population were penny-pinching tourists?

You say fun free and profitable do away with stipends Profitable kinda goes out the window along with fun. Ie basically people either have to create content or work for someone else to make money. You run also into the fact once the stipend is gone if a set group controls most of the funds in SL you screw people over. Another Example is newbies use the stipend to find jobs and develop stuff you halt alot of stuff jsut doing away with it. Players were mad b4 but it recovered because there was still a stead source of L coming in. None of these get rid of the stipend soluitions wil lhelp in the long haul. Its jsut a quick fix to put money in someone's pocket more or less. Eventually it will lead to something less stable then we have now and will jsut make alot of stuff more mundane. People not getting into content creation because its not worth it and many other issues doing this could arise. Wether you realize it or not the stipend is a major backbone for the economy in SL. Its a source of income for alot of residents. What getting rid of the stipend basically does is lower alot of people's main source of income - lowers amount of items sold in world - creates a hassle for content creators that have made previous things in game - add to corruption among large groups having more power over the economy then they already do - discourages new content - discourages new members to join SL - and ultimately forces everyone in SL to do something as opposed to those that like to just buy things using their stipend and jsut have fun. There is no real solution to get the L to stabalize its up to the people of SL to see to it that it does. Its the sellers fault the value is so low cuz they want quick gratification - that is the cold hard truth!!

However I'd be willing to bet that the ones screaming to get rid of stipend are the very ones selling large blocks of it on e-bay and/or thier stooges in world.. That said, which one are you? Larry, Moe, or Curly?

Ok, so maybe I did chuckle uncontrollably when I read your post...

...but I admitted it and asked for forgiveness did I not?

Yet this is what I get?



<shrug> Meanie

What if they just cut the basic stipend?

Assuming (THIS IS AN ASSUMPTION) that basics represent 60% of the population, but you need to log in to get the 50 Linden per week.

How much would that represent? Would it be enough of a sink?
Basically, what I am asking is, instead of wiping stipends all over the place, can't we start small? Start with the basic accounts. The premium accounts LL would really have a rough time as it's kind of 'promised' as a part of the premium package. They could do it because of the wording in the ELUA but that would make a lot of people mad.

By not touching the premium accounts and removing the stipend for basics, wouldn't that be a little more incentive to the basics to go premium?

Before anyone jumps all over me, my account is a basic account

I rent a 4096 plot of land and spend 20 US (at current L Prices) on the Lindex every month to pay my landlord with a little over for me. Realistically, one month of basic stipend is only 200 L.... it's not even enough for an outfit.

**Edited to Add**

Additionally they could do it in Phases.
Month1. Remove Basic Stipend

Month3. Add in some additional money sinks (if needed)

Month6. If the L is still falling, Cut 400 / Month (100 per week) From Premium Account Stipends.

etc...

Would that work if cutting Basic Stipends wouldn't be enough?




The whole reason I think cutting basic stipends should be done first is simply because basic accounts are really and truely (myself included) getting 200 Linden every month (for logging in 4 times) for free. Across 1000 Basic Accounts that adds up to 200,000 every month. Which is a U.S. dollar value of $689.65 (at 290L/1US)

As someone metioned, cutting the basic stipends will remove the ability for the "basic membership" content creators to upload their textures without having to spend some RL cash.

Not everyone who joins the SL community is here to make USD profits from their in-world creations. Should those people be penalized because others want to maximize their USD revenue without having to work as hard as those that work for in-world L$ revenue?

The simple fact of the matter is this...

As in RL, the L$ can devalue just like the USD. It can also increase in value. Whether or not there are stipends, the economy will still improve and degrade, depending on the whims of the high rollers who bankroll massive amounts of L$ and then put up large sums for sale to reduce the value of the L$... and then buy up the cheaper money. Taking their larger sums off the market will then drive the prices back up.

It would not surprise me if many of these individuals work together to effect the economy. It would not surprise me if they do it specifically to have the stipends removed... so they can all offer their horde for sale at the resulting higher price per L$. Reminds me of the real world, and the corruption that effects many of our real lives.

L$50/week for basic accounts... most of which ends up going towards upload costs and housing rent... is only a deterant for those who currently have accounts from bothering to stay with SL.

If you want to stabalize the cost of L$, start thinking of ways to improve the value of the L$... not devaluate the value of a player's account.

If you want to offer an incentives for basic accounts to go premium, increase the value of the premium accounts. Offer additional features for premium accounts that the basic accounts do not have. I am not talking about taking features away from basic accounts... I am talking about new features, offered to paying customers only. Such features could be made available to basic accounts for a weekly cost in L$ as well, for those die-hard anti-premium people.

But that's just it, I understand that, the entire purpose of a basic account should be: "Try SL and see if you like it!" Not, "Become a content creator for free and get free Linden for the rest of your time here"

There has to be some incentive to move up to premium, and land ownership isn't enough of one because it's just as easy to rent.

Just my opinion on the subject.

Looking at the figure 1000 Active Basic Accounts costs LL 685 dollars per month, that just seems kind of ridiculous.

I agree with you 100%. Bug fixing is not an easy thing to do. any developer even in world can tell you that. When there is a problem, you need to first figure out the root cause of the problem, and then you have to research the dependencies to make sure that changing that line or lines of code will not cause another bug, or complete system failure. I do give LL a lot of credit for the world in which they have created. Things cannot be fixed or reprogrammed overnight. I trust that LL is doing their best at working out bugs, and programming new features. Just think for a minute as well. Do you think its really that easy for them to just cut stipends, and find other ways of introducing L$ into the world at a slower rate? Programming takes time. Good work LL.
Ok, I'm done sucking up now....

One more thing, you know how to "FIX" the economy? As the L$ drops in value, you just raise your prices to compensate! Oh my! we do this in RL too! Remember when you could buy gas for $0.99/Gal? The economy changes, and it looks like we just may have to change with it. I hate having to raise my prices, but if it has to be done....

Basic accounts are only meant to be trials, they shouldn't be relied on for life. Making them unlimited and free except for buying land is a fundamental flaw.

Due to the ability to rent land, you can do everything in game without ever signing up for Premium, yet you can cash out L$ into a real income with never directly paying LL anything.

Basic accounts should not, repeat not, ever be able to cash out via Lindex.

Then people will either upgrade to premium, or leave, if a real income is part of their game play.

If they leave, it proves they were only here for the money, not for entertainment.

Lewis

L$50 / week isn't a huge offering. That pretty much covers a week's rent at some of the less expensive malls. Take that away, and how is someone going to get a feel for how the economy works before they decide to get a premium account, or buy some L$.

As for becoming a content creator for "free"... why is that a problem for you? More content = more things to buy/experience. That is the driving force behind the success of SL... content.

Just out of curiosity... what result are you going for by killing the stipends?

Oh... and please do not take any of my commentary or opinions as attack... I certainly do not intend to offend. I do, however, like a good friendly debate. Helps me round out my own ideas, as well as be exposed to new ones.

Probably the smartest thing I've heard in a long time

I never argued that fixing bugs was not a monsterous task. BUT there are known bugs that have been in SL since version 1.1. And others that I have dealt with since 2004. Yes it takes time to fix things. Years is pushing it a bit don't you think?

I see nothing wrong with people being here for money. It's part of the SL business model. It's part of the whole concept of SL.

I do, however, love your idea that basic accounts should not be able to cash out through Lindex... the problem is, however, there are other outlets from which to sell your L$. And, as seen in other platforms such as the more conventional MMORPG, simply adding a line to the ToS banning the sale of in-world currency on unauthorized services... just doesn't work.

If you only look locally, you are right, it isn't a huge offering.

However,


There are (guessing) probably a lot more than 1000 Active Basic Accounts. (By Active I mean, log in once a week for the stipend).

And how does this effect you? (not trying to sound like a butthead)

and new smart business men(premium) will shout:
"hey basic accounts, i am buying your L$s for 310/usd"
What will change?

It decreases the value of her L$.

Does anybody else get the feeling were going around in circles here.

I used to be premium. I owned roughly a quarter region. I tiered back to basic due to a completely unsatisfactory experience with Linden support. I won't go into great detail but someone who had more wanetd my land and griefing was being allowed to make things hrder on me while a deaf ear was turned. Hence, my tiering down. I'm not going to pay monthly or buy L's to support being griefed without the griefer having to fear any reprisals. I can do that for free IRL so why pay to get shafted here.

well, okay.

How it affects me? In the context of this discussion, we are trying to determine sinks that LL can add to help the L Dollar against the U.S. Dollar. I am proposing that the weekly stipend L for basic accounts is cut to an initial amount for signing up and then 0 per week to reduce the amount of L-Dollars that are printed from Linden Labs. The reason for, in my opinion, cutting out the Basic Stipend first has been cited in my previous posts in this thread.

It's simple, it may not sound like much, but across all basic accounts, it really adds up. It doesn't matter really how little it may be individually, what matters economically is the amount in circulation as that defines it's rarity.

If not a lot (total) is available then it is more valuable.

If it's on every street corner, shop, and floor, then you may as well burn it to keep warm because it's cheaper to burn than it is to buy the wood to burn (see German History to catch the reference)

So, how does it affect me? It affects the value of the L Dollar because you are adding a bunch of Linden Dollars into circulation, thus making them less rare, thus driving down the price people are willing to pay for those L dollars.

As has been stated previously, I am a basic account holder so please don't burn me at the stake, do what I do, use Lindex

Jessica

Are we turning this into an argument? I'd really rather hear the explaination from the person it was asked of. Everyone has their own reasons for things.

Let's not turn this into a flame thread here... it's just another form of griefing.

Damn.. I'm glad to see we have some educated people around
here that realize that a constant inflow of Linden Dollars will only
lead to a declining L$..

Too bad Jonas and Jopsy can't see the light. They must still have
their blinders on...

Good work Jessica, you are a Top Notch Economic Guru...
Unlike the fools around here...