P2P - How to make it work?

It was actually Linden that proposed that compensation in their anouncement.

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Lack of scruples did.

(Edit to add: I guarantee you 'traffic increase/dwell' will NOT be a average of what that land would sell for were telehubs still in place. Don't mistake a token gesture for anything other than what it is.... on the other hand, they really don't have to do a damn thing. The ToS says so. You agreed to it. Remember?)



They will not compensate you. And you have no recourse. Isn't the new ToS wonderful?

Welcome to reality -- where LL is reactive, not proactive, and not to your interests or needs, but to their own and preferrably at your expense.

Caveat Emptor, folks.

Seems to me LL simply acted like what they are - the ultimate land baron- and now all the lesser land barond are a twitter over eatign there own sour grapes aint turn about the ultimate leveler hows it feel Anshe to be treated the all you land barons treat the regular folks suck dont it?

Just remember LL can play god they could destroy your holding or devalue them to nothing with a simple nod of the head. They havent yet so be happy and keep making money

I'm not fond of the idea of charging for the P2P usage. I like to explore, but I'm sick of looking at the malls or getting stuck in the middle of some skyscraper or rock because things rez around me. So far I've bought some extra property far from telehubs but can only have one home. I'm sick of having to fly a long distance to get to my other property. The crap around the hubs make it difficult to get to my own places.


I'd like to suggest another idea that might solve two issues, being able to teleport anywhere and taking some extra Lindens out of the game. Instead of charging per teleport, how about having the Linden's sell a P2P teleport device for some price, maybe $10L or $100L. Those people that want the P2P capability on their property can set it where they want people to teleport. They can also set it to just allow owners, friends or anyone to teleport there. The object can be made transparent and be made part of another object or device.


This would keep people's privacy the same as they have it now. If someone wants a friend to teleport to a secret room on their property and everyone else to teleport to tehir store, then they can buy two teleporters and maybe there could be some way for someone to select which one they could land at if they meet the qualifications set on the devices.


Maybe the "compensation" for people near telehubs could be a number of free P2P teleporters. If someone has made bad choices in investments, well that's their problem. I bought some First Land near an outlying area with only houses around. After I put something really nice looking on it, then someone built a tall casino right in front of it. I'm not going to cry about it. You take risks when you do business. That's why everyone isn't Chunging property left and right. Business always has its risk-reward ratios. Buying fake land in a virtual world where the rules could change any minute would be something that I would put in the high-risk category. Usually the rewards are better for such high risk endeavors, but not always. That's for the business person to decide.


As for the idea of giving the telehub owners extra prims or any property extra prims, I kind of chuckle at the idea. Everything that goes on someone's property is taking up resources for Linden Labs. Having been a computer programmer for 20 years, I'm sure they'd entice more people in with higher prim counts on all property or at least come up with a "prim bonus plan" whereby you could buy extra prims if their servers could handle it. Rezzing avatars at telehubs to prevent lag instead of letting people go directly where they want seems to be in direct contrast with the idea of giving people extra prims because of where they own property. The most likely reason that you don't get more prims is because the lindens haven't figured out how to do it without crashing the systems more often.


I'm cool with the option of making the P2P a registered user option only. Or maybe someone pay a premium for a P2P device that also allows newbies. Leave the telehubs as is and they are free.


Another option is to have people pay much more for the telhub devices, but give them the option of charging for their use. Maybe have Linden Labs take a percentage of the cost of these. Then people can decide to pay or use the telehubs for free.

Offer unique items in an attractive setting like SL's successful merchants do.

LL and SL residents don't owe anything to those who bet on a business model and lost. It's quite nice of LL to offer any compensation at all.

Hey Folks.. Interesting debate so far.

Perhaps I'm stupid, or just naieve, but sorry.. *why* are we actually having this
p2p teleporting thing now? What exactly was wrong with the way it was?

Oh, right, you had to fly somplace from a telehub when you rezzed, thats right..
Well, if the reason we are now having all this trouble and land de-valueation, plus the prospect of huge "teleport-lag" is because people are too lazy to fly about a little... You'll have to excuse me if I dont give a crap about their whining..

See, What the Lindens (who I love, and their cool SL universe, so dont get me wrong I'm not a hater here) have done, amounts to a lot more than just adding a new way to get around - they are totally shifting a massive, huge part of the economy that they have created, and that 70,000 people are heavily involved in. They created an economy - and a big part of that, like in RL, was location - it gave rise to some really interesting quirks - and made for a stable market that could be *trusted* - you knew that the new northern sims were safe to buy an expensive plot of land in, because they were far from telehub - *perfect* for a nice home, that you could TP home to at any time instantly "/World menu/Teleport home" and you also felt safe that there wasnt going to be a superclub, or a Sadism Bdsm theme house, or a particle effects shop next door, because it was far from a telehub - not suitable for commercial land..yet ideal for a nice home..

In a similar vein, people who wanted businesses knew where to look. There were deals to be had, if you looked around, new sims, cheap vendors (30 prims for $30 a week in hyles, 50m from telehub anyone? sounds pretty good to me...) and there were a lot of people actually who may not have been up there with anshe but were working hard to develop their business and get into one of those zones where lots of people were flying about. It was fun, looking for deals, the sense of progress, it gave goals and provided a real, extremely satisfying sense of progress, of devloping your business.. of something to be achieved - success.

Now, with those things gone - Things have changed.

****It is a *basic* fact that if you interfere in any developing economy or currency, you deny it economic maturity**** - A great majority of us have taken stock of the market - the flow of customers, the way people move around, and spend money, where we can buy and develop land to sell for a profit, or to make a nice home, etc etc- and now all that has been stripped away, totally needlessly, because of a few whingers who dont like to fly.

If you have had *anything* to do with land, you have on some level based your decisions on closeness to telehub.

And now, the rug has been pulled out from under us. Everything has changed, and YES there are SOME good points but the Lindens I feel have made a tremendous error.

They have wiped huge sums of money off their economy, places that were now expensive are now just as cheap as land 4 sims away

They have destroyed an important part of their economy, by taking away a reward structure for doing well in game (not an economic point, but a big part of the "game play" factor)

They have totally destroyed trust in their economy as stable, and safe to invest in. A few months ago, I was considering buying an expensive bit of land, very close to a telehub. I do not have a lot of money in RL, and it would have been a significant and serious investment for me - yet one that I felt safe in making because I felt I had judged well the market, and felt assured that my business would do well there because of traffic, and also because of the closeness to telehub I had good potential to redevelop the land and resell if my business failed. I will now NOT ever trust the economy in SL again, thank goodness I didnt actually get burned by this myself. But I am sure a LOT of people have, with this 1.8 update, just been told that their money has vanished into thin air.

**what about the small people whose 130k land is now worth only 80 or 90???**


There are many reasons that this isnt a good thing - So far in reading the other posts, I havent seen one person come up with a reason why we are better off now that we were before, only that the "bad things" people have mentioed wont be so bad for various reasons.

I think Lindenlabs has made their first *real* and *serious* error.. if they had actually thought this through, or held a much larger general debate within the community then fine - but to screw things this badly just because people bitch about having to fly.. well.. Its just stupid.

There is no such thing as truly oligarchic utopian socialism. what you are trying to do here politically cannot exist...

oh and btw to the people who say to anshe

"you make arbitrary decisions that affect people so dont complain now its being done to you"

can you guys shut up, you can't say on one hand that when anshe does it its bad, and when its done to her its ok - either a policy is right or wrong, you can't base descisions regarding the "fairness" of policy by the way they are applied in individual cases.

Either you accept that it is **as fair for anshe to do it as it is for the lindens to do it**, and **stop bitching about anshe**, OR **accept that it isnt fair for either of them to do it** and **attack the lindens with as much voracity as I see people going after anshe with.**

I'm not saying anything in that statement about either anshe, or the lindens, but can you stop the childish duality and get serious. You deride your own arguments with this idiocy.

LLabs does if the reason that business model failed is because they changed the rules, and wrecked the foundation that business model was built on.

Regular SL users, dont, true. But just in the same way that if in RL I bought a house, and then the next year the government wanted to build a freeway through my yard I should be compensated for the decrease in the value of my equity, LLabs owes compensation here.

QFT.

The fact is, Anshe has made hand over fist in profit. She's only making a stink now because she didn't see the writing on the wall. Sorry Anshe, open your eyes.

Oh, and for the record, only about 5% or less of the SL population actually reads these boards (except for down times) and being "one of the people", I'll tell you right now that anyone reading this would tell you that you're full of crap.

You want to get paid for taking a risk? Right. If you were the "business girl" you claim to be, you wouldn't open your mouth about something so apparent.

Bottom line: This thread SCREAMS "How can I get mine?" which is what the majority of people who know the name Anshe Chung think. Just another greedy land baron.

Noone cares if you've going to take a hit.
Noone cares if your precious land value drops.
Noone cares if you don't make 100,000 USD + a year from a computer game.
Noone cares ... because the vast vast majority do not own telehub land. Just you pumpkin
NOONE CARES, despite what they say.

So give it a rest and open your eyes from now on. If P2P was hinted at, you should have been savvy enough to figure out that you should minimize future risks until it was happening or not happening. You didn't, you continued full steam ahead, and now your precious nuts are in a vice. Oops.

So as they say, cry more.

Again, QFT.

It's the name of the game son. You chose... poorly.

WOW!! Imagine that?! Someone else with the right idea?

Are you reading this Anshe? Imagine, in a virtual world LOCATION not being key?
I know it's hard to imagine, but try...

Imagine a world in which your PRODUCT controlled your traffic, not your location.

Can you picture that? It's hard, but this is SECOND LIFE... oh yea, I can fly too.

Location Location Location. ....wrong. Product, Product, Product.

Thank you Darkness, you might be old, but youre DEAD ON.

I just liked this post, so I decided to quote it.

Everything we do in life is a risk. Hell, waking up is a risk. Breathing the air is a risk. Everything. In most cases, you don't get compensated if something goes wrong, you simply die. So why is this any different? From the few times I browsed these forums, LL hinted STRONGLY at p2p .... yes some people continued to pay high prices for the land.

Good game, but you lose. Cry more.

MY question is, and I don't think I've seen this asked in this thread yet, is WHY did certain residents CONTINUE to buy telehub land at the same rate, when AWARE that LL had P2P on the table in the first place? That's like buying the Pizza shop next to the big supermarket with inside knowledge that they may be filing chapter 11. And when they close, expect them to compensate "expected profit" that was never realized??

I would've thought Simcorporators were more biznass saavy than that.

Then again, turning a brand new unregulated metaverse into RL income may not have been so smart to begin with. Especially when the creators have their cake and eat it too...

...just my 2c... ( and there very well may be a logical answer to the above question! I would love to hear it! )


~M~

Yea, well they'd like to make us think so huh? And there is no reasonable answer other than they played on the chance that P2P wouldn't come out. They lost. Such is life.

The Lindens moved the cheese. But their own cheese is moving too and attracting more attention.

That and island auctions on eBay tell me that future changes are going to be MUCH bigger than P2P. And that one won't be able to make money on SL without substantial investment not available to an individual. Corps and pro content providers are not far away.

... my thoughts too Steph. With all the Linden tongue wagging in the press in recent months, there HAS to be corporate interest. Or should I say interest that recently has decided to move forward. A whole new continent has appeared! .... and in less time than it once took to implement just the Snow sims alone in the 'Old World' -_^
~M~

I still don't know why this is being debated, okay I know but it isn't going to change anything.

In a capitalistic society the majority of the consumers set the trends and the pace, the businesses either adapt or fade away. There is just no other way to explain it.
The majority of SL users are the consumers, LL has to make them happy.

Customers requested direct TP'ing. It benefits the builders and scripters to have this technology and in turn makes the consumers happy.
Unless you want to lobby and grease the palms of the Lindens, they are going to listen to the consumer.

LL doesn't owe anyone anything. You took a risk when making an investment. If there was no risk then everyone would be doing it and nobody would make money.

You cut your losses, adapt to the market and continue to be successful or you complain to deaf ears while your business crashes.

It sucks, but that's how the system works. You took a big risk when buying the land, made some big money but didn't move in the right amount of time.

Be innovative and take advantage of this change, there is always a way.

FROM APOLLO:I'm not saying anything in that statement about either anshe, or the lindens, but can you stop the childish duality and get serious. You deride your own arguments with this idiocy.


Apollo

Please get your argument straight ... those of us that have had a negitive experience because of what Anshe has done to us are amused that it's Anshe that is carrying the double standard ... if she does does it.. its ok and fair. But when its her turn to lose money ... she raises all heck and shouts thats she is not being treated fairly.

If Anshe can do it to us then it can be done to her.. and she needs to just live with it like we have had to.

OMG!! That is the BEST summation of this thread that I've seen yet! LOL!!

Maybe I just can't get my head around this uproar because I'm not a business owner, but all this fuss over whether people can virutally land somewhere or virtually fly there within a virtual world seems hilarious to me. Or maybe it's because I work in a hospice, which keeps me from taking SL so seriously....

I may be missing the point, but I see Anshe's continent as the only place a resident can go to purchase land with any serenity or privacy. No Hub Malls means that cheap non-hub land in the boonies will become some enterpreneur's store, with neon signs and strobe lights. There was no guarantee before p2p, but your odds were better.

I have a small bit of telehub land that I bought for the conveniece of my customers. I got my investment back (barely) and I guess that although I'm disppointed, My loss will not be huge (I paid about $80 for land now fairly valued less than $30, but I'll probably just keep since it was an old hub that never had a mall and is now a rather large Linden park.

I'll enjoy the abilities p2p will give me and my friends, and since I am part of a large mall that was previously quite a long flight, I may even benefit financially.

So lastly a question, if SL is giving traffic bonuses to old telehub land, will Infohub land be surrounded with camping chairs and discos? I havent seen that they are, but if so, for how long? irl there is usually more security and stablity, and the ability to buy insurance from acts of god, in SL we have Lindenlab.

I care. It's wrong for people to be treated unfairly, whether it is a newbie who's being sold a box of freebies for 300L--or whether it is Anshe Chung loosing 30,000US on telehub land.



LL "hinted" quite the opposite. They listed telehub land at a higher starting price in auctions and made public statements to the effect that telehubs were here to stay. Perhaps Anshe Chung and the other land barons should have expected LL to do a sudden about face, and devalue telehub land with no compensation for the land owners. One would think that if they were the greedy, unethical, and manipulative people that they are accused of being, they would be expecting less-than-fair behavior from others.

Or could it be that most of the land barons are basically ethical business people filling a valuable and productive niche in the SL economy?

I think so, but I doubt many people here in the forums will agree with me.

(Just to clarify--I am not against P2P teleporting; I am against the devaluing of telehub land without fair compensation for the landowners.)

Lindens didnt tell anshe:"Buy telehub land they are more valuable".
They always start auctions from usd1000. If you think it sells u raise it. If u think it is good u raise it. In real life, at my city, goverment said there will be a new subway, all the lands around it doubled their prices. People bought from there. They canceled subway project. Noone can tell goverment "give my money back". Goverment didnt set prices. People set it.
In another view, the person who owns telehub lands, made profit from there till this time, it is possible some residents gave money to him/her. Will she give back all?All profit he/she made from hub lands? should he/she?
I bought tringo from tringo maker for 15K$L or something. Now peaople are giving up playing tringo. Will he give my money back?should he?
I bought usd with my money, because usd were increasinf vs my country's money. But it decreased with iraq war, who will give my money back?should one?
I bought a satelite antenna, because all tv channels were at satelite, but now they are on cable. And i bought cable who will give my antenna money back?should one?
I bought dial-up modem, there was no dsl, now i bought a dsl modem. Who will give my dial-up modem money back?should one?
There were telehub lands, RESIDENTS set high prices for them, because they had advantages. Now there is no advantage, who will give their money back?Or who will give them new advantages?should one?should lindens do that?
NO.
I can tell u what is unfair:
I lost 164K$L to a broken BJ machine, i proved it, nobody did nothing. (they should)

it is normal they set telehunb prices higher at old times. Because these places had advantages.
Now they dont have advantages. And this is a fact of life.

Many things can wreck a business. Few manage to get compensation for business failures based on their own bad planning.

Telehub merchants should have noted the extended forum discussions of p2p, and should have noted the 71% approval ratio for p2p. They deserve no compensation.

LL is a corporation, not a government. Takings doesn't apply.