P2P - How to make it work?

...I liken Anshe starting a thread such as this to the hostess dousing themselves in gasoline at a Tiki party... /before/ lighting the Teekies!

... but it sure is swell entertainment!


/heads to the snack bar for refills..

=

*nods* I agree completely with this. I refuse to shop at any location near a telehub because the majority of the buildings are just boxes stacked up in an obnoxious way seemly designed to trap an avatar when you try to move before everything rezzes. I find myself flying straight up and not even looking around.

well just my 2 cents here
i have owned land near a telehub for quite some time now in clarksburg the promenade mall.
.it is not right on the tele hub but close enough to benefit from the hub being there. how ever even with out the hub the mall is large enough and i have enough venders that i dont see a problem with the traffic at my mall once p2p is implamented.
however i do have several rental shops right on some telehubs and these shops do very well
i can only hope that the customers that shop these shops will continue to as i think will be the case as i see the same people in my transaction history come back to the same shop over and over. the only draw back is unless they have a LM they will need to remember where the shop was.
where in with a tele hub if you know the shop you want to visit is on the hub then all you need too do is click on that region and know you will be ported pretty much directly to the shop you wished to visit.

also i fond it very perplexing when i see people post that when they teleport to a hub they fly straight up yada yada .. as some one who has spent a great deal of time at hubs i find this behavior to be only a very few people.
what i have experancced is that people teleport in and may Wait a min for rez cause quite honestly no matter where you tp to you going to have to wait for rez. any way i digress umm so after a person rezes they tend to fly off in the direction that there bacon is and some will tend to linger longer and look around and shop.

just my 2 cents on the subject and BTW i did not buy my hub land to sell it off for a profit i bought it cause i wanted to build a beautiful mall and i did do just that.




then you have not been to one of my shops cause a great many people don't consider my things trash my transaction history is proof of that.

LL needn't worry about compensating owners of telehub land in any way. Demanding compensation from them is like opening a pizza shop next to a big supermarket (and presumably paying a premium for such prime turf), then, when the supermarket closes the next month, demanding that it pay you for your lost profit. Obviously, such a demand is nonsense.

I think if you took a poll you'd find alot more than 'a very few' do this. The 'ONLY' reason I pause at a telehub is for all my avatar to rez then I fly up and over telehub shops completely ignoring them on purpose.

As far as comments from telehub land owners concerned about P2P, why not start selling some of that land now? Cut your 'losses'. If you hang on to it all and P2P is implemented you'll only have yourself to blame. And those of us not owning telehub land have losses also; lost time due to telehub shop induced lag and obstacles.

As I said, I'm speaking from my experiences. Maybe Crucial Creations is an exception to the hub trash stereotype, maybe not. But I think it's true that for every number of people who will go to your store because it's the first thing that they saw when teleporting somewhere else you will have another number of people who will avoid it for the same reason. Just seems like your gain would be tempered with loss (is it enough to matter? I can't really say).

If you really are selling quality items, it shouldn't matter if you're near a hub. This will be even more true when hubs no longer exist. No one will say "well, jimbos' hut of sensuality is selling some really fantastic stuff...but i don't want to go all the way to it" when all they have to do is double click on the map and they are IN jimbos' hut of sensuality. You say alot of people use certain stores of yours because they can just teleport to it by going to what they know is the nearest telehub...imagine if you could just have ONE store on ONE piece of land that is just as easily reached?

but blah blah...this is all meant to help answer the question:

Should hub land owners be compensated for the disposal of the telehub system?

I still say no.

<edited to remove the letter "s">

Not an issue since p2p teleport is on it's way. No need for telehubs.



Business owners with an ounce of business sense have already made back the extra they many, many times over.



Build a place people want to come to or sell a product that people want to buy. That's what brings people to shops.



Actually, successful stores are anywhere (and everywhere) already. Store owners benefit much more from having the store on their own land! That way they can list their products/services to have it come up in Find so customers can find them. That was always the downfall of malls....



The same way they always have. Setting their land permissions and the use of privacy scripts



Let's wait to see if this is actually a problem before we worry about it.



The SL world itself gives a sense of geography and space.


Finally, p2p teleporting should be free and available to everyone! A new way to get around the world should not penalize or restrict basic accounts or cash strapped denizens!!

Kazanture Aleixandre said:
"My english is bad i will try to tell my opinions.
I know the purpose of this meeting,because of this i will not say much
thing about removing hub logic is good or bad.
In my opinion it is the best idea i saw in SL, should be done much more before.
Discussing it looks like discussing
"internet": "OMG libraries will die!People will read everything from internet!"
I have no taboos, removing hubs is a good idea.

I dont have any hub land but i agree we must save hub land owners' rights.
I care for them only at this situation. And for them, traffic is important.
I saw only 4 choices to save traffic on hubs.
Worst one is:
giving free money to people at hubs, like contests or free money trees.
In my opinion this is the worst idea. I am against to every idea which
includes giving extra $L owned by lindens to people. I am against to every
idea which includes outside effects to SL.

The second choice is better:
Ressing residents on hub areas when they first sign on. They can go wherever they like with a one
click. It will create no problem. And the traffic on hubs will be saved.
I dont see any good on building super nice things on hubs. It solves nothing.
Or information centers, i never used any in the game information thing in this game.

Building super good nice structures never helps traffic on hubs,
People always will be able to build better things on other areas.
You can never reach same traffic on hubs.

My third choice is:
do p2p teleporting but at 2 steps.
1-> tp to hub.
2-> tp to the place from hub.
I mean let P2P teleporting works only hub areas.

The last choice is:
doing nothing to save the traffic on hubs.
And give other goods to hub owners extra prims or more dwell bonus etc.

For me i dont really like any of these ideas.
If you choose building nice things on hubs or info centers etc,a small time later, telehubs will be forgotten
and hub owners will lose."

Unfortunately none of those will generate traffic. Traffic is generated when a person stays on a land parcel for at least 5 minutes. It's not the actual hub that needs to generate traffic, it's the land arouond the hub that needs to. however i agree with one of the previous posters if the owners of these lands provide a product or attraction that people like and desire they will suffer no losses.

Why restrict our movement in the sims?
Your (or others) profits are more important than our convenience?
We are, first and foremost, customers of SL...then we can be your (or others) customers.
Adapt to the environment or don't do business anymore.
That is how a good company or organization survives.

~ Just my 2 cents ~

Much support for P2P teleporting seems fueled by anger at the garish, lag-creating, and unimaginative buildings that often surround telehubs. P2P probably will mitigate much of that ugly congestion. There are other supporters who think that P2P is going to be a very convenient means of transportation. That’s hard to argue with. The aspect that I have a problem with though, is the effect that P2P will have on the delightful illusion of SL being a contiguous geographic entity, of being a place rather than a collection of websites.
Some in this thread have said that this makes no difference to them. All I can say to that, I suppose, is that it does make some difference to me and that perhaps there are others that feel the same. I have the personal freedom not to use P2P and to continue exploring on foot or on wing; all the same, having the capability of P2P will change the attitude of many SL citizens and so reduce the immersiveness of the experience for everyone. Even if I explore on foot, if most everyone I meet regards SL as a collection of 3D websites, it’s not going to be the same.
One of the possibilities – already suggested by others & just repeated here – it to charge L$10 per P2P teleport. Telehubs would still be free. Maybe the landowners would be happier since, even though the premium on telehub land value would be much reduced, it would not be entirely gone. I (and others?) would be happier because geographical relationships would retain some meaning. Perhaps the Lindens would be happy because they would have another L$ sink with which to control inflation.

Anshe - what you've put forward goes in line with much that I laid out in a feature proposal I put forward last month (Prop. 757 and covered in more detail in the linked thread). This was also brought forward in several forums AND passed on to the Lindens at the end of the Telehub Meeting (I was unable to get a spot on the soapbox to present it).

As only 10 people have voted on this proposal to date I would have to say, with no small amount of dissappointment, that this is just NOT what the general populace of SL want. Additionally, I get the distinct impression that LL have made their mind up about how, where and when they are going to implement the Telehub destruction/P2P update, and are actually doing very little about what is being said by residents on the subject. Listening? Definitely - changing what they're doing? Very unlikely.

I'm afraid I've now resigned myself to the fact that this is swiftly becoming a lost cause.

Edit: Added missing link.

It pretty much looks as if they have made P2P work although likely not to the satisfaction of the original poster.

Might I suggest tilting at windmills as a more productive diversion?

Thus does Ms. Chung learn that yes, even she is susceptible to being screwed without notice.

Will customers learn from this lesson?

Will the continued and increasingly desperate flailing of Linden Labs trigger the appropriate alarms in its customer base?

Will these actions finally result in reaction that brings about the inevitable crash and burn as Linden Labs crosses the flashpoint of doing stupid things that alienate existing customers in hopes of drawing news ones?

Tune in and see for yourself! Same bat-time... same bat-channel!

ok, i've heard all sides of this subject, and i support the P2P teleport system that will be implimented in 1.8. Now before i get a garbage can full of 'do you own telehub land' replies, i'm going to tell you right now that it's irrelevant whether i do or not .. i payed to be here like other Premium members did so my voice isn't less important than those who do own telehub land. This is a realistic opinion and it's mine, don't flame me for it.

I own land in SL.. maybe i dont own Sims and Sims of land, but i am part of the land owner community and i will say that if you buy telehub land at an overinflated price and turn around and inflate it again by 200 percent and can't sell it due to the new P2P feature, then that is bad foresight on your part. Unlike said individuals, i dont come here to be a business person.. it's a fun, relaxing and interactive environment that i enjoy.. NOT because i think i'm gonna pay my RL bills with the money i make selling horrifically priced land to only people that can afford it or are too ignorant to realize they're getting ripped off. (what about the new person that would love to have their own home but can't afford to buy a 512 in the area they want to live in because someone has the price jacked up to 5k and it sits sandwiched between to sets of lag bag malls?)

I did some research in world.. and what i found was astronomically priced land around telehubs.. teeny teeny parcels for as much as 8899$L for 240 sq m parcel in a mature sim with a traffic of 5, 20 meters from the telehub.. to an astounding 1,000,000$L for 1024 in a PG sim.. in other areas i found land for sale at an unbelievable 37.1/m2.. what is wrong with these people?? when i asked what makes the land worth so much L's from one land owner, i was told it was because his sex shop was close by and N00bs would buy there.. um, in a PG sim? i think that's against the rules for starters and secondly i dont want my young relatives ending up in a PG sim and seeing sex furniture.

At any rate, P2P is only hurting those who *willingly* purchased 'telehub' land at high prices without anticipating change in the features of the game .. That's right, i said *Game*. I believe that Lindens have the good of the all in mind when they add or subtract features and content of the SL world as we all know it. (so you can think LL is hosing you.. it's not all about you believe it or not, it's about everyone) The wants of the few do not outweigh the good of the all no matter how much land you suck up and resell at perplexing prices .. and P2P teleportation is going to streamline how we get around in our Second Life. Business owners will have to be a bit more resourceful than they have had to be in the past.. currently being spoonfed potential customers will have to turn into creative advertising. Those brilliant business people will know exactly how to keep the traffic rolling .. i'm confident of that... if someone wants to visit your shop, they'll do so of their own free will, not because some hub dropped them there against their will.

Lastly i am against charging for P2P teleportation.. P2P is an added feature that Lindens did not mention they would charge for. You also have to look at the good things that have come from Lindens looking out for the good of the all.. taking away neg ratings for example... Don't try to make the simple things so difficult and burdensome.. It's a game people .. have fun and enjoy your second life.. if you can't enjoy it, then it's time to move on.

Belladonna, if you look at amount of US$ Linden Lab took for telehub land at auctions, maybe then you can realize the "astronomical" prices.

Most of those prices also have been justified, because the traffic the telehubs generated added significant value. No need to spend money or effort on events: the land would automatically bring the eyeballs and the shoppers. Telehub land allowed to create the low maintenance, low salary type of store/mall.

Linden Lab kept adding and auctioning the new telehub land until the last minute. They could have stopped selling telehub land several months in advantace, but they decided take the money even after they themselves knew that P2P will come. If Linden Lab is not going to adequately compensate telehub land owners that is called switch and bait, and nothing short of serious fraud. It would indeed be one scam.

Now I ask everybody here one simple question: what would the forums look like now if one resident, say your belove Anshe Chung, would have sold telehub land, then afterwards removed the telehub? This could actually have been possible in private estates. Imagine I would have sold land in Plush, charged double price for spots near telehub, then remove the telehub? Just ask yourself, what would people be posting on these forums? How would they call this business practise?

This is a very good point. I doubt anyone out there can honestly say that they don't think your name would have been dragged through the mud had you done something like that.

now that the hubs will no longer be used as entry points, the land value will go down.. i do understand your position Anshe.. but in the same respect you made a choice to buy there. there was no small print in the deed that said compensation would occur if the situation changed for that area. You could gather with lindens to try to work something out so that you do not feel so hard struck, and it will be almost impossible to sell at the rate you have it set for .. but in all business there are risks, and this happens to be one of them.

If you bet on a horse that won the last 8 races, and on the 9th race it tripped on a rock and lost.. you cannot ask the track to compensate you. The risk was yours to take.

If you spend 200$US in lottery tickets and never win, the state doesn't compensate you. If you buy 10 acres of land by the lake at premium price and the lake dries up.. you will not be compensated either. only fight the battles you can win Anshe. The rest is coping skills.

I guess thats a very true question and if linden had done that the situation would be very different indeed, as far as im aware the auction sim prices for land which has shown a teleport hub on the map has always been set as a starting price as the same as any other sim, they didnt set these up any differently ie telehub sims are gonna be worth more so lets charge them more initially ie minimum bid is 2000us$ also, in the bid information there no information about the parcel other than available land size and sim maturity rating, its the people who bid on it who decided its value and not linden labs, when released that land is still priced the same as public land, if nobody bid against you then you could pick up a sim for 1001us$, now they will be infohubs, and well as seen in the new map are marked by quite a prominent icon, so it will be upto people if they still think that this distinguishes them from any other plain sim land

The same thing we're calling it now, only more people would be in on it and willing to admit that it is what it is.

I suppose it is a rather rude slap to find out you're really not the special customer you think you are, but honey, frankly, that's a known fact for anyone who is actually keeping their eyes open and their heads clear.

Does anyone really think they're going to pull Linden Labs off this path? Think again. Someone has sold them a bill of goods about the juicy carrot of the mainstream market and they aren't quite savvy enough to (or is it that they're too desperate to) accept that mainstream customers want more simplicity, functionality, reliability, and hand-holding than they are willing (or able) to provide.

They're after the AOL crowd, folks. Trouble is, they can't provide the id10t proof product that will get it for them.

The business practice of overhyping hub land at auction was about as customer-friendly and partner-friendly as all other LL business practices - which is to say, atrocious.

I do believe that Anshe bought over-hyped land as I believe all paying customers have bought over-hyped services. I actually feel bad for Anshe and crew that they are taking a bath on this; unfortunately, Anshe, like many others took a gamble on Linden Lab behaving in a forthright manner and have been screwed over in the process. In the case of the telehub land, the auction prices may have been set unreasonably high - do recall that until the last month or so every voice at LL seemed to think that there was nothing but skies raining money ahead so they may have overpriced out of over-exuberance.

Unfortunately, as I see it, LL had to implement P2P teleports in order to keep the system as a whole from falling on its face. That it is adversely affecting the anticipated payback for AnsheCorp is a shame, but even if telehub land were owned equally by all customers, the system limitations would force them into enabling P2P. As I've noted elsewhere, many telehub visitors are "accidental" and cause a severe load on the asset server because most telehub arrivals are trying to be somewhere else yet the system has to try to send them the telehub content anyway. Adding P2P will reduce load on the asset server that is nearly dead from over-exertion already.

As far as compensation goes, that LL has never compensated any (with maybe a trivial exception or two) for inventory loss, screwing them out of the currency market, lost merchant sales resulting from the 1.7 release of doom, etc. has always been a stain on their image. Only now it is getting more visible and more widespread.

LL is a terrible firm to do business with. Given the promises of the platform, they should have way more than one bank running one advertising sim as a business partner. That they do not is a direct result of all these failings.

Nothing prevent Linden Lab from implementing P2P, then compensating telehub land owners.

On my own continent and in my malls I have had to make the necessary changes. Such as adding new sims that would turn land that was ocean into normal land. I also never promised when selling that land it would remain ocean and did not even charge the higher price for it. Still, when doing such change I did the following things:

1. I called one meeting to invite residents and discussed expansion plans and changes weeks before

2. I gave all land owners at the sim edge free choice of swap their land for other land in Dreamland, including the oceanfront land in the new added sims

This is what I consider appropriate way of doing business. Similarily, when I have to close/rebuild the malls I reimburse every retailer effected the rent.

In contrast to this, Linden Lab took 100000 US$ from people who believed they would be able to benefit from telehub traffic. As far as I know, until some months ago Linden Lab even set the starting bid for telehub land higher than for the normal land. What is even worse is that even when Linden Lab already knew that they would be going implement P2P, they kept adding telehub land on auction and sell it to residents without sharing the knowledge they had.

Therefore I do expect Linden Lab compensate us. Otherwise you probably know yourself with what terms to describe their business practise

2 differences

1. they are not removing the hubs, just repurposing them. Yeah they won't experience the same amount of traffic, but people will be less irritated with travel in general

2. LL did not charge more for hub land initially. People who origionally bought the land paid more for it. Where did the idea that hub land was more valuable than other land come from??? Did LL market the land as more valuable or did land barons do that?

from my own observations, it was bought in auctions from LL, high yes.. (but not at the rate it's being sold at now) .. those who wished to profit from this exclusive landing area expotentially increased for more than what they bought for.. thus creating this inflated cost to have your business near a hub. There is another case where a person feel their land is so valuable being by the hub that they sell their land at a rate of 37.1/m2 .. that's even more than what some 'land barons' are being accused of .. heck that's highway robbery! lol BUT will be a thing of the past once 1.8 is released for production. Good luck to all telehub (InfoHub) land owners. I do wish them all well and feel for their situation.

I agree with half of what you are saying, I don't think there is any basis for blaming any group of people for valuing the land however including land barons. People who sell or rent land would not pay high amounts for the land initially, if others weren't willing to pay that land seller or renter larger amounts of money to own or use the land.

I think you were correct a few months ago when you stated that land near the telehub didn't have the actual usefulness to warrant the price they were being sold for, but the value things are sold for is not based off of its usefulness. It that was true, then antiques and collector's items would be no more expensive than new things. Things are sold based on their perceived value. The reason it was viewed as so valuable was because most of the people buying land showed a willingness to pay much more for that land, not because land barons were telling everyone it was more useful.

Now on that note, I am curious why some land owners at telehubs want their land to have a guaranteed value, yet I doubt they ever gave any guaranteed value to their renters. If a renter came to them and asked for a refund, because they didn't get any traffic in their store from the telehub, would the land owner give them compensation? Those that pay attention have been given warning and some compensation. They should be happy for what they got.