Second Life Forums Archive - Ownership / Materialist Society?

Bruno Buckenburger

Registered User

Join date: 30 Dec 2004

Posts: 464

03-18-2005 10:29

From: Persephone Phoenix

*adds to Bruno that she always cringes when a man calls a woman a whore, even generally. eww. why not just say escort? whore sounds so ugly for an activity that, in the context of SL, isn't really even exploitative, in my opinion.*

Pers, I didn't select that word to get a rise out of anyone but I do find it interesting that my choice of words makes you cringe more than what is clearly an exploitive activity. Yes it is a choice and I personally endorse the industry but in any context, selling sexual services is exploitive. Not that this is the point of the thread so I will back away. Just wanted to comment since you didn't care for my term.

Bruno Buckenburger

Registered User

Join date: 30 Dec 2004

Posts: 464

03-18-2005 10:46

From: Buster Peel

For a hint of thngs to come, go read "Anshe bought XXX" thread.

Linden has a great incentive, and has shown an inclination, to make entertaining SL users profitable. In effect, "entertainers" (i.e., any member who provides entertainment value for other members) are partnering with Linden Labs. If a member A entertains member B, member B is more likely to keep giving REAL $ to Linden Labs.

This is a feedback loop. The profitability of entertainment in general will grow, because the real-world incentives for Linden to reward entertainment are very compelling. Land barons are profiteering in ways that don't add very much value for Linden Labs.

Anshe sees this, and she's branching out in that direction. That's where the money is going to be, because that is a magnet for REAL $ coming into Linden Labs.

Entertainment creates $, trading (in anything) just moves the $ around.

Buster

You should do P.R. for Anshe

I personally do not think that Tringo, malls, a strip club and a wild west theme mall/tringo/strip club is the formula for continued success. Maybe it will work for her because she may be pumping in a lot of Euros to keep the enterprise afloat.

Persephone Phoenix

loving laptopvideo2go.com

Join date: 5 Nov 2004

Posts: 1,012

Ty for the last statement

03-18-2005 13:48

I'm glad you see it as a seperate issue from whether LL should fund the arts. I would hate to think that the only events worth having or paying for are the quest type events, because if that is all the landscape becomes (quests, first person shooters and tringo) then I guess it won't be as interesting of a landscape for me. Maybe I'm way unusual though, and LL is on the way to being the best place ever for folks who don't like social or arts events.

By the way, I am seeing steady drop-ins at the spa due to people being attracted to the actual build, so folks who think all events hosts are out to make a quick buck by hoodwinking poor noobs into coming to their black boxes are generalizing in the worst possible way.

A person I really respect and with whom I thought I had gotten on quite well got angry and snippy with me when a noob friend of hers was tped to the spa and assumed that someone hoodwinked him. I later provided details of our IM conversation to her so that she could see for herself that he told me he was bored and asked how to get to the spa, so, mid-event I tped him. It is sad that there has been so much divisiveness in the events funding dialogue. Builders, artists, events hosts, scripters and social players all need one another. To think that we can sacrifice any of the people in that formula is dangerous if one is concerned with the long-term growth and health of SL.

Cheers. Hope everyone has a great weekend!

From: Forseti Svarog

LOL perseph, i thought we had discussed this. There was a concern about inflation (too many L$ being created by LL rather than being circulated between residents -- although arguable that stipend bonuses were a bigger issue here so this was probably not the primary reason) and there was a concern that the LL payment was influencing events in a negative way by offering a blanket subsidy and skewing the incentive structure and natural improvement-via-market-competition.

i wrote a whole lot more and just deleted it cause it's already been said by me and others.

I *still* think that the changes will lead to better events. You'll either have free ones given by people who are having fun with it and doing it for the love of it, or you'll have events that are oriented around a business model. I think the new model around events removes state-funded event competition and actually gives these business-model-driven, well-thought-out events a greater chance at coming to life. And these events are the ones that will really take in-world entertainment to the next level because people will be willing to invest in a bigger production (and customers are willing to pay for a bigger production)

So yes, I could argue that the previous subsidy for events was actually holding events back. Time will tell of course.

BTW, this is a separate argument from whether LL should fund the arts.

(Now a lot of business ventures fail, and a lot of events will also fail but such is life and what every other SL entrepreneur faces...)

_____________________

Events are everyone's business.

Jake Reitveld

Emperor of Second Life

Join date: 9 Mar 2005

Posts: 2,690

03-18-2005 13:57

hehehe Well sooner than later everyone will need lawyers and all the money will go to us.

Cherry Took

Mud Wrestling Champeeeen

Join date: 7 Jan 2005

Posts: 160

needs a lawer? erm, not in SL.

03-24-2005 16:26

*shudders* *is paying for one of them out the nose irl to take care of a divorce, so paying for a lawyer in 2nd life is something she will strenuously avoid.* (nothing personal.)

I did have an issue lately where I perceived someone to have taken my intellectual property as his or hers. A few conversations later, in world, and all was cleared up. (A prototype of my Truth or Dare game had gotten set loose in the wild, but was quickly lassoed and rounded up by one of the development team. ;-D)

A general set of rules for settling disputes without lawyers:
1. Talk to the person with whom you have the difficulty in reasonable terms, avoiding a frustrated tone and addressing the issue only when you are not feeling any emotional adrenaline. If there is adrenaline, wait for 40 minutes, doing something entirely unrelated and calming if possible, before addressing the issue.
2. Bring something to the table (find where you might have been mistaken or where you have the power to "give" toward the larger goal of mutually met needs).
3. Avoid blame, and make all communication goal- and solution-oriented.
4. Listen actively to the other parties concerned. This means actually listening and absorbing what was said before beginning your response, and paraphrasing the speaker to indicate what you heard if there is any item that might be the cause of confusion or concern.

Maybe if we employ these strategies, avoid namecalling and abusive language, and abide by the golden rule, we can avoid a land o lawyers in Second Life.

~ Cherry.

Strangeweather Bomazi

has no clever catchphrase

Join date: 29 Jan 2005

Posts: 116

03-25-2005 09:37

From: Persephone Phoenix

Hm. Well I guess we must agree,with utmost respect, to disagree on the issue that paying events hosts through LL subsidy was holding events back. And if it will make these amazing, high production business events, then so be it. Only time will tell there. I have yet to see this happen. What I see is slingo, tringo, one or two events other than slingo or tringo, and mayyyyyybe as many as 3 classes per week. It has been nearly two months after events funding was cut, so it seems a good time to examine the schedule for change as by now the impact has truly been felt. Comparing the events schedule now to the events schedule in early to mid january immediately reveals a shift to events that can self-sustain (tringo and slingo). Other events have become an endangered species from what I can see. I hope that turns around.

Perse,

I could be dead wrong, but I think there are so many Tringo events and such simply because people like Tringo. I was in college when Tetris came out, and there was a period when pretty much everyone I knew there played a fair bit of it. I think there would be at least as many Tringo events if the Lindens were still sponsoring events, and probably more because the Lindens would be paying people to host Tringo.

I would love to see innovative events like yours sponsored, but I don't see any reason for them to sponsor Tringo, especially since it's obviously capable of supporting itself. The Lindens clearly think it's too hard to sort out the worthy from the unworthy, so they have stopped supporting everything except classes.

_____________________

Strangeweather Designs - classic casual home furnishings
Now open in Mochastyle, Mocha (13, 115)

ArchTx Edo

Mystic/Artist/Architect

Join date: 13 Feb 2005

Posts: 1,993

03-25-2005 10:10

From: Hiro Pendragon

I was thinking about the no Pay = No play threads... wanted to raise a question:

Are people far more likely to pay money for an item to own than they are for an event?

If so / not, how much / less likely?

Events are transitory moments in time, one-time experiences. Objects are more lasting and can be used to enhance ones experiences over and over again. Such as the sailboat I bought that will both sail and fly.

I paid L$400 for it, I can't imagine an event that I would pay that much for....

...I take it back, if Timothy Leary showed up in SL to explain what afterlife is all about, that I would pay for.

_____________________

VRchitecture Model Homes at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Shona/60/220/30
http://www.slexchange.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&MerchantID=2240
http://shop.onrez.com/Archtx_Edo

Persephone Phoenix

loving laptopvideo2go.com

Join date: 5 Nov 2004

Posts: 1,012

But what will you remember?

03-29-2005 19:57

I have a lot of stuff in my inventory. Lots of it completely surprises me when I see it because I utterly forgot about it. Many items I have purchased, used once, been disappointed and deleted, given away, or simply left there to suck up bandwidth for no good reason. Some items I have purchased are awesome because they enhance what SL is all about for me: the experience.

I will remember the friends I made in SL, the people who trusted me with their investment in time, friendship, or money in business. I will remember the fun times I had and the silly avatars I made, and the romantic or erotic nights spent with someone special. The stuff I will remember only because it enhanced the events I went to, or the times I had (outside of events).

_____________________

Events are everyone's business.

Ownership / Materialist Society?
Bruno Buckenburger Registered User Join date: 30 Dec 2004 Posts: 464	03-18-2005 10:29 From: Persephone Phoenix adds to Bruno that she always cringes when a man calls a woman a whore, even generally. eww. why not just say escort? whore sounds so ugly for an activity that, in the context of SL, isn't really even exploitative, in my opinion. Pers, I didn't select that word to get a rise out of anyone but I do find it interesting that my choice of words makes you cringe more than what is clearly an exploitive activity. Yes it is a choice and I personally endorse the industry but in any context, selling sexual services is exploitive. Not that this is the point of the thread so I will back away. Just wanted to comment since you didn't care for my term.
Bruno Buckenburger Registered User Join date: 30 Dec 2004 Posts: 464	03-18-2005 10:46 From: Buster Peel For a hint of thngs to come, go read "Anshe bought XXX" thread. Linden has a great incentive, and has shown an inclination, to make entertaining SL users profitable. In effect, "entertainers" (i.e., any member who provides entertainment value for other members) are partnering with Linden Labs. If a member A entertains member B, member B is more likely to keep giving REAL $ to Linden Labs. This is a feedback loop. The profitability of entertainment in general will grow, because the real-world incentives for Linden to reward entertainment are very compelling. Land barons are profiteering in ways that don't add very much value for Linden Labs. Anshe sees this, and she's branching out in that direction. That's where the money is going to be, because that is a magnet for REAL $ coming into Linden Labs. Entertainment creates $, trading (in anything) just moves the $ around. Buster You should do P.R. for Anshe I personally do not think that Tringo, malls, a strip club and a wild west theme mall/tringo/strip club is the formula for continued success. Maybe it will work for her because she may be pumping in a lot of Euros to keep the enterprise afloat.
Persephone Phoenix loving laptopvideo2go.com Join date: 5 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,012	Ty for the last statement 03-18-2005 13:48 I'm glad you see it as a seperate issue from whether LL should fund the arts. I would hate to think that the only events worth having or paying for are the quest type events, because if that is all the landscape becomes (quests, first person shooters and tringo) then I guess it won't be as interesting of a landscape for me. Maybe I'm way unusual though, and LL is on the way to being the best place ever for folks who don't like social or arts events. By the way, I am seeing steady drop-ins at the spa due to people being attracted to the actual build, so folks who think all events hosts are out to make a quick buck by hoodwinking poor noobs into coming to their black boxes are generalizing in the worst possible way. A person I really respect and with whom I thought I had gotten on quite well got angry and snippy with me when a noob friend of hers was tped to the spa and assumed that someone hoodwinked him. I later provided details of our IM conversation to her so that she could see for herself that he told me he was bored and asked how to get to the spa, so, mid-event I tped him. It is sad that there has been so much divisiveness in the events funding dialogue. Builders, artists, events hosts, scripters and social players all need one another. To think that we can sacrifice any of the people in that formula is dangerous if one is concerned with the long-term growth and health of SL. Cheers. Hope everyone has a great weekend! From: Forseti Svarog LOL perseph, i thought we had discussed this. There was a concern about inflation (too many L$ being created by LL rather than being circulated between residents -- although arguable that stipend bonuses were a bigger issue here so this was probably not the primary reason) and there was a concern that the LL payment was influencing events in a negative way by offering a blanket subsidy and skewing the incentive structure and natural improvement-via-market-competition. i wrote a whole lot more and just deleted it cause it's already been said by me and others. I still think that the changes will lead to better events. You'll either have free ones given by people who are having fun with it and doing it for the love of it, or you'll have events that are oriented around a business model. I think the new model around events removes state-funded event competition and actually gives these business-model-driven, well-thought-out events a greater chance at coming to life. And these events are the ones that will really take in-world entertainment to the next level because people will be willing to invest in a bigger production (and customers are willing to pay for a bigger production) So yes, I could argue that the previous subsidy for events was actually holding events back. Time will tell of course. BTW, this is a separate argument from whether LL should fund the arts. (Now a lot of business ventures fail, and a lot of events will also fail but such is life and what every other SL entrepreneur faces...) _____________________ Events are everyone's business.
Jake Reitveld Emperor of Second Life Join date: 9 Mar 2005 Posts: 2,690	03-18-2005 13:57 hehehe Well sooner than later everyone will need lawyers and all the money will go to us.
Cherry Took Mud Wrestling Champeeeen Join date: 7 Jan 2005 Posts: 160	needs a lawer? erm, not in SL. 03-24-2005 16:26 shudders is paying for one of them out the nose irl to take care of a divorce, so paying for a lawyer in 2nd life is something she will strenuously avoid. (nothing personal.) I did have an issue lately where I perceived someone to have taken my intellectual property as his or hers. A few conversations later, in world, and all was cleared up. (A prototype of my Truth or Dare game had gotten set loose in the wild, but was quickly lassoed and rounded up by one of the development team. ;-D) A general set of rules for settling disputes without lawyers: 1. Talk to the person with whom you have the difficulty in reasonable terms, avoiding a frustrated tone and addressing the issue only when you are not feeling any emotional adrenaline. If there is adrenaline, wait for 40 minutes, doing something entirely unrelated and calming if possible, before addressing the issue. 2. Bring something to the table (find where you might have been mistaken or where you have the power to "give" toward the larger goal of mutually met needs). 3. Avoid blame, and make all communication goal- and solution-oriented. 4. Listen actively to the other parties concerned. This means actually listening and absorbing what was said before beginning your response, and paraphrasing the speaker to indicate what you heard if there is any item that might be the cause of confusion or concern. Maybe if we employ these strategies, avoid namecalling and abusive language, and abide by the golden rule, we can avoid a land o lawyers in Second Life. ~ Cherry.
Strangeweather Bomazi has no clever catchphrase Join date: 29 Jan 2005 Posts: 116	03-25-2005 09:37 From: Persephone Phoenix Hm. Well I guess we must agree,with utmost respect, to disagree on the issue that paying events hosts through LL subsidy was holding events back. And if it will make these amazing, high production business events, then so be it. Only time will tell there. I have yet to see this happen. What I see is slingo, tringo, one or two events other than slingo or tringo, and mayyyyyybe as many as 3 classes per week. It has been nearly two months after events funding was cut, so it seems a good time to examine the schedule for change as by now the impact has truly been felt. Comparing the events schedule now to the events schedule in early to mid january immediately reveals a shift to events that can self-sustain (tringo and slingo). Other events have become an endangered species from what I can see. I hope that turns around. Perse, I could be dead wrong, but I think there are so many Tringo events and such simply because people like Tringo. I was in college when Tetris came out, and there was a period when pretty much everyone I knew there played a fair bit of it. I think there would be at least as many Tringo events if the Lindens were still sponsoring events, and probably more because the Lindens would be paying people to host Tringo. I would love to see innovative events like yours sponsored, but I don't see any reason for them to sponsor Tringo, especially since it's obviously capable of supporting itself. The Lindens clearly think it's too hard to sort out the worthy from the unworthy, so they have stopped supporting everything except classes. _____________________ Strangeweather Designs - classic casual home furnishings Now open in Mochastyle, Mocha (13, 115)
ArchTx Edo Mystic/Artist/Architect Join date: 13 Feb 2005 Posts: 1,993	03-25-2005 10:10 From: Hiro Pendragon I was thinking about the no Pay = No play threads... wanted to raise a question: Are people far more likely to pay money for an item to own than they are for an event? If so / not, how much / less likely? Events are transitory moments in time, one-time experiences. Objects are more lasting and can be used to enhance ones experiences over and over again. Such as the sailboat I bought that will both sail and fly. I paid L$400 for it, I can't imagine an event that I would pay that much for.... ...I take it back, if Timothy Leary showed up in SL to explain what afterlife is all about, that I would pay for. _____________________ VRchitecture Model Homes at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Shona/60/220/30 http://www.slexchange.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&MerchantID=2240 http://shop.onrez.com/Archtx_Edo
Persephone Phoenix loving laptopvideo2go.com Join date: 5 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,012	But what will you remember? 03-29-2005 19:57 I have a lot of stuff in my inventory. Lots of it completely surprises me when I see it because I utterly forgot about it. Many items I have purchased, used once, been disappointed and deleted, given away, or simply left there to suck up bandwidth for no good reason. Some items I have purchased are awesome because they enhance what SL is all about for me: the experience. I will remember the friends I made in SL, the people who trusted me with their investment in time, friendship, or money in business. I will remember the fun times I had and the silly avatars I made, and the romantic or erotic nights spent with someone special. The stuff I will remember only because it enhanced the events I went to, or the times I had (outside of events). _____________________ Events are everyone's business.

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