Ownership / Materialist Society?

I was thinking about the no Pay = No play threads... wanted to raise a question:

Are people far more likely to pay money for an item to own than they are for an event?

If so / not, how much / less likely?

Some people won't buy anything, but do want to go to events. Other people love to shop. (I know some in RL lol.)

Are you asking, "I want to make money, should I make things or host events?" Is that what you are asking?

If so, I would say, do what you are good at. There isn't a good answer to "what works in SL". The questions is, "what works FOR ME in SL".

SL is evolving rapidly. I think the economy is more land and vendor driven now, but over time it will become more social and event driven. (i.e., social type things will grow faster than the material economy.) This is just my personal opinion. I think Tringo is the forerunner of many things to come. Not Tringo-clones, but the notion that people join SL in order to participate in activities that nobody has thought of yet. Buying and selling is great, will go on and grow forever, but the social aspects require a larger pool of potential participants.

I can see bridge tournaments, chess clubs, debating societies, public speakers, singles parties, book clubs, all sorts of things happening that can't happen until the community grows large enough. The larger the community grows, the better the chance for "fringe groups" or events that only interest a small percentage of the population. Someday entertainment tycoons will outnumber land barons. Buster's prediction, write it down.

Buster

I think you're dead wrong about this LOL. Sorry, but there it is.

Why? Because from my limited experience in SL of six months, I just don't see this. I see the opposite. There *used to be* a social life of sorts, the clubs and av decoration and av sex sessions, but it took a serious beating with the loss of ratings bonuses and grants for events. I used to see more events like Thinkers, but now I see less, because it's hard, and boring, and people like to think these things will appear but then they don't, because human nature being what it is, people want something more thrilling, and only a small percentage of them will work hard at being entertained. I think the social life is picking up as people nest more and consolidate but I think there is always a kind of free-floating dissipation and entropy at work in a system like this that always tears at its seams and makes it possible for mafias and totalitarians to constantly threaten the social fabric.

We realized in TSO that when all these noble and dedicated folk organized stuff like debating societies and public speeches or poetry readings or plays or book clubs, it was *hella boring*. I mean DULLSVILLE. You could rather sit around the house and watch the paint peel. I mean, staring at a coupla avs struggle through "Waiting For Godot" complete with crashes, server lags, and ppl blurting out stuff in the chat room instead of in IMs, and you have yourself a picnic with ants.

Oops, did I say "chat room"? I did. Because you'd think on the kewl Internet people would do all these fabulous connected groovy things, but instead, people being just people and not electrons, they do come to socialize, but that involves things that aren't on your menu, like av decoration, house buying and decorating, even getting married, having weddings, having *babies* -- I kid you not. There is this whole dense inner life that just doesn't fit your utopian notion of all these activities you think right-thinking young people ought to do. They don't. They want to decorate, nest, spoon, whatever. When they aren't buying cool vehicles like Shiryu's (shameless infomercial) or Bonecrusher's (shameless infomercial) and tooling around SL trying to cross sim seams.

Entertainment tycoons will NEVER outnumber land barons or the creative intelligentisa/technocratia. Will Wright used to say that 10 percent of the players would provide the content for the other 90 percent. There's only a few who will bother. That's about right, from what I have seen. If it isn't Tringo or Texas Hold Em, it will be something even more mindless that pays out even more.

I've found my niche, but you did give good advice for others. I'm just curious about human behaviour ... because people will pay $1000L for something they own, but event people seem to be saying that people won't pay 25L for an event

I expect nothing less. (Apologizing for disagreeing? Come now. Its in your nature.)



That's why the community has to be large. (Poetry readings? I don't think THAT will happen.) Early adopters are always different, same all over. I don't think you can extrapolate future member behavior from early member behavior -- I think the nature of the universe changes over time.

My examples may not be the best, let's just say "activities". A lot of things that people do on internet game sites (like Yahoo Games) will appear in-world, I think. Good a place as any.



Oh yea, count me out too.



And what's THIS? These here forums? Hey, you LIKE it. Admit it. Art of conversation. There's room for chatrooms. Not the most exciting thing, granted. But hey, talk talk talk. Blah blah blah.



Wanna put money on that? I got L$100 smackers that says that two years from now, entertainment tycoons will outnumber land barons. C'mon, put yer money where yer mouth is!

Has.

I fondly remember some limerick nights... they were a hoot!

Events are fleeting and in many cases you just don't know what you are getting. I spent 2 hours at a basic scripting class today and learned something that should have only taken 15 minutes to learn. I am sure I would have been really upset if I had to pay tuition for the class. I did tip because I did learn something but had I paid upfront I would have been upset.

You go to a rock concert in RL, you expect to pay for tickets and you get what you expect in return, a live performance. You go to a movie, you have some idea what it is and it is (hopefully) on a big screen with good sound. In SL, you have no idea what you are getting. I wouldn't pay to attend something like a club contest because it is rarely anything other than a popularity contest, a gamed contest by people bringing their friends and skew the voting or an outright rigged contest. I mean how right is it to win a costume or themed contest event and not even bother to put on a costume. Had I paid for the privelige to be there, I'm sure I would have been even more pissed off. I have been to some really well run, enjoyable events in SL but I have also been to a lot of really suck ass events and have seen my share of slimey tricks pulled. I won't pay to attend any sort of event like that, ever.

Now Darklife, on the other hand, is something I don't mind paying for. The production values are evident and it is fun, especially in groups. I would definitly pay to play in Chinatown if I were into shooting people. I don't mind paying a fee to see a really great build that obviously had taken a lot of work and skill to constuct.

SL Historical Fact:

I've had poetry reading events in SL, as have several others, and these were well attended.

See that? I was wrong about being wrong.

Yes, this is a problem. I think an event rating system is needed.

When you attend a RL seminar or conference, usually the sponsor will distribute "rate the event" scorecards that attendees anonamously fill out. Was the event worthwhile? Did you like it? Was it well run? Was it what you expected? How could it be made better?

We need event attendees to fill out these questionaires, and then make the statistics available in the event finder so that you can see what previous attendees thought of the event.

Maybe an Event Review forum would do the trick. One thread per event host, with an open ended poll, didja like the event run by this person, and share your thoughts. (Kinda like movie reviews.)

Buster

I like this idea Buster. people would game the system though. They could stack the review poll with favorable comments by alts just to get the publicity. it would turn into just another marketing thing.

True, some people would game it, so it wouldn't provide a guarantee. But on balance I think really good events would be easier to find out about and there might be more of them if hosts aren't discouraged by being burried in a list of wannabes that sipnon off their attendees. This would, of course, make it harder to get started in an area with well established long-timers, but that is the way the ball bounces. Talent will bubble to the surface.

Linden has an after-the-fact popularity system (traffic based) for places. Something similar is needed for events.

Buster

Also remember that not everyone has a killer computer, and many avs on the screen drop some people's computer performance. That's usually what keeps me from going to the club.

No scientific research here but people will generally pay more for an item that they own vs. an event. What skews the curve are events that include or may lead to the sale of services, such as whores.

It amazes me that people pay for escorts but the dollars the whoring industry generates would skew the numbers as it relates to your question. Take away the events that generate sex services and I think it is a slam-dunk that people would pay more for an item.

We could have events barons that equal land barons some day (keep in mind that there truly aren't that many land barons who do fabulously well, maybe a handfull). There will be the few teams who can meet staffing needs to keep a steady stream of five minute traffic required to make the traffic list (a system that is geared to reward malls much more than clubs as a person's ''dwell" is redundant after five minutes have elapsed). I imagine that this calculation of dwell will encourage more "see the grand EGRESS"type offerings as well as short games like Acrophobia (shameless plug for the acronym game by palidyn mcteague).

I think something that is key to remember is that materialists also need events and events, now more than ever, need materialists. Some builders are so well established that they have vendors at every telehub or are so legendary in their fields that they need nothing more than word of mouth to sell their products. Said builders are the minority of people making stuff. The rest of the folks who make stuff need people to see it, to talk about it, to wear it, to commend it. They need to sell their stuff at places where people go. There is genuine incentive for builders / scripters / etc. to build relationships with events hosts because events hosts can get people to see or care about your stuff. Shopping areas can add to a club / event locale's traffic significantly as only 5 minutes matters anyway.

As for poetry nights and culture, the assumption that these things are dull is a sad one. I hosted dynamite poet's open mic and poetry wall events in tso, prokofy, (one that springs to mind is an evening where a 17 year old who had never written poetry did an entire series of haiku of office supplies which had us in stitches! though i realize this is one of those you just had to be there things).

*adds to Bruno that she always cringes when a man calls a woman a whore, even generally. eww. why not just say escort? whore sounds so ugly for an activity that, in the context of SL, isn't really even exploitative, in my opinion.*

mkay, well that said, a way to see this blend of materialism and experiencism in practice would be to go to a club with a successful vendor area. Which reminds me: the Phoenix Spa (which always used the animations of waves lightcloud) now has a room where folks can buy his stuff. We hope that the needs of both materialists and experiencists can be met under one 4096m roof. ~Persephone P.

(to the tune of the oft chanted "where's my free money": buy my expensive money!) hehe.

For a hint of thngs to come, go read "Anshe bought XXX" thread.

Linden has a great incentive, and has shown an inclination, to make entertaining SL users profitable. In effect, "entertainers" (i.e., any member who provides entertainment value for other members) are partnering with Linden Labs. If a member A entertains member B, member B is more likely to keep giving REAL $ to Linden Labs.

This is a feedback loop. The profitability of entertainment in general will grow, because the real-world incentives for Linden to reward entertainment are very compelling. Land barons are profiteering in ways that don't add very much value for Linden Labs.

Anshe sees this, and she's branching out in that direction. That's where the money is going to be, because that is a magnet for REAL $ coming into Linden Labs.

Entertainment creates $, trading (in anything) just moves the $ around.

Buster

I dissagree with you here. Dwell isn't redundant after the first five minutes. Dwell counting "kicks off" after the first five minutes. The way it works is: everyone gets 1 dwell point per day to give away to the locations they dwell at. At each arrival to a new location, the dwell counting starts after five minutes have elapsed. After that, a record is kept on how long you actually dwelled in that particular location. At the end of the day, that "1" point you had will be distributed amongst all the locations you have a record kept on, and will be proportional to the total amount of time spent past the first five minutes.

Everyone's dwell is normalised to a 100% value and each person will recieve dwell bonuses depending on the result of multiplying their dwell score by the total bonus amount allotted by Linden Labs for that day.

Best regards!

I misread the faq! thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding of the dwell calculation.

I completely agree Buster. I guess what I dont understand, then, is why so many many people hated LL giving $L to sponsor events then, since LL is the major beneficiary of such events. So, events mean money for everyone other than the events hosts? sad.

I hope that LL reconsiders paying events hosts, even if it is under a new model. Or that businesses start earnestly sponsoring events. So far, out of the 9 people whom I jotted down names for, after they promised to hire events host at the same rate (or even promised a raise) on the forums never were able to actually do anything about what they said, aside from Anshe Chung. In some ways this has felt like a tactic of "what are you complaining about, money? i'll give ya money" then not answering the door when the person comes to collect. Maybe I'm talking to the wrong businesses? *scratches her head*

LOL perseph, i thought we had discussed this. There was a concern about inflation (too many L$ being created by LL rather than being circulated between residents -- although arguable that stipend bonuses were a bigger issue here so this was probably not the primary reason) and there was a concern that the LL payment was influencing events in a negative way by offering a blanket subsidy and skewing the incentive structure and natural improvement-via-market-competition.

i wrote a whole lot more and just deleted it cause it's already been said by me and others.

I *still* think that the changes will lead to better events. You'll either have free ones given by people who are having fun with it and doing it for the love of it, or you'll have events that are oriented around a business model. I think the new model around events removes state-funded event competition and actually gives these business-model-driven, well-thought-out events a greater chance at coming to life. And these events are the ones that will really take in-world entertainment to the next level because people will be willing to invest in a bigger production (and customers are willing to pay for a bigger production)

So yes, I could argue that the previous subsidy for events was actually holding events back. Time will tell of course.

BTW, this is a separate argument from whether LL should fund the arts.

(Now a lot of business ventures fail, and a lot of events will also fail but such is life and what every other SL entrepreneur faces...)

Hm. Well I guess we must agree,with utmost respect, to disagree on the issue that paying events hosts through LL subsidy was holding events back. And if it will make these amazing, high production business events, then so be it. Only time will tell there. I have yet to see this happen. What I see is slingo, tringo, one or two events other than slingo or tringo, and mayyyyyybe as many as 3 classes per week. It has been nearly two months after events funding was cut, so it seems a good time to examine the schedule for change as by now the impact has truly been felt. Comparing the events schedule now to the events schedule in early to mid january immediately reveals a shift to events that can self-sustain (tringo and slingo). Other events have become an endangered species from what I can see. I hope that turns around.

well, my opinion is not locked in stone -- i'm just guessing at the dynamics at play here like everyone else. I do hear you, but i do think it's too early to judge.

Side note: I counted 5 teaching classes just today. And you might have noticed the classes thread that catherine started addressing this issue of a paucity of classes. The Touchstone group is already in motion...

these "amazing, high production" events are not going to happen overnight. They require an investment in time and money, the technology infrastructure has to be there (fewer bugs, maybe it will wait until havok 2... don't know), and the population and it's behavior/attitudes needs to be in place to support something. That said, these types of events will struggle to EVER happen if they are competing against subsidized money-giveaways all the time.

ah well, i'm probably just making you mad. hugs

"The Phoenix Spa (which always used the animations of waves lightcloud) now has a room where folks can buy his stuff. We hope that the needs of both materialists and experiencists can be met under one 4096m roof. ~Persephone P. "

Thank you Pers for the plug, and let me just say again, that the mud bath massage I got from Cherry at The Phoneix Spa was Yummylicious!!! O.O

Waves and I have operated this way since the beginning of finding our niche in SL.
We combined material and experince in our place by using Sensuals tango dances and Vindis formal wear. Although, our place has never been a big traffic drawing establishment, we are happy with the results we have created and plan to stay that way.

I was also going to add a comment about the topic of this thread, but my boss is yaking at me and I have to get back to work and I cant think right now. Can you believe that???? Grrrrrrr

It is great to meet folks in-world like the marvellous Tang! What positive energy.

I wonder if people aren't interested in events as much as gaming? If the whole model is about to shift to one big game platform for games in the game, such as the first person shooter, etc. I hope not because running after stuff and shooting at it makes me dizzy. ;-P

hugs to everyone. great thread.

Hey Cherry, I thought about adding some games to the game, and Waves said - "Hey I am game!" But then we just figured someone would start gaming our games, and then we said, snap, "we aint playing that game". So now we just sit back in the game and enjoy the normal game.