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Best Interest of Player's Versus Businesses

Dark Korvin
Player in the RL game
Join date: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 769
09-18-2005 12:15
From: Smiley Sneerwell
This is several problems in one. one, Telehubs are a less than satisfactory solution to transportation. P2P is the correct course. LL should choose P2P for the good of SL as a whole, as well as most players. But a problem LL and a few players created was to create a premium market for Telehub land. So LL doesn't want to upset "numba one customa" and maybe a few others, so they keep telehubs, at the expense of SL an almost every other customer. Bad decision on LL's part, as usual. If they feel loyalty to one customer who bet on Telehubs, even though that person had a lot of forewarning to divest in that land, they should have made the right decision for SL and the community, and given that favorite customer some extra land to keep that person happy.

But they didn't. Poor judgment. Totally predictable.

LL rarely misses a chance at shooting themselves in the foot.

Just like the economy. They could fix it quite easily, but that would entail a decision to stop screwing it up. At best they don't seem to know, at all, what they are doing. By removing land from the L$ economy, it is exactly as if they had dumped a huge volume of L$ into the SL economy. Most land transactions are probably outside of the L$ economy now. Removing half of the transactions from an economy overnight is like printing twice the money and handing it out overnight. That's a technique one country would do to another as an act of war - flood another country with perfect counterfeit money to destroy their economy. Maybe LL really don't understand how that works. If that is the case, then Philip and crew are not bright people. Either that, or they knew what they were doing to the SL economy but really didn't care. For how they treated GOM, and the SL community in many matters, suggests that "don't care about anyone" could also be the problem.


I agree totally that Linden Labs needs to increase functionality. Point to point teleport would be an improvement. I'm not sure what would convince them to change to it, but I don't think their motivation is profit off of other people's misfortune. Either way they stand a chance to loose profit. If they don't implement, they could slow growth in the long run. If they do implement, they could see a short exodus in the short run. They really do have tough decisions to make. They have already made some tough decisions, and the difficulty will continue as different individuals have different things that will make them happy.

What are you talking about removing land from the market though? Last I checked, we still were in the unlimited supply of land mode. The price of land in $US has stayed about the same. In order for this to happen at the current $L price, the price in $L has to increase. We have had problems with the amount of currency dumped into circulation, but where have you seen land removed? Even if a third party sells land outside of SL, it still part of the land market. It is the same way that GOM, IGE, SLExchange, etc. work on the same market.

Linden Labs was not cruel with GOM. The only thing GOM had to offer them was employees, experience, and an interface. The idea of an open market exchange that allows GOM to function is common knowledge. Linden Labs gave GOM an offer. Linden Labs put a different price on what GOM had to offer than what GOM put on it, so there was no trade. They didn't do anything malicious. They both made decisions they had every right to make. Linden Labs did not say we are forcing you to stop facilitating trading, and there is nothing you can do about it. They said we are going to facilitate trading too, and you can continue to do so as well if you still see profit in it. I see nothing malicious there. That is just the way things work on an open market in the real world. It isn't always pretty, but it certainly isn't malicious.
Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
09-18-2005 12:54
From: Boyfriend Bailly
As for Linden Labs, their profit mongering is out of control.

Profit mongering? What planet are you from?

How bout we call it avoid-bankruptcy-mongering.

A "profiteer" is somebody who immorally makes an excessive profit during a shortage. So you're one of those, are you?

Buster
Boyfriend Bailly
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 60
09-18-2005 16:37
From: Dark Korvin
if you think that people do not benefit each other from trading.

Who said anything about people do not benefit each other from trading? What are you talking about? I simply stated that the only way it would be releveant to each party in the trade that the other party benefited from the transaction, is if it would be profitable to them if the other party benefited. What are you getting at?


From: musicteacher Rampal

I'm trying to figure out if it will actually hurt others or not

How can having more options of where to teleport hurt anybody?

Why are people so worried about businesses being hurt?
Here is the question Second Life should be asking:
If we do not take into consideration anybody that would loose business if we switch to point to point, will the individual have better freedom/interface/gameplay?

POSTULATE: It is Solely up to the business to shape and mold itself according to Second Life’s growth. It is never up to Second Life to shape and mold its growth according to the business/industries.


That is the point of this thread. So that we understand that we need to allow SL to improve and grow freely without worrying about who and what business will lose money from SL improvements. I play SL as well for business, and never equate the best interest of my business to the best interest of Second Life. This is what I see happening to a lot of business players. They get so lost into thinking that business is the all important in SL, and that the best interest of businesses is the same thing as the best interest of the community. Sure business play good function. But the best interest of the businesses are BY FAR not the same thing as the best interest of Second Life.

Businesses are independent entities that play a function in Second Life.
The Second Life community/game must grow independently while the businesses adjust themselves to Second Life’s changes.
If a business does play a great function to the community, all good and fine.
As independent entities, the only one responsible for the business is the business. Therefore, it is not the community’s responsibility to ensure the business does not suffer or go out of business.


POINT TO POINT TP AS AN EXAMPLE:
If improvements can be made to Second Life, we must NOT allow the fact that businesses might suffer to stop us from implementing them.
Implementing point to point tp might hurt many businesses.
But it is by all means NOT “unfair” to current businesses that rely on the existence of hubs.
I as a business might lose a lot of money or go out of business for that matter because of point to point tp.
I would be TOTALLY deluding myself if I were to think this was “unfair” to me.

I would be the one that is being unfair if I were to expect SL to mold itself around me or the industry. I would be deluding myself if I thought it would be fair for SL to worry about whether my business would hurt. SL needs to be able to go freely without business interference. We as businesses need to allow them to, and adjust ourselves as they do.

When starting a business, we should know and understand this.
Changes that improve Second Life may well put us out of business.
Changes that improve Second Life are not equal to changes that are in the best interest of the businesses.
How much we play a function or how wonderful we think we are to the SL community is not relevant.
It IS NOT in the best interest of SL to “be good to the businesses”. (What I mean by “be good to the businesses” is thinking about the welfare of the businesses when making a decisions.)
It IS in the best interest of SL to continue to grow and improve freely without thought to the welfare of the businesses. Meanwhile, we as businesses need to allow SL to do so, and adjust ourselves accordingly.
We as businesses cannot and should not expect Linden Labs and the Second Life community at large to adjust so that our business does not suffer. We must allow Second Life to improve independently while we shape businesses accordingly.
We need to know that WE should be shaping ourselves around SL’s growth. Not the other way around.

Does point to point TP make things more convenient for the player? I cannot think of how it does not. We need to get past ourselves, and stop thinking about “how the businesses will suffer”. Let them suffer. Let the businesses adjust to the changes. By all means, allow SL to make good improvements. In the long run this is the single most important factor that will make for a better Second Life as a whole.
Smiley Sneerwell
Registered User
Join date: 6 Jun 2005
Posts: 210
09-18-2005 21:18
From: Dark Korvin
What are you talking about removing land from the market though? Last I checked, we still were in the unlimited supply of land mode. The price of land in $US has stayed about the same. In order for this to happen at the current $L price, the price in $L has to increase. We have had problems with the amount of currency dumped into circulation, but where have you seen land removed? Even if a third party sells land outside of SL, it still part of the land market. It is the same way that GOM, IGE, SLExchange, etc. work on the same market.

Linden Labs was not cruel with GOM. The only thing GOM had to offer them was employees, experience, and an interface. The idea of an open market exchange that allows GOM to function is common knowledge. Linden Labs gave GOM an offer...



When a commodity, in this case land, is not traded for a currency, L$ in this case, that commodity is no longer a part of the market of that currency. Products that are traded in US$ are a part of the US$ economy, not the L$ economy. It's almost like the land in SL no longer exists. To the SL economy, it does not exist.

Say you have an economy with five widgets, five m2 of land, and ten L$ of currency. Those ten items are going to even out to be worth those ten L$. If you double the supply of L$, now you have twenty L$ going after the same ten items, and eventually the price of those ten item is going to equal the twenty L$ available to spend for them.

Now if you take the land out of that, so you just have five widgets but you still have ten L$, those five widgets are going to become worth about ten L$ due to supply and demand. The widgets aren't really worth more because they represent all of the value. The L$ are worth less. That is what happened when LL and a few others took land out of the SL/L$ economy by not accepting L$ as a valid currency of trade of those items. A perfect way to create runaway inflation. It's like President Bush ere to just declare that all real estate transactions in the US will be traded in German Marks. A move like that would only make sense if the US$ was being given up on as it had no value.

Of course, by deficit spending with no intention of ever paying it back, Bush is setting up that scenario, but that's another discussion.


As for LL making a valid offer for GOM, from what I had read, LL offered GOM no cash, just stock. The problem with stock is that it is only valuable if there is a buyer for it. If you can't find a buyer for the stock, it's toilet paper. How much are a bunch of aging computers under questionable management worth to anyone but LL? Not much. Almost nothing.
Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
09-18-2005 21:38
I would like to suggest, in deadly seriousness, that there are reasons to retain telehubs, and restrict p2p teleporting, which are entirely different.

Reasons different from considerations of landvalues, or of the fairness or otherwise of altering them by telehub abolition.

These altogether different reasons relate to how our virtual world could be damaged if p2p teleporting became near universal, or very cheap. If it is to exist, it should be as a fairly expensive taxi service - out of reach of those reliant on stipends, except for the odd special occasion.

My logic, supporting my claims of such damage, has its own thread:

/130/d6/62069/1.html

and I would appreciate informed and intelligent comment, as if I am right about the likely outcome, it is a far more serious matter than any temporary unpleasantness over land values, or even the effective "de-zoning", both of which would pale into insignificance by comparison.
Dark Korvin
Player in the RL game
Join date: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 769
09-18-2005 21:58
From: Smiley Sneerwell
When a commodity, in this case land, is not traded for a currency, L$ in this case, that commodity is no longer a part of the market of that currency. Products that are traded in US$ are a part of the US$ economy, not the L$ economy. It's almost like the land in SL no longer exists. To the SL economy, it does not exist.

Say you have an economy with five widgets, five m2 of land, and ten L$ of currency. Those ten items are going to even out to be worth those ten L$. If you double the supply of L$, now you have twenty L$ going after the same ten items, and eventually the price of those ten item is going to equal the twenty L$ available to spend for them.

Now if you take the land out of that, so you just have five widgets but you still have ten L$, those five widgets are going to become worth about ten L$ due to supply and demand. The widgets aren't really worth more because they represent all of the value. The L$ are worth less. That is what happened when LL and a few others took land out of the SL/L$ economy by not accepting L$ as a valid currency of trade of those items. A perfect way to create runaway inflation. It's like President Bush ere to just declare that all real estate transactions in the US will be traded in German Marks. A move like that would only make sense if the US$ was being given up on as it had no value.

Of course, by deficit spending with no intention of ever paying it back, Bush is setting up that scenario, but that's another discussion.


As for LL making a valid offer for GOM, from what I had read, LL offered GOM no cash, just stock. The problem with stock is that it is only valuable if there is a buyer for it. If you can't find a buyer for the stock, it's toilet paper. How much are a bunch of aging computers under questionable management worth to anyone but LL? Not much. Almost nothing.


Linden Labs was giving away land for free when they sold land for $L. Those $L cost the resident, but they didn't supply Linden Labs with anything. They took away a sink, but they also have taken away a source in the rating bonus.

I agree that they need to be careful about taking away a sink when the $L is falling, but I can see why they would not be willing to sell land for free when people are willing to spend US$1000 a piece for land. Only they have the numbers about $L per person. Hopefully they will figure out what they are going to do to keep it balanced, but getting rid of one sink is not the end of the world as long as they make other changes.

As for the $L not seeing land, the $L still sees land. The end resident using the land still has to pay a certain amount of $L for the land. The reciever of that $L has to make US$1195 off of those $L to break even. They will not be fast to sell the $L for less than that. They may eventually do it, but the land sellers not destroying the $L is still not as bad as you make it out to be. It is not like the auction winners will have nothing but profit from the $L that they sell.
Smiley Sneerwell
Registered User
Join date: 6 Jun 2005
Posts: 210
09-18-2005 22:29
Ellie~

I've seen telehubs. I've read your beliefs about them. I don't agree. I base that on my experience here and in other VR worlds. Create a destination and people will go there. Telehubs are almost never a destination, which is why they are ghost towns. People explore because they want to do that, not because of telehubs.

I don't need yet another discussion about telehubs. Doing so isn't interesting anymore, it's tedious.
Janie Marlowe
Mischief Maker
Join date: 5 Apr 2005
Posts: 630
09-19-2005 01:28
eh, no profiteer, less new content, less happy individual players. no individual player, no ability to earn profit, no profiteers. see how that works? can't we all just get along?

and btw, i guess most people would consider me a profiteer, but i'm also an individual player who enjoys doing many of the things the world has to offer. so does that make me count twice as much, or by half? or do i not count at all because i'm not deeming any one person more or less important than the rest?

eh, i prefer not to count at all...i'm cool w/ that.
vampy Backbite
mild eye irritation
Join date: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 17
09-19-2005 01:54
From: Boyfriend Bailly
Postulates:
1. The best interest of the individual player is the most important thing in Second Life period.
2. The best interest of the business entity is not necessarily the best interest of the individual player.
3. The best interest of the business entity is usually not in the best interest of the individual player.


All business entities (profiteers) must understand that their whole cause is to make money. The only thing important to a profiteer is profit. Not the best interest of the individual. Nothing. Profit and only profit is in the best interest of the profiteer.

I myself am a profiteer in this game, and can understand this simple concept.
It appears that many profiteers that play SL delude themselves into thinking the best interest of their business in any way shape or form coincides with the best interest of Second Life. It does not. Never delude yourself into thinking so.

If a profiteer in believes in any way that their business is in any way relevant to the betterment of Second Life, they are SERIOUSLY deluding themselves. Again, all profiteers need to understand that your business is for your betterment/profit, and only for your profit.

The only thing that is really important to the Second Life is the individual player.

I never take profiteers seriously when they complain that such and such is causing them to lose business, and Linden Labs needs to do something about it. They may hate me for professing this, but in all honesty, it is completely irrelevant period whether or not profiteers loose money. Whether they go out of business or suffer because for whatever reason is, and should be totally irrelevant to Second Life.

Profiteers are in Second Life as part of the Second Life. But their businesses and profiteering is not the responsibility of Second Life. If they feel they can profit off of something, more power to them. If not, then do something else. It is in no way whatsoever anybody’s responsibility to ensure that profiteers in SL prosper. If they expect the community to support them, they do not understand who they are and what their place is.

Any feature that is beneficial to the individual is an improvement of Second Life. The effects of various business entities should never be taken into consideration when discussing the improvement of Second Life. Any improvement of Second Life as a whole should be 100% absolutely and utterly focused on the individual and only the individual.

Profiteers may come and go. Their profiteering is purely their privilege, and nobody’s responsibility.

Example:
I do not know about GOM’s feelings about Linden Labs implementing the currency exchange platform into Second Life. Second Life wants to implement currency exchange so that players can trade Lindens for Dollars within the game.
1. In doing so, Linden Labs will have usurped GOMs entire market (all of their customers).
2. GOM will go out of business because of this. (This is irrelevant.)

The relevant question is this: Will the individual benefit from such interface? I would say that the individual player of Second Life would totally benefit from having an interface within the game to exchange currencies with other players.


It is no doubt that Linden Labs saw the profit potential in currency exchange which they might not have foreseen had not GOM taken all the risks, and built up their business. Therefore, it is only natural that Linden Labs would want to cash in on it themselves.

The question is, does GOM have any right to this market? Does GOM deserve anything?
If anybody thinks so, they are seriously deluding themselves. If I were in GOMs shoes, I would most certainly be upset that I will lose my entire business that I built up. But I would never in my sane mind delude myself into thinking that this is unfair or that I deserve anything.

Remember: The only thing any profiteer deserves is whatever profit they are taking. Or “making” if you want to call it that. Nothing more. Nobody is responsible for compensating me for my loss because of new features that will benefit the individual. Such attitude is warped.

Regardless of the affect on profiteers, if it is a feature that will benefit the individual, it is an improvement to Second Life. By all means such feature should not be denied out of regard for any profiteer.

Anybody making profit from this game needs to stop looking at themselves as some sort of benefactor that deserves anything. Every one of us profit takers are beneficiaries of Second Life. We take profit as it comes, and if it does not come, we need to adjust. It is not unfair to us when we lose profit. Most importantly, by all means do not go as far as to deny what you know will benefit the individual, and therefore Second Life. All for the sake of your profit.

If you want to deny features that will hurt your business, know that you are doing so because it is in your best interest of profit to do so. Not because you are under some deluded impression that you deserve anything.

I cannot stress how important it is, when discussing improvements to Second Life, to put the individual before any business including Linden Labs itself.



Bullsh!t
Boyfriend Bailly
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 60
09-19-2005 05:32
No it's not. It's plain and simple fact.

From: Janie Marlowe
eh, no profiteer, less new content, less happy individual players. no individual player, no ability to earn profit, no profiteers. see how that works? can't we all just get along?

and btw, i guess most people would consider me a profiteer, but i'm also an individual player who enjoys doing many of the things the world has to offer. so does that make me count twice as much, or by half? or do i not count at all because i'm not deeming any one person more or less important than the rest?

eh, i prefer not to count at all...i'm cool w/ that.

I guess I didn't explain it clearly. You as a business entity are different from you as a player.
Businesses do play a function. Nobody ever deneid that. Sure as long as there is incentive for businesses to make new content, they will do so. It doesn't matter.

What is in the best interest of SL does not equal what is the best interest of the businesses. I've given many clear examples why this is so. And this is so regardless of whatever function businesses play in the community. Busineses are an independent aspect of the community. Businesses are not the community.
Dark Korvin
Player in the RL game
Join date: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 769
09-19-2005 16:24
From: Boyfriend Bailly
No it's not. It's plain and simple fact.


I guess I didn't explain it clearly. You as a business entity are different from you as a player.
Businesses do play a function. Nobody ever deneid that. Sure as long as there is incentive for businesses to make new content, they will do so. It doesn't matter.

What is in the best interest of SL does not equal what is the best interest of the businesses. I've given many clear examples why this is so. And this is so regardless of whatever function businesses play in the community. Busineses are an independent aspect of the community. Businesses are not the community.


Businesses may not be the community, but businesses are the customer. When people who come here to relax start paying 100's or thousands of dollars a month to Linden Labs, they will become the customer of Linden Labs. Linden Labs should be concerned with their customers who are the businesses.

People that come here to relax are the product. They are what Linden Labs offers to those that pay 100's and thousand of dollars of month. These people are customers to content creators and service providers. Content creators need to be concerned about what those who come here to relax want, because these are their customers.

The flow does not go from the entire community wants something, so Linden Labs is effected. The flow goes, the entire community wants something, so the businesses may want something to make their customers happy. These businesses are Linden Labs customers that Linden Labs wants to make happy. Everyones happiness is important, but the happiness of every individual is not immediately important to a company that is not marketing to them for any other reason than their customers will not have something worth paying for without them.
Adam Zaius
Deus
Join date: 9 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,483
09-19-2005 19:53
From: Boyfriend Bailly
No it's not. It's plain and simple fact.


I guess I didn't explain it clearly. You as a business entity are different from you as a player.
Businesses do play a function. Nobody ever deneid that. Sure as long as there is incentive for businesses to make new content, they will do so. It doesn't matter.

What is in the best interest of SL does not equal what is the best interest of the businesses. I've given many clear examples why this is so. And this is so regardless of whatever function businesses play in the community. Busineses are an independent aspect of the community. Businesses are not the community.


I for one, welcome our new socialist overlords!
(*cough*)
_____________________
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GigasSecondServer
Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
09-20-2005 07:15
From: vampy Backbite
Bullsh!t

Amazing! You used fewer words, but said pretty much the same thing as Boyfriend! We could all learn from your fine example.
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
09-20-2005 10:42
As far as I'm concerned, hubs are here to stay, Thank God.

Hubs help keep businesses away from residential areas, how does allowing malls, casinos, tringo etc move next door to the average user help said user? The slight benefit offered by reduced travel time would be destroyed by the extra lag found in homes. Zoning requires policing.

Hubs offer an area where people can meet others. I can TP to any hub and expect to see users coming and going. I have met several nice people near hubs. I love being able to go to town. I would hate having everything spread around in a big mix.

Hubs offer a sense of world, take them away and people will stop flying. It will be instant tp into the store or home making geography invisible.

As for "Profiteers".... I see none in SL. All businesses I see are respectible and honest. The idea one who creates profit is in some way taking from others is absurd. If the profit motive isn't there, the average user loses access to quality goods and services.

Some businesses operate soley to pay the tier to be able to offer the excellent cntent the users enjoy.

Finally, this is a classic "capitalism v. communism" discussion. Communists seem to think everything should be free to the poor. And that any one making a profit is some how evil.

Just my 2 cents
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