Second Life Forums Archive - p2ptp kill telehubs ?

Ellie Edo

Registered User

Join date: 13 Mar 2005

Posts: 1,425

09-18-2005 12:27

I am fearful of all this talk of p2ptp, and the death of telehubs, and I wish to make a dire prediction of what would result.

I hope I don't have to quote this post 12 months in the future when you have all had your way, and it is too late for you to undo what you regret you did..

The whole p2ptp thing is so difficult for me, because I am one of those rare freaks that believes there is something big to lose. I feel that the drag of flying over the last few sims to ones destination is a worthwhile price to pay to preserve the sense of geography and an "outside world".

SL is an extended geographic continent. It is not (yet) a set of 3-d webpages each floating isolated in cyberspace, connected by nothing but jump-links based on informational connections.

If once we have universal p2ptp I predict that geography will die, the "outside world" connecting us together will wither, architecture will degrade, and beauty will be lost. More and more, a build will have all the creator's effort put into its interior space, leaving the outside, which no visitor need ever see, as a featureless box.

This will not be universally so, of course, individuals will always kick against the trend and a few lovely outdoor spaces will remain, but overall, and on average, I predict that if the telehubs went, or p2ptp became cheap and universal, the resulting destruction would end as a cause of lasting regret.

So my plea is - leave things as they are. Or if you must, introduce p2ptp only as luxury transport for the rich, acting as a useful money sink, and costing at least L$40 per time. Enough so that those with no income but the stipend will only use it rarely in case of urgency. Like calling a taxi in RL.

So, to simplfy:

p2ptp > no more flying > no more viewing exteriors > no more architecture, no more neighborhood

Musicteacher Rampal

Registered User

Join date: 20 Feb 2004

Posts: 824

09-18-2005 12:39

What if they made it so that you couldn't p2ptp inside a set of prims....if there were some way to p2ptp only to the exterior of buildings. Would that make a difference? When people list the coordinates of their stores they have to list outside coordinates?

I understand what you're talking about though..there is one store on a private island where the island tp point is inside a building and there is no exit because the rest of the island is for private use. No idea what the outside looks like. I am only hoping that LL will consider p2ptp for a price before they consider cutting stipends to try to balance the economy. I can't say I'd use it all that much because I don't have much $L, but those with lots of $L would use it a lot therefore taking $L out of the system.

Seifert Surface

Mathematician

Join date: 14 Jun 2005

Posts: 912

09-18-2005 12:44

I have similar concerns.

As I'm sure it has been said before, there are two competing desires here:

Get where you want to go now

vs

Build a world rather than a series of 3d webpages

There has to be a balance. Free p2p teleporting is ideal for option one, and dire for option 2. Some recent ideas, businesses paying for telehub locations etc. seem like they could be a good solution.

_____________________

-Seifert Surface
2G!tGLf 2nLt9cG

Torley Linden

Enlightenment!

Join date: 15 Sep 2004

Posts: 16,530

09-18-2005 12:50

An achievement of diversity might be having a future collection of regions (like another continent) P2PTP, or even a few simulators running this as an experiment, but leave the "old" world like it is. Classic.

_____________________

Khamon Fate

fategardens.net

Join date: 21 Nov 2003

Posts: 4,177

09-18-2005 13:42

What if the only way for LL to continue growing is to let the geography come apart and be reconstituted by the players. If they blew the whole grid and allowed us the ability link sims as we saw fit would geographic continents not develop? Existing estate continents, web rings, email lists and RL cities indicate that they would.

We posted similar things when 1.2 was announced. It was the end of our world. It was. We have a larger, better world now. The release of estate sims was going to destroy the world as we knew it. It did. We have a larger, better world now. p2p is a logical, necessary step that will, as you say Ellie, alter the way we view and use land. It will allow us more control to build a larger, better world.

But it won't happen. LL have become afraid of such radical change. They're cowering with fear over the simple necessity of eliminating ratings bonuses. I think we'll not see the kind of useful revisions and empowerment of the residents that have propelled SL forward in the past. It's too bad. I wonder what happened?

_____________________

Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net

Ellie Edo

Registered User

Join date: 13 Mar 2005

Posts: 1,425

09-18-2005 14:37

From: Khamon Fate

What if the only way for LL to continue growing is to let the geography come apart and be reconstituted by the players. If they blew the whole grid and allowed us the ability link sims as we saw fit would geographic continents not develop? Existing estate continents, web rings, email lists and RL cities indicate that they would.

Hmmmm....
Interesting, Khamon.
In the longer term you might be right. But I think its too soon yet.

Also, I believe that a change as big as you propose should be introduced in an evolutionary bit-by-bit manner. Release of the server code would result in user-hosted locations springing up alongside the SL grid, linking to it, and evolving and growing in their own way in parallel.

Wholesale dismantling or revolution in the main grid at the outset would be very dangerous. Eventually the main grid could be broken into sections, and sold off to private individuals for private hosting, but it should be done only when the principle of private hosting had already been pioneered and established, and would be subject to the rights and wishes of existing residents.

With regard to telehubs and ptptp in such a free new world, I am not sure that all owners would make p2p freely available within their little grid (say 4 or 9 sims ?). Many might still choose a single, or just a few, chosen central arrival pointts, forcing an exploration of the exterior world as a way of experiencing what they offer.

So I don't take it as a given that privatisation of the grid would imply universal p2ptp, with SL dragging their feet on this inevitable development. Rather I see what we have as a series of interconnected little sub-grids, each with its central arrival point, forcing us to travel through its geography, and see and appreciate its "external appearance" in addition to the interior of whatever box we may wish to enter.

Not so hugely different from the end result of your grid explosion, but with the bits sewn together round the edge.

Ellie Edo

Registered User

Join date: 13 Mar 2005

Posts: 1,425

09-18-2005 14:43

From: Torley Torgeson

An achievement of diversity might be having a future collection of regions (like another continent) P2PTP, or even a few simulators running this as an experiment, but leave the "old" world like it is. Classic.

Absolutely agree, Torley. A localised trial, not universal enforcement. Give choice. See if the fears of a degrading exterior world are realised, or are fantasy.

Dark Korvin

Player in the RL game

Join date: 13 Jun 2005

Posts: 769

09-18-2005 16:15

From: Ellie Edo

I am fearful of all this talk of p2ptp, and the death of telehubs, and I wish to make a dire prediction of what would result.

I hope I don't have to quote this post 12 months in the future when you have all had your way, and it is too late for you to undo what you regret you did..

The whole p2ptp thing is so difficult for me, because I am one of those rare freaks that believes there is something big to lose. I feel that the drag of flying over the last few sims to ones destination is a worthwhile price to pay to preserve the sense of geography and an "outside world".

SL is an extended geographic continent. It is not (yet) a set of 3-d webpages each floating isolated in cyberspace, connected by nothing but jump-links based on informational connections.

If once we have universal p2ptp I predict that geography will die, the "outside world" connecting us together will wither, architecture will degrade, and beauty will be lost. More and more, a build will have all the creator's effort put into its interior space, leaving the outside, which no visitor need ever see, as a featureless box.

This will not be universally so, of course, individuals will always kick against the trend and a few lovely outdoor spaces will remain, but overall, and on average, I predict that if the telehubs went, or p2ptp became cheap and universal, the resulting destruction would end as a cause of lasting regret.

So my plea is - leave things as they are. Or if you must, introduce p2ptp only as luxury transport for the rich, acting as a useful money sink, and costing at least L$40 per time. Enough so that those with no income but the stipend will only use it rarely in case of urgency. Like calling a taxi in RL.

So, to simplfy:

p2ptp > no more flying > no more viewing exteriors > no more architecture, no more neighborhood

I don't think point to point teleporting would get rid of flying and exteriors. It still would be easier to walk or fly next door instead of waiting for all your attachments to save then reload.

In another sense, point to point teleporting might make architecture more important. Right now, the best store you can make is one that has a huge holes on the side and a huge hole in the ceiling to make it easy for lagging customers to find their way inside. Some have even gone to the extremes of eliminating entire walls and the ceiling altogether. If you could get your customers to just pop inside your store, you would have more reason to make a whole building, doors, walls and all.

Not to mention that alot of areas trying to attract attention intentionally build outside of other popular places. A person inside could get the urge to roam just as easy as a person outside. If you want catch their attention when they do roam outside, you will still have to build a nice looking exterior.

Boyfriend Bailly

Registered User

Join date: 13 Sep 2005

Posts: 60

09-18-2005 16:53

From: Ellie Edo

Or if you must, introduce p2ptp only as luxury transport for the rich

This is totally screwed and unfair. Everybody should benefit from p2ptp.
Do you really believe months down the line, people would want hubs back because they would be unhappy that they can tp anywhere instead of specific places?

As long as each sim is connected to eachother, the world remains. The fact that people can tp anywhere is more isolation and less community. Whether hubs or p2p, the community will be isolated to a certain degree either way.

Ellie Edo

Registered User

Join date: 13 Mar 2005

Posts: 1,425

09-18-2005 17:00

From: Dark Korvin

A person inside could get the urge to roam just as easy as a person outside.

But it is in a shop owners interest to suppress this urge. Easy. No doors
or windows. Enough people do it ? Result - outside no longer worth visiting.

From: Dark Korvin

It still would be easier to walk or fly next door

But how would you know you wanted to ? Wouldn't you more likely just be tp'ing out to your next preplanned destination in another doorless windowless box ? Surely you must admit there is a danger ?

No incentive whatever for a commercial organisation to maintain a nice exterior. Just a waste of valuable prims. Passing trade would have almost died overnight. Residences, maybe, but not for commerce. Tp in, tp out - that's the ticket !

We would quickly see the development of shopping and other searchable directories to help you customize and execute an efficient tour by tp of all the best locations for your purpose.

You always arrive bang straight in your friend's living room. Directly onto the dance floor in a club. Why ever go flying or walking at all ?

Sim names would quickly become irrelevant. Who cares what's near what ? Just need numeric co-ordinates, nothing more.

I suspect that the commercial boxes would soon even butt right up against each other, joining to form one monolithic ground-covering featureless mass. Why bother with anything other? Total environmental destruction. Ellie has spoken. You have all been warned

Thanks though, Dark, seriously. Interesting points.

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p2ptp kill telehubs ? - A Dire Prediction

p2ptp kill telehubs ? - A Dire Prediction
Ellie Edo Registered User Join date: 13 Mar 2005 Posts: 1,425	09-18-2005 12:27 I am fearful of all this talk of p2ptp, and the death of telehubs, and I wish to make a dire prediction of what would result. I hope I don't have to quote this post 12 months in the future when you have all had your way, and it is too late for you to undo what you regret you did.. The whole p2ptp thing is so difficult for me, because I am one of those rare freaks that believes there is something big to lose. I feel that the drag of flying over the last few sims to ones destination is a worthwhile price to pay to preserve the sense of geography and an "outside world". SL is an extended geographic continent. It is not (yet) a set of 3-d webpages each floating isolated in cyberspace, connected by nothing but jump-links based on informational connections. If once we have universal p2ptp I predict that geography will die, the "outside world" connecting us together will wither, architecture will degrade, and beauty will be lost. More and more, a build will have all the creator's effort put into its interior space, leaving the outside, which no visitor need ever see, as a featureless box. This will not be universally so, of course, individuals will always kick against the trend and a few lovely outdoor spaces will remain, but overall, and on average, I predict that if the telehubs went, or p2ptp became cheap and universal, the resulting destruction would end as a cause of lasting regret. So my plea is - leave things as they are. Or if you must, introduce p2ptp only as luxury transport for the rich, acting as a useful money sink, and costing at least L$40 per time. Enough so that those with no income but the stipend will only use it rarely in case of urgency. Like calling a taxi in RL. So, to simplfy: *p2ptp > no more flying > no more viewing exteriors > no more architecture, no more neighborhood*
Musicteacher Rampal Registered User Join date: 20 Feb 2004 Posts: 824	09-18-2005 12:39 What if they made it so that you couldn't p2ptp inside a set of prims....if there were some way to p2ptp only to the exterior of buildings. Would that make a difference? When people list the coordinates of their stores they have to list outside coordinates? I understand what you're talking about though..there is one store on a private island where the island tp point is inside a building and there is no exit because the rest of the island is for private use. No idea what the outside looks like. I am only hoping that LL will consider p2ptp for a price before they consider cutting stipends to try to balance the economy. I can't say I'd use it all that much because I don't have much $L, but those with lots of $L would use it a lot therefore taking $L out of the system.
Seifert Surface Mathematician Join date: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 912	09-18-2005 12:44 I have similar concerns. As I'm sure it has been said before, there are two competing desires here: Get where you want to go now vs Build a world rather than a series of 3d webpages There has to be a balance. Free p2p teleporting is ideal for option one, and dire for option 2. Some recent ideas, businesses paying for telehub locations etc. seem like they could be a good solution. _____________________ -Seifert Surface 2G!tGLf 2nLt9cG
Torley Linden Enlightenment! Join date: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 16,530	09-18-2005 12:50 An achievement of diversity might be having a future collection of regions (like another continent) P2PTP, or even a few simulators running this as an experiment, but leave the "old" world like it is. Classic. _____________________
Khamon Fate fategardens.net Join date: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 4,177	09-18-2005 13:42 What if the only way for LL to continue growing is to let the geography come apart and be reconstituted by the players. If they blew the whole grid and allowed us the ability link sims as we saw fit would geographic continents not develop? Existing estate continents, web rings, email lists and RL cities indicate that they would. We posted similar things when 1.2 was announced. It was the end of our world. It was. We have a larger, better world now. The release of estate sims was going to destroy the world as we knew it. It did. We have a larger, better world now. p2p is a logical, necessary step that will, as you say Ellie, alter the way we view and use land. It will allow us more control to build a larger, better world. But it won't happen. LL have become afraid of such radical change. They're cowering with fear over the simple necessity of eliminating ratings bonuses. I think we'll not see the kind of useful revisions and empowerment of the residents that have propelled SL forward in the past. It's too bad. I wonder what happened? _____________________ Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net
Ellie Edo Registered User Join date: 13 Mar 2005 Posts: 1,425	09-18-2005 14:37 From: Khamon Fate What if the only way for LL to continue growing is to let the geography come apart and be reconstituted by the players. If they blew the whole grid and allowed us the ability link sims as we saw fit would geographic continents not develop? Existing estate continents, web rings, email lists and RL cities indicate that they would. Hmmmm.... Interesting, Khamon. In the longer term you might be right. But I think its too soon yet. Also, I believe that a change as big as you propose should be introduced in an evolutionary bit-by-bit manner. Release of the server code would result in user-hosted locations springing up alongside the SL grid, linking to it, and evolving and growing in their own way in parallel. Wholesale dismantling or revolution in the main grid at the outset would be very dangerous. Eventually the main grid could be broken into sections, and sold off to private individuals for private hosting, but it should be done only when the principle of private hosting had already been pioneered and established, and would be subject to the rights and wishes of existing residents. With regard to telehubs and ptptp in such a free new world, I am not sure that all owners would make p2p freely available within their little grid (say 4 or 9 sims ?). Many might still choose a single, or just a few, chosen central arrival pointts, forcing an exploration of the exterior world as a way of experiencing what they offer. So I don't take it as a given that privatisation of the grid would imply universal p2ptp, with SL dragging their feet on this inevitable development. Rather I see what we have as a series of interconnected little sub-grids, each with its central arrival point, forcing us to travel through its geography, and see and appreciate its "external appearance" in addition to the interior of whatever box we may wish to enter. Not so hugely different from the end result of your grid explosion, but with the bits sewn together round the edge.
Ellie Edo Registered User Join date: 13 Mar 2005 Posts: 1,425	09-18-2005 14:43 From: Torley Torgeson An achievement of diversity might be having a future collection of regions (like another continent) P2PTP, or even a few simulators running this as an experiment, but leave the "old" world like it is. Classic. Absolutely agree, Torley. A localised trial, not universal enforcement. Give choice. See if the fears of a degrading exterior world are realised, or are fantasy.
Dark Korvin Player in the RL game Join date: 13 Jun 2005 Posts: 769	09-18-2005 16:15 From: Ellie Edo I am fearful of all this talk of p2ptp, and the death of telehubs, and I wish to make a dire prediction of what would result. I hope I don't have to quote this post 12 months in the future when you have all had your way, and it is too late for you to undo what you regret you did.. The whole p2ptp thing is so difficult for me, because I am one of those rare freaks that believes there is something big to lose. I feel that the drag of flying over the last few sims to ones destination is a worthwhile price to pay to preserve the sense of geography and an "outside world". SL is an extended geographic continent. It is not (yet) a set of 3-d webpages each floating isolated in cyberspace, connected by nothing but jump-links based on informational connections. If once we have universal p2ptp I predict that geography will die, the "outside world" connecting us together will wither, architecture will degrade, and beauty will be lost. More and more, a build will have all the creator's effort put into its interior space, leaving the outside, which no visitor need ever see, as a featureless box. This will not be universally so, of course, individuals will always kick against the trend and a few lovely outdoor spaces will remain, but overall, and on average, I predict that if the telehubs went, or p2ptp became cheap and universal, the resulting destruction would end as a cause of lasting regret. So my plea is - leave things as they are. Or if you must, introduce p2ptp only as luxury transport for the rich, acting as a useful money sink, and costing at least L$40 per time. Enough so that those with no income but the stipend will only use it rarely in case of urgency. Like calling a taxi in RL. So, to simplfy: *p2ptp > no more flying > no more viewing exteriors > no more architecture, no more neighborhood* I don't think point to point teleporting would get rid of flying and exteriors. It still would be easier to walk or fly next door instead of waiting for all your attachments to save then reload. In another sense, point to point teleporting might make architecture more important. Right now, the best store you can make is one that has a huge holes on the side and a huge hole in the ceiling to make it easy for lagging customers to find their way inside. Some have even gone to the extremes of eliminating entire walls and the ceiling altogether. If you could get your customers to just pop inside your store, you would have more reason to make a whole building, doors, walls and all. Not to mention that alot of areas trying to attract attention intentionally build outside of other popular places. A person inside could get the urge to roam just as easy as a person outside. If you want catch their attention when they do roam outside, you will still have to build a nice looking exterior.
Boyfriend Bailly Registered User Join date: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 60	09-18-2005 16:53 From: Ellie Edo Or if you must, introduce p2ptp only as luxury transport for the rich This is totally screwed and unfair. Everybody should benefit from p2ptp. Do you really believe months down the line, people would want hubs back because they would be unhappy that they can tp anywhere instead of specific places? As long as each sim is connected to eachother, the world remains. The fact that people can tp anywhere is more isolation and less community. Whether hubs or p2p, the community will be isolated to a certain degree either way.
Ellie Edo Registered User Join date: 13 Mar 2005 Posts: 1,425	09-18-2005 17:00 From: Dark Korvin A person inside could get the urge to roam just as easy as a person outside. But it is in a shop owners interest to suppress this urge. Easy. No doors or windows. Enough people do it ? Result - outside no longer worth visiting. From: Dark Korvin It still would be easier to walk or fly next door But how would you know you wanted to ? Wouldn't you more likely just be tp'ing out to your next preplanned destination in another doorless windowless box ? Surely you must admit there is a danger ? No incentive whatever for a commercial organisation to maintain a nice exterior. Just a waste of valuable prims. Passing trade would have almost died overnight. Residences, maybe, but not for commerce. Tp in, tp out - that's the ticket ! We would quickly see the development of shopping and other searchable directories to help you customize and execute an efficient tour by tp of all the best locations for your purpose. You always arrive bang straight in your friend's living room. Directly onto the dance floor in a club. Why ever go flying or walking at all ? Sim names would quickly become irrelevant. Who cares what's near what ? Just need numeric co-ordinates, nothing more. I suspect that the commercial boxes would soon even butt right up against each other, joining to form one monolithic ground-covering featureless mass. Why bother with anything other? Total environmental destruction. Ellie has spoken. You have all been warned Thanks though, Dark, seriously. Interesting points.