Vasudha Linden - "the economy does not need stipends to sustain it.”

You're entitled to disagree with me. And in some way I'd even agree with you. It's just that nature of an economy in an online game is very different to real life.

I'll tell you the problem with the economy that doesn't need any expert to solve or discover. It's the fact that most people don't have and can't make enough money to do all they want. Those that do have the money make the decisions for everyone else as far as land value, exchange rate etc - and the rest of us have no choice.

People who cheat - either through stipend/referral farmily, or overriding timeout and using camping chairs - are those who have all the money, and those who play by the rules lose out for being honest.

I'd rather have less people and more active players online to be honest. Give people the opportunity to earn money rather than just being vegetables, and it's far more rewarding.

Other games have ways of making money, only SL is the one I know of where you can make money for doing nothing - which is a practice that would I would vote in as a ToS violation if I ever joined LL.

Lewis

Blakar I see what you're saying, but part of me thinks there must be more to it than that. And I should correct myself: I should say, it's about how much stipends add to money supply on the lindex, which may be different percentage than how much it adds to total money supply in the economy.

Try as we may, the just ... don't .... get ... it.



So far so good.



Assumptions all.

Not to mention that the big scary 2 million Lindens at 300... was because AnsheChung.com needed US$ in a hurry.

Regardless if its Anshe or SexySquirrel, the point still remains.
Linden Dollars are being unloaded on LindenX because after all
these years of pumping Stipends into the economy, a critical mass
has been reached and the house of cards is crumbling..



What can be done to resolve this economic colapse of SL?


a) Fix the Money Supply at a Specific Level (ie: L$500,000,000)
b) Back Linden Dollars w/Gold 100/troy oz = L$500,000,000 = US$566,700 (L$1000 = US$1.13)
c) Create Linden Dollar Denominated Investments



If LL follows these 3 rules, I assure you, the L$ will rise...

Your Comment Make absolutely no sense at all. Why should the whole of the game have to buy currency if they want to have money to do anything? People are basic quite often because they cant afford 10 usd a month on top of their internet costs etc. And really there is no reason to use the term self-righteous freeloaders as many people dont have inherint skills. So what you basically alienate a huge number of people in SL to make a few people who are greedy money. There is no reasoning behind what you state at all from what i read. The fact of the matter is Vasudha's own statement contradicts itself from a certain standpoint. The fact of the matter that the exchange of L is so high is influenced in part by the stipends. The fact of the matter is just because people opt not to work does not make them freeloaders. Alot do not have skills and such to just do whatever. There are few things out there a non skilled person can do and those that are lower skilled jobs in some peoples eyes such as escorting or dancing require a great deal of work to keep urself fresh and popular. There are just to many issues at had to say the economy does not need stipends to sustain it. On the surface for people that are hugely popular already it really has no meaning at all. But for those taht arnt popular it has a huge impact on about a huge percentage of the Population. Only thing that benefits from getting rid of the stipend is people that have large quanaties of money to sell. Eventually u hit deflation and price of L soars and it will eventually get out of hand to the other extreme. So its either a call of have a slightly unstable economical structure or create an economic structure that basically crumbles completely to absurd levels over time!!!

The fact is Lindens are not real money. Have you ever actually seen a Linden dollar in physical form? They don't exist physically as far as I know. They aren't minted based on the value of gold bars like real currency is.

I think it is rather amusing that we are all arguing over something that none of us can see, feel, taste, or touch and most likely never will...except of course those who manage to have these imaginary Linden dollars converted to real cash in thier real bank accounts and not just credits on a computer screen and withdraw said cash and actually spend it in the real world.



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Don't shoot me. I'm only the piano player. lol

"Money: term that actually refers to two concepts: the abstract unit of account in terms of which the value of goods, services, and obligations can be compared; and anything that is widely established as a means of payment. Frequently the standard of value also serves as a medium of exchange, but that is not always the case." - from the Columbia Encyclopedia.

I'm curious. If this hypothetical person can't afford any more over thier internet connection costs, aren't they induldging in a luxury that can't afford by participating in any online entertainment? "All things for free" sounds fabulous at first, but after a very breif period of time, no one wants to make anything anymore. Than it's all free because it's all gone.

I think Atlas Shrugged is a book that should be on this hypothetical person's reading list.

ok...

Lindens are only widely established as far as SL goes. It's not widely established in the real world as a form of payment for tangibles. You can't use them at your local grocery store for food and you can't take them to the bank and have them converted as you can with international currency. They are restricted to SL, Lindex, IGE and E-bay. If there are other exchange places (other than what would be considered black market of course) I am not aware of them.


Lindens are not money as we know it in the real world.

Edit: Just as a precaution... I do not know of any black markets for Ls. I meant that I was not including any black markets in my statement if any do in fact exist.


Oh and btw... every time I have talked with a LL employee about Ls and have referred them as dollars they kept telling me not to refer to them as such. Maybe they were saying that for clarity, then again maybe not. Each thime this has happened I got the distinct impression they didn't want them reffered to as such because they are not real money. Go figure. lol

Just an odd-ball fact -- I don't believe the USD hasn't been linked to gold since at least 1975.

And I believe it stopped being backed by gold as far back as 1862/63

Those numbers are pulled from http://wikipedia.org

They caution this because even by saying it is money as such, they would be forced to be financially responsible if something should happen to the game. Even by their own admission the L itself is valueless, so it cannot really be compared as money... Gotta love legalese.

That's true. And they stopped making pure silver coins too. Even pennies are no longer all copper.

I guess we are all spending imaginary money on our bills each month. LOL


But you get my point and that is the important thing.

That is what I was trying to get them to see without slapping them in the face with it.

Correct. It's now linked to the stock market.. which is stupid, of course, but hey, I have a hard time balancing my checkbook, let alone the rest of the economics

It it not even legalese as there is little applicable law and this concept of game-scrip is too new for the courts to have seen much of it.

The Terms of Service contract is hopeful verbiage, as in, we hope you won't try to stick us for any valuation of it and if you do, our first response to court will be to point at the ToS and say "see? they agreed" when the point of the matter is that no one really knows. You can sign all kinds of waivers of liability but when push comes to shove, a waiver isn't always sufficient. Fortunately for LL, their disclaimer and the high costs of pursuit for "material" loss in-game is probably sufficient deterrent for anyone to actually try this in courts.

Note that LL is joined by the rest of the software industry that says "we have no responsibility at all". In the rare occasions when this disclaimer has been put to the test, the courts were generally pretty equivocal.

Sorry Selene, you don't get to add your own modifiers to the definition just so it doesn't disprove your argument. The definition says nothing about where it has to be widely established and makes no distinctions about what kind of world it must be.
And virtual world or not, SL exists as an entity in the real world.

Let me ask you a question. Do you consider anything/everything that happens online as part of the real world or is it strictly limited to online and therefore not real? I think you know what I'm trying to ask. I'm sure you've heard the saying "it's VR not RL get over it" or something to that effect.

I've heard quite a few folks use "it's VR not RL get over it" in an attempt to excuse thier crappy behavior.

Human interaction is human interaction, the medium isn't relevant.

I'll answer that like this. I think the people behind the avis are very real, and L$ can be exchanged for very real US$.
Either way, it doesn't alter the definition of money.
I also think the line between virtual reality and what we consider RL will become increasingly blurred. Some day, the saying "it's VR not RL get over it" will no longer be valid.

ok We agree on that for the most part. I just have a different view of what constitutes money and what doesn't. For example, barter. To me barter is not the exchange of goods etc for money. By definition it is "To trade goods or services without the exchange of money." or "the art or practice of carrying on trade or exchange by or as if by bartering : exchange of one commodity or service for another ". Yet, by the definition you posted barter is money even though barter is specifically defined as not an exchange involving money.

When you buy something in world you are not exchanging actual money for goods or services. It is only when you buy/sell Ls or pay your monthly premium fee (to obtain that 500L stipend) that you are using money. So when you make an exchange in world for goods, services, etc. are you using a system that could be considered a barter system or not?

So... LL needs to decide once and for all whether or not Ls constitute real money. If they decide Ls do constitute real money then there are people who are going to owe income taxes on the money they have made off of SL and possibly sales tax as well for those states that have it (about 5 states do not have sales tax). And LL could also be held libel for the same, but, I am not sure about that.

I hope what I have said here conveys my thoughts well enough for you to understand and possibly see what it is I see. Like most people I find it a bit difficult to convey coherently when I am tired and my eyes are burning.

Oh Selene I don't mean to disagree, but in this case, I can tell you that the tax department in my country sees it very differently. Barter is very much taxable income here.

ok That does explain the difference. I did overlook the fact that you are down under. I'm going to have to see if I can find some info on whether or not barter is taxable in the US. Last I knew it wasn't or at least no one ever I know has ever bothered to report it. This kind of thing really hits home just how hard it is to figure out what is what with so many different countries and thier laws involved. Sheesh! What a can of worms!

Yes it is rather isn't it! One day, this will all be defined by law, and it's going to be a messy process. We could even see SL or a successor having to tailor-make it for different countries, to comply with their laws.

Heh, for some reason it amuses me when people don't bother to fire up a quick internet search before posting info.

Bartering is taxable is the US. Simply search google for "barter" and "taxable" and it'll provide plenty of links. Just as **TIPS** are taxable, many people do not report them. This is against the law and should a grumpy IRS agent catch you on a particularly bad day, audits you and catches that you have significant unreported tips, they will attempt to hit you with a rather large fine (and perhaps jail time.) Most usually are in a permenant state of grumpy'ness and settle for just requiring you to report an adjusted tax filing, with it's appropriate fees.