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Cocoanut Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
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03-23-2006 12:44
My idea is to explore and create, with the community's feedback, more money-making opportunities for residents without a very steep learning curve. (Volunteering is always welcome, of course! Unfortunately, that's not most people's calling!) Thank you! Thank you so much for considering this need! I noticed and talked about it when I first got on SL, a year ago. I look forward to reading this thread later, when I have more time. coco _____________________
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Shoshana Epsilon
... better than chocolate
Join date: 17 Dec 2005
Posts: 85
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03-23-2006 13:12
Hello! I would like to start a discussion on how we can increase job opportunities in SL. Please share your ideas with me. Thanks! I think the discussion is somewhat off topic from Vasudha's original question. How can we increase job opportunities in SL? A better "classified" system would help. (Where you can put "help wanted" and "opportunity available" information.) This should be something with some general categories and real search capabilities. If you look in the yellow pages, you can get some ideas of what to put in there. Service jobs are typically the least well paid, but easiest to perform/learn activities. Here are some that I have thought of: landscaping, land modification, interior decorating, build houses and apartments, be tour guide (a travel agency?), a clothing fitter, av adjuster, companion (just wander around with you so you're not lonely). Of course, there are the ones I hear about all the time: dancer, escort, bouncer, dj, wedding planner, builder, scripter, graphics designer, clothing designer, etc. Good luck with this concept, Vasudha. |
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Darwin Tiger
Registered User
Join date: 5 Dec 2005
Posts: 8
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Jobs, Lindex, Stipend
03-23-2006 13:16
Hello,
For several weeks the discussion here has explored various ways to stem $L inflation on the Lindex and the possible effects of reducing or removing the resident stipend. In-world job creation, not intended as a substitute for RL work, may be an answer. Tip jars, dance pads and camping chairs all illustrate people in SL are looking for ways to earn money. Education, as Desmond described, combined with a voluntary professional directory would provide resources for peeps looking to learn skills and those who wish to employ them. Land barons would use the guide to hire talent, paying in $L, reducing the amount of excess supply on the exchange and giving nubies a way to earn valuable skills and money without the stipend. Darwin Tiger |
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Static Sprocket
Registered User
Join date: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 157
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03-23-2006 13:16
It is almost impossible to employee people right now due to group limitations and permissions issues. I think many vendors would employee sales people, but the current limitations make that impossible. I'd be interested in you elaborating on this more (perhaps this would do better in another thread, Vasudha just say the word and I'll repost.) What inparticular do you think is limiting the employment of sales people? I've seen scripted objects (or I could make my own) that: * can track to see if an employee is on site in your store. * could log the employee's public chat, for review to see if they're actually "selling" your items * track what, if any, customers were in the store -- and would allow for commissions to sales people on duty * allowed employees to rez sales kiosks, which when the kiosk was paid by a customer, the kiosk would then submit payment to the orignal owner of the store and a network server deliver's the purchased product to the customer. This could then track whose sale's kiosk performed the sale, and could used to evaluate employees or provide commissions. Are the limitations in employing sale's people -- more of an issue that a lot of talented creators are not script savy, and don't know that these options are available? Or am I missing something? |
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Pix Paz
Away with the Pixies
Join date: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 129
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03-23-2006 13:30
In the immediate future, most people would not be able to make a RL wage from an SL job.
Money in SL therefore - $Linden or $US - is mainly a tool to buy things you want in SL but like Pratyeka says once you have everything you want it just adds up in your account causing other problems... For most "working" people the $linden is more than you need in SL but less than would be truly useful in RL. So it becomes less of a driver after time. For people who are not natural builders, I think this means that a successful and continually compeling "reward" for a "job" in SL (at least at the moment) needs to be not just monetary. In many other games this is forfilled by a prestige component. The prestige of being a fifty seven level baker or having one of the only Toilet Brushes of Argigflop in existence or having a +23 stat in Flatulence which gives you a special ability! As Argent mentioned, the reputation system, based on being known and respected, seems the only form of this in SL (or maybe was before being nerfed i gather because of some sort of abuse). Before SL gets to a stage where it can pay for RL needs on a weekly basis - some kind of prestige hook is likely to be required to interest people in roleplaying "working" a SL job for their leisure and pleasure. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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03-23-2006 13:34
To get your stripend you have work down the mine for 2 hours a week! |
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kerunix Flan
Registered User
Join date: 3 Sep 2005
Posts: 393
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03-23-2006 13:39
I'm the kind of person that want to *hire*
There is no tool at all to find someone. I needed an architect for my classical music backyard. i put a 50L$ classified "Need an architect". Got 3 newbie : 2 of them was unskilled. The 3rd one got a good idea but was an unskilled builder. I took the idea and rebuilt what he made. It took me 5 day to get my simple backyard done.  Now i ask my friend list and my group. there is always someone that know someone with a neighbour that have a partner that know someone with a nice custom house made by a friend of a friend ... A tool with a list of ppl for hire, by category, with a rating system (with a protection that make it hard to be abused) could be a good idea. A rating with peer review, and additionally special group of volonteer chosen randomly. A notation system like artistic skating (remove the best note and the badest note, and get the median of the other note) Or... In "Face of Mankind" there is player created mission, the group get a reward if the mission have a nice note. Any player can choose to review a mission, read the mission order, check the action taken, what's happened, etc and give a note. So it's totally independent. (If i remember correctly, name are hidden) |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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03-23-2006 13:41
OK, see, my theory is this:
When I'm not logged in, my character is down in the prim mine hewing raw prims from the primface. These prims are shipped up through the pipe to emerge at the primhead between the continents. Basic accounts get the nasty jobs, like hauling bits and working on the bit-rendering vats, while premiums get the better paying jobs like actual prim extraction. Oh, what, that's not the employment opportunities you're talking about? |
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Lora Morgan
Puts the "eek" in "geek"
Join date: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 779
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03-23-2006 13:45
As Eboni mentioned, additions/overhauls to the permissions and group systems are needed. This could allow the content creators and business owners to free up some of the more tedius aspects to unskilled/unmotivated folks.
As an example, with what I understand the upcoming group options to be, you can make a name for yourself as a Terraformer, working for land barons and land owners. They can invite you to their land group with terraform rights only, and you can't sell the land or maybe not even build on it. Clothing designers could hire people to package clothing, include "Thank you" notecards, update prices, take photos, etc. But as it stands now, they'd likely have to give their employees full mod rights to everything, opening their products up to theft. Inventory permissions need an overhaul for this to work. Already mentioned, product resellers could be huge with better permissions. There are already people paying others to update infohub ads, which is a good step for employment opportunites. |
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eltee Statosky
Luskie
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,258
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03-23-2006 13:51
I would second some form of 'approved' and managed resale... As a fairly large content producer in SL, and one'f the older and crankier residents, what i've really seen currently is there are three large 'classes' to the sl work economy...
'producers' aka people who make the cool stuff... It takes skill, time, blood, sweat, tears, etc, and its pretty intimidating to new players... 'servicers' aka people who do things for other people, act as brokers, middlemen, mall owners, land barons, etc... basically, they generally foot some investment, and leverage it over time to earn out a living... It can be pretty prohibitive to new players though as until you are familiar with how the system works, trying to skim a living off the top of it, is a pretty risky propisition.. 'disruptors' aka people who exploit flaws in the system, or mistakes people make, to scam/cheat/extort cash from those who 'have it to loose'... the virtual equivalent of 'squeegee men'... They will buy 16sqm of land, mark it up 100x, set out big ugly signs, and set it for sale *to* the person who has land next door, and just wait... they will resell goods given away with full perms, for crazy prices.. .etc etc.. Unfortunately the latter class is the most 'approachable' for new players, and has resulted in wave after wave of people trying their hand at crooked casinos, land extortion, etc etc... Ideally you want more people in the first category, but its kinda silly to try and 'force' someone to be creative, so there isn much that LL can do there... That leaves the middle category, service type jobs, as what would probably be the prime target.. Currently theres very little in game 'support' for those roles... either you foot up and buy a sim and try an make money with it somehow, or you just make do with yer L$500 a week. I think the idea of 'sanctioning' and providing tools for things like 'franchise' goods/stores or better land granularity/permission will go a long way to allowing people to work *for* other people, as a service, and not just for themselves... I think thats probably a good direction to target. _____________________
wash, rinse, repeat
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Blakar Ogre
Registered User
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 209
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03-23-2006 14:03
Obviously the tasks you're looking for have to be those that are not scriptable or very hard to script. When comparing to RL that should be anything that requires social skills.
I think that having people do sales is a good start. The current amount of things for sale (of which a lot I would categorise as crap) is impressive but hard to control. If a single person would bother to learn about product portfolios and could actually answer questions it would spur intrest and sales. For example if I'd want a vehicle I'd want to talk to somebody who's used to selling vehicles. If I want to be stylish I'll go ask somebody who's into clothing. The important thing should be product knowledge. There's likely tons of engineers who are not fond of sales but who can build great vehicles. Other things that can require social skills: game hosts, counseling, headhunters, ... Note that headhunters are similar to salespeople but they look for people not goods. You need a designer? Great, go to a headhunter, explain the project and let them find a designer that has both time and skill. Services drive a lot of the real world economies too. No only by providing jobs but also by driving sales. If I can't find the things I want easy enough I'll just have to do it myself or have it done in a mediocre way. |
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Pix Paz
Away with the Pixies
Join date: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 129
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03-23-2006 14:07
Is this an currently do-able example of the types of things we are talking about?
JEVN Vendor Technician 1. Buy a JEVN Vendor pack for $2K or so 2. Offer a service packaging products, establishing, managing and maintaining vendors on a clients behalf 3. Get 20% of sales revenue for providing this retailing service. |
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Patrick Playfair
Registered User
Join date: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 328
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03-23-2006 14:11
This is fantastic! Burning Man-like fairs, cute lil' linden shops, % of sale going to creators are all excellent ideas! Bring it on! Bringing back event host support so that Clubs can continue to provide entertainment and enlist event hosts. Beofre it was dropped last May, I had a staff of 47 on Elite Island. _____________________
The meek shall inherit the earth (after I'm through with it).
Patrick Playfair |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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03-23-2006 14:11
Without going in to boring details of economic analysis, employment and hence income are pretty much what sustain economies. If we as a community can make "work" fun, easy and play-like, we are creating and increasing the value of the SL economy. Hence, we want to explore and create more low-skilled money-making opportunities for SL residents. I'm very concerned with Linden Lab attempting to push or sponsor such things. The exchange rate for the L$ is already at a pretty low ebb, and well off of the ideal targets initially established by LL in the past. My question for you, then, is this: Where does the money come from? Does Linden Lab generate more of it to pay such jobs? Or are these jobs to be funded by money that already exists within the currency pool? Jobs funded, that is, by resident interest and resident money. The concern, obviously, is that if Linden Lab is paying out for these jobs, the jobs themselves won't have value except to Linden Lab, who will be compensating new customers at the cost of inflation. If the jobs actually had value within the economy beyond lining the pockets of the unskilled, there would be no problem getting the market to pay for them. Thus, if the market saw any value at all in unskilled labor, wouldn't this be a non-issue? Wouldn't there already be jobs-aplenty for the unskilled? The problem I see here is that most of SL's economy is driven forward by knowledge workers. In order to generate value here, you need to know how to generate experiences that make SL more interesting. Again, if this were possible without having any skill, wouldn't the market have already solved the problem itself? I'd implore you to please put aside your reluctance to discuss "boring" details of economic theory. I assure you, we can handle them. The devil is going to very much be in those details, and they're absolutely germane to the discussion at hand. If your motivation is to establish what will amount to dressed up, Linden-sanctioned and -funded camping chairs with pretty titles, I think that's absolutely critical for us to know up front. If your intent, on the other hand, is to find ways to squeeze real, market-driven value out of "unskilled" labor, that's a very different discussion indeed. I'm very worried about anyone trying "make" work fun, easy and play-like. That sounds a whole lot like some nasty meddling is going to go down. I really hope I don't have to shift over to a third-party micropayment system because of a valueless Linden this year. _____________________
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court. Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags? |
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Static Sprocket
Registered User
Join date: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 157
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03-23-2006 14:12
A tool with a list of ppl for hire, by category, with a rating system (with a protection that make it hard to be abused) could be a good idea. Well, a directory that lets employers drop in a review notecard along with Landmarks and contact information (for referals) should help here. But that's a service I suspect another "player" will need to come up with rather then Linden Labs. Although Linden Labs providing a Better Bussiness type service, where you can report "bad service" to and lookup records. Basically something where if I hire someone, and they don't do a good job, I can submit a report to Linden Labs. Then later, if somone else what's to hire the same person the new employer can check their record. Perhaps the employer needs permission from potential employee/contractor to view their record. Also limit it so that you cannot submit a review on sombody unless you've had a transaction with them in the last X days. Perhaps a mechanism that allows you to "Pay" someone directly, but mark it as something other then just "gift." If you mark it as something else, you could allow a description or review to be submitted along with it. So if I right click an avatar, select Pay. I then get prompted for "reason" for payment, with a few options such as [Gift, Commission, Salary, Contract, Other.] If you select anything other then Gift, your prompted for a one line description and a note/review box. They would also have a drop-down box for [Exceeded Expectations, Satisfied, Unsatisfactory]. Then later the person who got paid could give permission for others to view the reviews from their transaction log that are marked "Contract" -- the viewer then filter to check for "unsatisfactory" reviews. This still leaves room for abuse from friends hiring each other and giving each other "good" reviews. But does allow you to see bad reviews fairly easily. Still leaves holes for abuse, and I doubt Linden Labs could provide anything like this. It would be possible to make a resident run employment agency that had all the needed checks and balances though. Could also offer escrow services. |
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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03-23-2006 14:13
Hello! I would like to start a discussion on how we can increase job opportunities in SL. Please share your ideas with me. Thanks! LL could pay all the consumers that work the LL for free in $L or tier waivers. |
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Pix Paz
Away with the Pixies
Join date: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 129
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03-23-2006 14:20
Service Job - Lag Identification Expert
1. Someone becomes an expert in lag and what causes it. 2. Buys tools / develops skills and knowledge to help identify main lag generators at a certain point. 3. Gets paid to report on what is likely to be causing lag and potential remedies / options available. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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03-23-2006 14:22
The simplest thing I can think of to allow for sales jobs is simply to add a "resale" right, with a price attached. You would hand out the product no-transfer/copy (or no trans/no copy for more control) and then set "resale, L$250". The agent can then sell for L$250 (which would all go to the creator), or L$500 (with L$250 going to the creator), or whatever else they can get for it. In a competitive environment they're likely to end up selling pretty close to commission, of course...
When the sale's made, the buyer gets notified it's a commission sale... but not what part was the commission... and the creator gets all the details. Whether resale gets reset at that point or not? If you're looking to create a job, you wouldn't want all the customers becoming competitors. If you don't care about the channel, you'd want to leave it open: CODE
I would love this as a content creator AND as a builder. I could see having a Terra Sports Chute vendor set to cost on my land, next to my skydiving platform, and I could see having a resale price on the platform itself so all my customers are potential salespeople. |
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Lee Ludd
Scripted doors & windows
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 243
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03-23-2006 14:25
I would like to start a discussion on how we can increase job opportunities in SL. Please share your ideas with me. Thanks! I would hire someone to be caretaker in my store if there were some way to grant certain permissions that would currently be impossible, or at least, dangerous. For example: 1. People sometimes come in and have had a problem with one of my products -- e.g, they've managed to screw up a texture. Sometimes the easiest fix is to give them another copy, free. 2. Or, they want to trade one object for another, of equal value, or of different value. 3. Sometimes I screw up and put something up for sale but forget to turn the "buy" flag on. 4. I give a discount for multiple purchases of the same thing. I have vendors that do some of this, but not for everything. Usually I just set the price down temporarily for the customer. 5. Somebody comes in and asks for another copy of something that is no longer out on display, but is in my inventory, so I can sell the object to the customer. I know of no way I can delegate dealing with these issues to another. It would be nice to be able to grant, on a temporary basis, to another person certain permissions, such as: the ability to change the price of an object I have for sale; the ability to change the "buy" status of an object I own, the ability to rez certain objects from my inventory. But such a system of added privileges would have to be thought out VERY CAREFULLY. In addition, since there is practically no rule-of-law in SL, an employer has no recourse, whatsoever, if an employee were to cause serious or expensive damage of some sort. If the Lindens want to foster an environment that encourages some of us to offer serious jobs to others, you ought to figure out a way to provide some form of indemnification against the damage that might be caused by a "bad" employee. |
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Francis Chung
This sentence no verb.
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 918
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03-23-2006 14:25
A long time ago, we used have jobs in SL which fit the bill very well - it didn't cost very much, it added value, and everyone enjoyed it.
Once upon a time, LL actually payed people to host events. I think they offered L$500 to host a one-hour event. It didn't take much to get involved - all it took was a friendly attitude. My favourite event used to be show & tell. People would just come around and show off their latest builds/clothes/scripts and everyone would vote for the funnest one at the end. There was even a little bit of prize money. It was a great place to see what people were up to, what was possible in SL, and to meet people. I actually made a lot of friends who would later become business associates at these kinds of events. This actually used to be run on a daily basis. Ever since LL saw fit to discontinue event support, event listings are dominated by events with a much clearer financial motive - gambling, clubbing, shopping etc. Doing a quick search on events shows me the next show & tell event isn't scheduled until next month. It seems like bringing event support back could be used to accomplish your goals. PS. Vasudha, while we have your attention, could we please discuss the SL economy? _____________________
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~If you lived here, you would be home by now~ |
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Schwanson Schlegel
SL's Tokin' Villain
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 2,721
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03-23-2006 14:31
I'm very concerned with Linden Lab attempting to push or sponsor such things. The exchange rate for the L$ is already at a pretty low ebb, and well off of the ideal targets initially established by LL in the past. My question for you, then, is this: Where does the money come from? Does Linden Lab generate more of it to pay such jobs? Or are these jobs to be funded by money that already exists within the currency pool? Jobs funded, that is, by resident interest and resident money. The concern, obviously, is that if Linden Lab is paying out for these jobs, the jobs themselves won't have value except to Linden Lab, who will be compensating new customers at the cost of inflation. If the jobs actually had value within the economy beyond lining the pockets of the unskilled, there would be no problem getting the market to pay for them. Thus, if the market saw any value at all in unskilled labor, wouldn't this be a non-issue? Wouldn't there already be jobs-aplenty for the unskilled? The problem I see here is that most of SL's economy is driven forward by knowledge workers. In order to generate value here, you need to know how to generate experiences that make SL more interesting. Again, if this were possible without having any skill, wouldn't the market have already solved the problem itself? I'd implore you to please put aside your reluctance to discuss "boring" details of economic theory. I assure you, we can handle them. The devil is going to very much be in those details, and they're absolutely germane to the discussion at hand. If your motivation is to establish what will amount to dressed up, Linden-sanctioned and -funded camping chairs with pretty titles, I think that's absolutely critical for us to know up front. If your intent, on the other hand, is to find ways to squeeze real, market-driven value out of "unskilled" labor, that's a very different discussion indeed. I'm very worried about anyone trying "make" work fun, easy and play-like. That sounds a whole lot like some nasty meddling is going to go down. I really hope I don't have to shift over to a third-party micropayment system because of a valueless Linden this year. I agree 100% with Enabran's concerns. Please feel no need to spare us the boring economic data. I suspect some of us are capable of comprehending such data.  If this is a plan to make a skilless job class, using $L created by LL, I would say the day this is implemented is the day SL has 'Jumped the shark'. I have grave concerns that this is your intent, please tell me I am wrong. If this is a plan to help the skilled user's in SL, employ non skilled users to perform mundane tasks, than it may not be that bad of an idea. The key there IMO is a MAJOR overhaul of the permissions system. People that play SL already get paid for free, it's called stipends. If we create a way for people to earn $L without doing anything productive, doesn't that just prove the $L is without value? _____________________
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Schwanson Schlegel
SL's Tokin' Villain
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 2,721
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03-23-2006 14:37
PS. Vasudha, while we have your attention, could we please discuss the SL economy? Haha. That would be a nice change. _____________________
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Merwan Marker
Booring...
Join date: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,706
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03-23-2006 14:47
--- It seems like bringing event support back could be used to accomplish your goals. --- Excellent!  _____________________
Don't Worry, Be Happy - Meher Baba
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Rickard Roentgen
Renaissance Punk
Join date: 4 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,869
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03-23-2006 14:59
Point well taken! Not "working" is always an enjoyable option. In the U.S. economy there are many who voluntarily leave the work force but obviously still spend and consume. I certainly was one of them, until recently. However, there are people who "want" to work and want to make money, because SL is fun and it a great community and there's nothing like it out there. Without going in to boring details of economic analysis, employment and hence income are pretty much what sustain economies. If we as a community can make "work" fun, easy and play-like, we are creating and increasing the value of the SL economy. Hence, we want to explore and create more low-skilled money-making opportunities for SL residents. you're talking about npc missions. _____________________
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Anjo Mirabeau
Registered User
Join date: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 266
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03-23-2006 15:20
Point well taken! Not "working" is always an enjoyable option. In the U.S. economy there are many who voluntarily leave the work force but obviously still spend and consume. I certainly was one of them, until recently. However, there are people who "want" to work and want to make money, because SL is fun and it a great community and there's nothing like it out there. Without going in to boring details of economic analysis, employment and hence income are pretty much what sustain economies. If we as a community can make "work" fun, easy and play-like, we are creating and increasing the value of the SL economy. Hence, we want to explore and create more low-skilled money-making opportunities for SL residents. Why? Whats wrong with a steep learning curve? What about all the residents that were'nt handed everything on a platter? No gift packs on entry. No nothing. In the real world a low-skilled money-making opportunity sounds like something that can be "farmed" like in other games. In the game Lineage2 it was rampant. _____________________
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