Northern Continent: Preserve the Beauty - at least for a while!

I have been to the new continent tonight and ... OMG is it beautiful! All that land with no unsightly buildings, very detailed textures, landscaping obviously done by a real pro, long roads. Can't wait for the first train on the railroad ...

Wouldn't it be nice, if it could stay that way for a while?

I know, 'land is for living' and someone has to pay the bills for LL (and the land economy seems to be a very important part of their earnings). But 'living' is more than 'living in buildings'. And it can not be THAT expensive to keep some 10 or 20 servers running and have a large beautiful area for residents who like to 'get away' .

Who knows, it might even make SL more attractive to some (potential) residents, which could compensate for the missing tiers payments ate least a little? It certainly makes it more attractive to me.

What is your opinion?

I agree and wouldn't it be great if the existing railway that is already in purple extended out to meet the new railway in the new continent.

I like your idea. I would go there to get away. It is always nice to see new sims with no builds on them it's a tranquil feeling to see just the land and water.
I can't wait to see the train to!

My main concern is the water-stilt mini-city. That at least will probably be preserved in some way, I hope. I'd hate to see all that building by LL go away.

My guess is that LL will sell parcels alongside the walkways to encourage a floating town. Just a guess tho.

Rumor I heard is that all but the 'road' pieces (widest of the wooden walkways) will be razed and sold off. I forgot to ask specifically about the Moth Goddess Temple. Hope at least that stays.

-Ghoti

I thought a lot about this and then clicked off: no, the land should be auctioned as soon as possible -- however

-- they don't have to put it wholesale in huge parcels on the auction
-- they can have a mixture of well-placed first-land, individual plots in-world for sale immediately rather than auctioned, and auctioned land
--they could leave Linden builds on and have zoned sims as they did in Brown and Boardman in their day
--they could rent if they can provide a mechanism to do that easily on the land

I think players need to take charge of this world. We can't have the Lindens maintaining a socialist net-nanny state. Players need to cooperate, form groups, pool tier, do some planning, and create their own zoned sims for what they need, whether residential or shopping.

Honestly, as much as I'd like to see a land unspoiled by the stigma of mainland builds, this is just wishful thinking.

Typically, the level of cooperation that's needed for a "zoned" or "regulated" build only exists when there's one or a handful of owners in a sim - mainly because there's a final say in what stays and what goes. And, as much as I disagree with Prokofy on many points, I think he has a point that a "social" solution is just too difficult to regulate effectively. Residents need to cooperate.

So, unless someone solves the problem of, "Screw you guys, I'm building what I want on my land," I think it's safe to say that the new land will repeat history here. I'm open to suggestions.

One idea I know I support is better "renting" tools for residents, because it promotes builds of a more aesthetic or unified nature. On the other hand, people have cried foul that this scheme hurts LL's income. Thoughts?

*Rolls eyes*

People who jealously guard the LL's income stream -- like they have a problem getting income lol? -- need to understand a few facts of life.

A person who rents land first buys it, and pays the Lindens tier. The Lindens get everything they need from that land -- at auction, and ever after, every month in tier. Either they provide players with the freedom to do what they want with paid land -- including renting it or reselling it -- or they don't. If they don't, they don't get a lot of new customers because people need freedom on the Internet, which is generally a free, not obstructed venue.

A player who has only a basic account and no tier can gain access to more land through renting. That increases their hours in the game, their purchases of objects from other players, and their general enhancing of the economy -- all to the Lindens benefit. In many cases, I would say 50 percent at least, players save on their rentals for a few months, then they go on to purchase their own land, whereupon they become paying customers for the Linden's tier scheme. One player's rental to another player is in a sense a player's willingness to subsidize the very steep learning curve and savings curve needed to play this game, providing a kind of conveyer belt to increased Linden income because Lindens do not have the staff, time, or resources to make their game more accessible.

In most cases, players only pay up to what they get in a stipend per month. So let's say a couple who earn $1000 in stipends between them, both with premium accounts, can pay rent in the game. From me, they would get 4096 square meters for that price -- that's $16 (calculating the GOM at $4.07 today), one dollar more than the tier of $15 you would pay for 4096 plus your free 512. At $1 a month on a property, you do not even begin to earn back its purchase price for months, and you have to factor that it is not fully rented all those months sometimes . This couple might only get 2048 meters from someone else for that price, but the bottom line is, you are not going to see high rents in this game such as to cover tier, purchase price, and expenses (like housing) because players cannot pay those prices. They do the math, and they save a little and buy their own land.

So are you starting to get it? Rentals are not a money-making business. They can barely cover the cost of tier on many lots, and even lose on tier. Those who chose to cover their tier AND make a profit find they can only serve a very select group of customers, usually high-end content makers who have a huge flow of Lindens to use on rent. If you want to understand why anyone would run a rentals business then, talk to me in game.

Many people have a mistaken belief that the Lindens somehow frown on, or discourage rentals. They do not in the slightest. I run hundreds of rental spaces of land and no Linden as ever uttered a discouraging word, if anything, they have only been helpful in solving problems like houses going too far out on their water and returning. What, the Lindens will allow massive amounts of non-land commercial spaces in malls run by barons for years, netting fortunes for barons, but now they will start to frown on tiny amounts of land rented out by realtors that doesn't even cover tier, or barely covers it? Huh?

Another method is to have players donate their paid tier to get access to land without a purchase price, a wonderful way to save money in general or to put it aside for eventual land purchases.

The Lindens could consider creating a rentomatic type object distributed freely in the game like a door script, or simply a function on the land (that actually works, unlike the ticket price function) that enables rental payments automatically. This would cap the real ill-gotten fortunes of the few players who are gouging fantastic prices for rental machines ($5000 for one non-commission unit!). Renting should be an encouraged and normal function in the game. The Lindens could rent their own land as well to players who are willing to abide by their zoning regulations and who do not want to pay purchase prices. My guess is that the Lindens won't do this because even for the Lindens, the economics of the rental business will not be justified given the heavy customer service involved.

If that oil platform gets returned, I swear -- that would be the biggest waste of LL employee build time ever. I love that thing. I'm squatting there from here on out. I don't care who owns it.

I can't emphasize this enough - take your pictures NOW, before the primtide infects it.

.

I can't believe the Lindens will do that. Surely they will make that area some kind of public gathering space? For events or town meetings? Or just...to look at and be there and hang out in? Or it will stay on the property somehow?

Well, I can't help thinking, as much as I love this area too, that the Lindens have a copy. And one thing the Lindens have loads of is free land and server space. And they can press "paste" and "copy" on new squares at any time, type in the numbers, and fit the pieces together. It's a bit of work, but they have the resources.

I share your view of the "primtide" up to a point. And yet, I'm going to err on the side of allowing the primtide. The primtide means individuals, and I care about individual and communities even if they build mediocre kitsch that you hate. The primtide is the income stream for the Lindens. They should merely be the host. Host your own servers and block the primtide if you like.

We cannot live in a fascist corporatist state where only high-quality builders and the state itself get to build and establish aesthetic norms. It is death. It didn't work in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. It can't work here. There are other ways to encourage the preservation of sims and cooperation among players to keep them beautiful without getting overly sentimental about Linden builds or getting overly controlling of the "primtide" and overly celebratory about architects.

Kelly said last night that the rate of land auction is not going to change. LL simply made it all visible at once rather than one at a time. This would suggest that we'll get slow and steady development of the new region while allowing time to enjoy the trees.

Word, Maxx. The Prim Rig is AWESOME. Really cool, professional build.

Jeffrey Gomez, your PokeProk Score is:

50:1.

(counting only the quote that was mentioned in Prokofy's response)

You know I'm flying about it right now and it is very nice, particularly the underwater detail.

I can't help thinking that what this place needs though is a couple of clubs and maybe a mall or two!

<ducks>

Hey, it's not an argument I would personally make. I love it when I get whalloped for invoking the other side.

Prokofy, I am far from a socialist (more of a capitalist pig in RL). And I don't think I advocated a 'net-nanny' state; whatever this might be. But preserving a little wilderness (or beauty) might make business sense for the Lindens - because it makes SL more attractive.

... but its hard to envision how a group of residents could organize something like that, how it might make business sense for them. A dozen sims would cost more then 2K/month. And they would not 'profit' (in monetary terms) from a more beautiful SL. At least I think, the dwell bonus would not be enough to cover for that costs.

Side question: have the large National Parks of the USA really been erected by socialist governments?

I like the idea of sims organized by groups of players, though. But thats a different issue. And just now I don't see many possibilities how such a group could effectively enforce any kind of group/sim charter or see to it that the players pay their tier fees - maybe one of the reasons, why I don't have seen many wildly succesful experiments of that kind.

I think since the ANWR sim (the one with the oil/prim rig) is surrounded by water sims, that this sim will also be considered as such and the rig is just a rare docoration. The fact that its PG could possibly support that.

As for renting, there are many reasons people will rent. Some will want privacy or predictability and rent off an island sim just as much as they'd rent off a mainland one. Those seeking privacy will likely pay more for it.

Also, there is nothing stopping LL from declaring some of these sims as 'protected' like some of the Snow Sims were, and/or allowing long-term event builds on some of them on something along a rental basis.

Then if groups of players can't organize it, why expect the Lindens to pay for it in perpetuity? There are single and group players who are currently holding and paying tier on large tracts of forest preserve, making their property and their entire sim a beauty for others also to enjoy.

I don't know how they justify this expense.

I know that when I try to preserve nice areas I have to pay the tier, so I rent some or all of it out, maybe selling off some parcels too to cover costs. There just isn't any other way.

Dwell is a sucker's game. You can't get the admissions tools on the land to work. You can't get people to pay admissions and ticket prices. So renting and selling judiciously is all there is.

When I attack socialism, I attack it as an institutionalized state and ideology infecting all of government and society. That doesn't mean that you don't have democratically chosen public interest features of society like national parks. National parks aren't socialism. They are public interest or government owned use of land, usually with fees to pay expenses, and often with concessions given out to companies like Taco Bell in order to provide services. This is the reality. No need to get all teary-eyed about socialism and public works programs in the 1930s that made the parks and roads, but which could not go on paying for them today. Only tourism industries, concessions, fast food, the car industry, gasoline, and a host of other features of the consumer capitalist societies make it possible to also protect natural preserves. That's the context you have to see it in.

I do believe it is possible to organize sims around these ideas:

1. public commons that is held by a community association where everyone donates 512 tier
2. land sold to owners who pay for the tier on it
3. land rented to residents who help pay for tier
4. land rented to businesses who pay tier and then some to generate more cash to cover the overall expenses

New computers are purcahsed and installed in the co-loc by Linden Lab to run new simulators and add to the landmass available in Second Life. Then, as population growth rises, this land can be made available to new and old players alike.

Until it is sold, it has been a growing trend for Linden Lab to decorate the landscape with trees, roads, and buildings to make it more interesting than endless hills of dirt and grass.

Some of these elements are intended to be sold with the land, like trees. (This is taking 1.6 into account, where the contents of the land can be sold with the land itself.) Other elements like roads, rivers, and infrastructure features like telehubs, are meant to remain under Linden ownership and provide some continuity throughout blocks of sims.

I'm very happy to see that even MORE time and effort has been spent in spiffying up the new land. The details added are a great starting place for new builds.

And if some of these Linden-made structures are sold with the land, and then removed... That would be sad, but maybe the new owner can sell them off to someone else. But I would think that the "added-value" land will go for a premium to people who want, not just the LAND, but the build too.

I've heard Philip say "value-added land" so many times, it's good to see his people set a big example of just what that can mean.

I look forward to the future. Thank you for that, as always, Linden Lab.

Looks like the sims are to be sold off just like any other. 13000-odd of auction land has appeared in Cecropia.

Goodbye, new continent.

First land is for sale in Euryalus, for those of you with no land or with alts.

That oil is gonna be mine!!!! When does ANWR land go up for sale? I can see it now, PrimOil will become a commodity and PrimOil rich land in ANWR will be a cash cow... I'll take 10,000m for L$200,000

I've really enjoyed exploring new sims when they come out, especially this new continent... it's some of the most beautiful work LL has done so far. Maybe I'm just too sentimental, but it's getting harder and harder to see lush, forested, wild places turn into houses and clubs and malls 24 hours after their appearance. I've reached a point where I'd really prefer to see new sims kept as empty and featureless as possible-- don't bother with the forests, mountains, or unusual road textures-- because that way it'll feel like less of a kick in the teeth when they're carved up, sold, and start bristling with huge commercial builds. It'd be nice if beauty had as much value here as money does.

NEWSFLASH Ilianexsi. "new sims kept as empty and featureless as possible" don't make any money. And last I recall, LL isn't here to provide you with a free game world while they have to pay thousands for servers, employees, electric bills, etc.. Land Ownership/Sales pays the bills and if YOU wanna keep a sim featureless and empty, then I suggest you open your wallet and buy up all the land you wanna leave as-is.

Everything old is new again...

Everytime something new and different pops up a lot of people wish it could stay that way forever (myself included to some extent) , but it's not meant to be, and not gonna happen.

And in the span of a few weeks the feeling will pass... I don't hear too many laments for the southlands (mavericks et al. -- the first major land addition).. Nor do I hear pining for the snowsims anymore...

I think it's a natural way to feel this way - and it eventually passes.


Nothing here is constant but change.....


Siggy.

I love Sprawl... It adds to the economic growth of SL.