Second Life Forums Archive - Land Auction Abuse

Caliandris Pendragon

Waiting in the light

Join date: 12 Feb 2004

Posts: 643

05-03-2006 07:28

From: Dana Bergson

Let's be reasonable, please. I can perfectly understand the reactions of some of my fellow residents in the land business, who somehow profited from this exploit. It is only human to try and defend your actions - even to yourself and especially if you profit from them.

But these "auctions" did not follow the rules the Lindens set up for land auctions, so LL is perfectly within their rights to "cancel and roll back". And please stop the nitpicking about the interpretation of some sentences on the auctions pages.

Land auctions have allways been (and are clearly intended to be) public auctions.

Everything that is relevant to the preceedings is described clearly on the web page. Every resident with a clean record can take part in them. There are no hidden clues or puzzles to solve. That is what the Lindens intend to do with the auctions - because it guarantees the highest prices.

A software error has lead to a situation, where one could use the system to start a kind of bidding in a closed circle of people; probably only one at first and then some others, who heard about the exploit. That's not a public auction anymore.

I emboldened the text up there.

From: Anshe Chung

Very well said, Dana

I am interested to know that you are all in favour of fair and square dealing in auctions.

There have been some posts in the threads to do with this exploit which intimate that some people bid up sims, win them, and then don't honour their commitments...in some ways that seems just as bad as this exploit, because that actually loses another resident an auction which they might have won legally and fairly.
Cali

_____________________

Numbakulla: Pot Healer's Mystery, free to play and explore
http://caliinsecondlife.blogspot.com/
http://www.nemesis-content.com]Nemesis Content Creation
_________________________________________________
The main obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge~Daniel J. Boorstin

Kazanture Aleixandre

Here I am.

Join date: 5 Oct 2005

Posts: 524

05-03-2006 07:35

From: Caliandris Pendragon

I emboldened the text up there.

I am interested to know that you are all in favour of fair and square dealing in auctions.

There have been some posts in the threads to do with this exploit which intimate that some people bid up sims, win them, and then don't honour their commitments...in some ways that seems just as bad as this exploit, because that actually loses another resident an auction which they might have won legally and fairly.
Cali

I paid for EVERY SINGLE sim which i won at auctions in 2 days after i won the bid(usually in less than 24 hours.).

Ingrid Ingersoll

Archived

Join date: 10 Aug 2004

Posts: 4,601

05-03-2006 07:45

From: Kazanture Aleixandre

LL, please go to a court and share the decissions of the court with us, so in the future noone can try to take advantage of bugs to steal.

Yes and at the same time, you should petition to have your local grocery store closed so that thieves are not able to steal from it.

_____________________

http://www.ingrid.0catch.com/1.html

Reitsuki Kojima

Witchhunter

Join date: 27 Jan 2004

Posts: 5,328

05-03-2006 07:47

From: Land Arizona

I don't read it that way Blakar. It says planned for auction. You go there and start the auction. There are others that are blue, where you cant start the auction. My read is that someone at Linden created three possibilities with these blue squares:

1. They start the auction;
2. You start the auction;
3. No auction can be started.

I've been using auction sites since the internet started having them, and I've been to RL auctions. I never seen auctions that the bidder starts.

_____________________

I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.

Tyr Sartre

Stipend Breeder

Join date: 27 Sep 2005

Posts: 76

05-03-2006 16:39

One other way I can think to describe this is going and bidding on an ebay auction. The seller has a minimum bid set, but it doesn't show what it is. Well, someone bids 50 bucks on a 69 corvet set this way, wins, sets it back up to auction really cheap to dump it off real quick, sells it to another bidder, then complains all over and threatening lawsuits against everyone when the original seller says that they didn't win because the minimum bid wasn't met.
Do you think this person would win a lawsuit in court? Of course not.

Now add the element of the bidder finding the sellers ebay ID and setting it up for a private auction so they can bid on it themselves...then talking to an employee of the seller and mentioning a car that the employer has for sale being a really good deal, and the employee saying "Yeah we have alot of great deals going on, have fun bidding!" or something to that effect, does that make it any better? Or does it make it criminal?

Jackson Callisto

Registered User

Join date: 3 Mar 2006

Posts: 46

05-03-2006 18:21

if you manipulate they system to give yourself an unfair advantage 90% your case wont hold up in court.

Even if say these people were just toying around and really didnt think addin the ID# was doing any harm and that they were still using the bidden method. its still morally wrong once you notice something not right or diffrent from the standard proccedures.

But to say LL should either let them have the sims or pay for the mistake is like if someone says drop there cell phone in a public place you pick it up and decide to well you need a phone just gonna activate with another carrier. only to find the phone was traced and the owner wants it back, for you to tell the owner that they should either let you keep it or pay you for there accident of droppin it.

We are all adults.. Ok most us are adults.. ok ok some of us are adults but we all know right from wrong and usually we know when something seems wrong. If you choose to over look that in hopes no one will speak up then its your own fault and you have whats coming to you

Juro Kothari

Like a dog on a bone

Join date: 4 Sep 2003

Posts: 4,418

05-03-2006 20:51

From: Jackson Callisto

...but we all know right from wrong...

Evidentally, not. If all of us did, I doubt this would have happened.

_____________________

Sensual Casanova

Spoiled Brat

Join date: 28 Feb 2004

Posts: 4,807

05-03-2006 22:47

From: Caliandris Pendragon

I emboldened the text up there.

I am interested to know that you are all in favour of fair and square dealing in auctions.

There have been some posts in the threads to do with this exploit which intimate that some people bid up sims, win them, and then don't honour their commitments...in some ways that seems just as bad as this exploit, because that actually loses another resident an auction which they might have won legally and fairly.
Cali

oooo Snap!

_____________________

Sensual Designs & Animations
Sensual Productions

Teleport to Sensual Designs & Animations

Dana Bergson

Registered User

Join date: 14 Oct 2005

Posts: 561

05-03-2006 23:29

From: Caliandris Pendragon

I am interested to know that you are all in favour of fair and square dealing in auctions.

There have been some posts in the threads to do with this exploit which intimate that some people bid up sims, win them, and then don't honour their commitments...in some ways that seems just as bad as this exploit, because that actually loses another resident an auction which they might have won legally and fairly.

I aggree. If someone were to use this methodically it certainly would be stretching the rules of the auction system.

There is a big difference between defaulting on an auction win and the exploit dicussed in this thread here. Defaulting is perfectly legal and well within the rules Linden Lab set up for the auctions. It does not happen often but is not exactly rare either.

So there is nothing to "intimate" that some people did this in the past, because it is perfectly legal (and cost this people real money). In these cases the sim is offered to the next highest bidder by Linden Lab. If the next highest bidder does not accept the offer it is put on the block again. This makes it hard to systematically use this mechanism to gain an unfair advantage on the market in my opinion. All you achieve is taking the sim off the market for a few days. *shrugs*

Just in case you should ask: No, I never defaulted on an auction I won although I was tempted to do do so in two cases.

Caliandris Pendragon

Waiting in the light

Join date: 12 Feb 2004

Posts: 643

05-04-2006 00:05

From: Dana Bergson

So there is nothing to "intimate" that some people did this in the past, because it is perfectly legal (and cost this people real money). In these cases the sim is offered to the next highest bidder by Linden Lab. If the next highest bidder does not accept the offer it is put on the block again. This makes it hard to systematically use this mechanism to gain an unfair advantage on the market in my opinion. All you achieve is taking the sim off the market for a few days. *shrugs*

Well...I would say this depends upon how big a player you are, and how systematic the abuse is. If you were able to bid all the auctions you were interested in up to the point where you win them all, and then cherry pick the ones that you wanted...it might be worth paying the small financial penalty, and would put you in control of all those areas you wanted to control, wouldn't it?

I am interested to know if ALL the defaulting bidders' bids would be removed from the auction. If not, this might artificially inflate prices, and would be a no-risk strategy except for the small default charge.

The by-product of this as a practice would be that individual bidders who were interested in the sims bid up and defaulted on, would lose the auction...I can see that if you are interested in one sim and lose it continually against bidders that default, you might well lose out, or ultimately lose interest.

It begs the question of "when is a legally binding contract, NOT a legally binding contract"?

It also begs the question of what happens if everyone behaves in this way....
Cali

_____________________

Numbakulla: Pot Healer's Mystery, free to play and explore
http://caliinsecondlife.blogspot.com/
http://www.nemesis-content.com]Nemesis Content Creation
_________________________________________________
The main obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge~Daniel J. Boorstin

Dana Bergson

Registered User

Join date: 14 Oct 2005

Posts: 561

05-04-2006 00:35

From: Caliandris Pendragon

Well...I would say this depends upon how big a player you are, and how systematic the abuse is. If you were able to bid all the auctions you were interested in up to the point where you win them all, and then cherry pick the ones that you wanted...it might be worth paying the small financial penalty, and would put you in control of all those areas you wanted to control, wouldn't it?

It depends. I am not sure how detailed you watch the land market, Cali. Relatively to the margins you can achieve on the market today (we are not talking last year), this penalty is not exactly "small". Defaulting on 2 or more sims to cherrypick a nice one does not make sense businesswise. Honestly, besides the intimidation tactics you mentioned, it is hard to imagine such a system as profitable. And I am not aware of anyone practicing it. I have to admit that I don't do bookkeeping on defaulted auctions. From personal memory I would say that sometimes it happens with "Big Players" sometime with small ones.

Do you have any data that it is happening systematically?

From: Caliandris Pendragon

It begs the question of "when is a legally binding contract, NOT a legally binding contract"?

I would not say so, because Linden Lab does explicitely allow defaulting and has set up rules for handling it (penalty, asking the next highest bidder etc.) So the option to default is part of the contract. I agree that, used on a grand scale, this could be seen as abuse.

From: Caliandris Pendragon

It also begs the question of what happens if everyone behaves in this way....

Talking about "fairness"? This is a hard one.

Fairness is often interpreted very differently by people with different interests. But let's not forget that Linden Lab has a strong interest in auctions that result in a maximum of earnings. So, I am sure that, if this would really happen in such a scale, that competition is seriously hampered, they would certainly change the rules.

Although, reading this again, I am not sure of my last point. If you look at the flood of flat, green, mature land, that the Lindens are throwing onto the market and pushing prices down, I am not sure that they are interested in upholding auction prices. The avarage price for a full sim has fallen well below 1,100 US$ these days.

Shirley Marquez

Ethical SLut

Join date: 28 Oct 2005

Posts: 788

05-04-2006 08:42

From: Dana Bergson

I am not sure that they are interested in upholding auction prices. The avarage price for a full sim has fallen well below 1,100 US$ these days.

So long as the sims keep selling, I don't think they're too concerned about the price -- that is, if they get at least the $1,000 minimum. If new sims stop selling, they'll slow down the supply.

Cybertek Warrior

Registered User

Join date: 15 Nov 2005

Posts: 7

Glad they Canceled All Accounts However

05-17-2006 09:12

I am personally glad that they cancelled all of the Auction Scam users accounts. A whole sim for $1US come on. Get Real. However the simplest solution to this would have been to refund what they paid for the sims, not the profit for the land sales, since the land was got illigitametly. Reinstate there account, and make sure the exploit was fixed.

Land Auction Abuse
Caliandris Pendragon Waiting in the light Join date: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 643	05-03-2006 07:28 From: Dana Bergson Let's be reasonable, please. I can perfectly understand the reactions of some of my fellow residents in the land business, who somehow profited from this exploit. It is only human to try and defend your actions - even to yourself and especially if you profit from them. But these "auctions" did not follow the rules the Lindens set up for land auctions, so LL is perfectly within their rights to "cancel and roll back". And please stop the nitpicking about the interpretation of some sentences on the auctions pages. Land auctions have allways been (and are clearly intended to be) public auctions. Everything that is relevant to the preceedings is described clearly on the web page. Every resident with a clean record can take part in them. There are no hidden clues or puzzles to solve. That is what the Lindens intend to do with the auctions - because it guarantees the highest prices. A software error has lead to a situation, where one could use the system to start a kind of bidding in a closed circle of people; probably only one at first and then some others, who heard about the exploit. That's not a public auction anymore. I emboldened the text up there. From: Anshe Chung Very well said, Dana I am interested to know that you are all in favour of fair and square dealing in auctions. There have been some posts in the threads to do with this exploit which intimate that some people bid up sims, win them, and then don't honour their commitments...in some ways that seems just as bad as this exploit, because that actually loses another resident an auction which they might have won legally and fairly. Cali _____________________ Numbakulla: Pot Healer's Mystery, free to play and explore http://caliinsecondlife.blogspot.com/ http://www.nemesis-content.com]Nemesis Content Creation _________________________________________________ The main obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge~Daniel J. Boorstin
Kazanture Aleixandre Here I am. Join date: 5 Oct 2005 Posts: 524	05-03-2006 07:35 From: Caliandris Pendragon I emboldened the text up there. I am interested to know that you are all in favour of fair and square dealing in auctions. There have been some posts in the threads to do with this exploit which intimate that some people bid up sims, win them, and then don't honour their commitments...in some ways that seems just as bad as this exploit, because that actually loses another resident an auction which they might have won legally and fairly. Cali I paid for EVERY SINGLE sim which i won at auctions in 2 days after i won the bid(usually in less than 24 hours.).
Ingrid Ingersoll Archived Join date: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 4,601	05-03-2006 07:45 From: Kazanture Aleixandre LL, please go to a court and share the decissions of the court with us, so in the future noone can try to take advantage of bugs to steal. Yes and at the same time, you should petition to have your local grocery store closed so that thieves are not able to steal from it. _____________________ http://www.ingrid.0catch.com/1.html
Reitsuki Kojima Witchhunter Join date: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 5,328	05-03-2006 07:47 From: Land Arizona I don't read it that way Blakar. It says planned for auction. You go there and start the auction. There are others that are blue, where you cant start the auction. My read is that someone at Linden created three possibilities with these blue squares: 1. They start the auction; 2. You start the auction; 3. No auction can be started. I've been using auction sites since the internet started having them, and I've been to RL auctions. I never seen auctions that the bidder starts. _____________________ I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Tyr Sartre Stipend Breeder Join date: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 76	05-03-2006 16:39 One other way I can think to describe this is going and bidding on an ebay auction. The seller has a minimum bid set, but it doesn't show what it is. Well, someone bids 50 bucks on a 69 corvet set this way, wins, sets it back up to auction really cheap to dump it off real quick, sells it to another bidder, then complains all over and threatening lawsuits against everyone when the original seller says that they didn't win because the minimum bid wasn't met. Do you think this person would win a lawsuit in court? Of course not. Now add the element of the bidder finding the sellers ebay ID and setting it up for a private auction so they can bid on it themselves...then talking to an employee of the seller and mentioning a car that the employer has for sale being a really good deal, and the employee saying "Yeah we have alot of great deals going on, have fun bidding!" or something to that effect, does that make it any better? Or does it make it criminal?
Jackson Callisto Registered User Join date: 3 Mar 2006 Posts: 46	05-03-2006 18:21 if you manipulate they system to give yourself an unfair advantage 90% your case wont hold up in court. Even if say these people were just toying around and really didnt think addin the ID# was doing any harm and that they were still using the bidden method. its still morally wrong once you notice something not right or diffrent from the standard proccedures. But to say LL should either let them have the sims or pay for the mistake is like if someone says drop there cell phone in a public place you pick it up and decide to well you need a phone just gonna activate with another carrier. only to find the phone was traced and the owner wants it back, for you to tell the owner that they should either let you keep it or pay you for there accident of droppin it. We are all adults.. Ok most us are adults.. ok ok some of us are adults but we all know right from wrong and usually we know when something seems wrong. If you choose to over look that in hopes no one will speak up then its your own fault and you have whats coming to you
Juro Kothari Like a dog on a bone Join date: 4 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,418	05-03-2006 20:51 From: Jackson Callisto ...but we all know right from wrong... Evidentally, not. If all of us did, I doubt this would have happened. _____________________
Sensual Casanova Spoiled Brat Join date: 28 Feb 2004 Posts: 4,807	05-03-2006 22:47 From: Caliandris Pendragon I emboldened the text up there. I am interested to know that you are all in favour of fair and square dealing in auctions. There have been some posts in the threads to do with this exploit which intimate that some people bid up sims, win them, and then don't honour their commitments...in some ways that seems just as bad as this exploit, because that actually loses another resident an auction which they might have won legally and fairly. Cali oooo Snap! _____________________ Sensual Designs & Animations Sensual Productions Teleport to Sensual Designs & Animations
Dana Bergson Registered User Join date: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 561	05-03-2006 23:29 From: Caliandris Pendragon I am interested to know that you are all in favour of fair and square dealing in auctions. There have been some posts in the threads to do with this exploit which intimate that some people bid up sims, win them, and then don't honour their commitments...in some ways that seems just as bad as this exploit, because that actually loses another resident an auction which they might have won legally and fairly. I aggree. If someone were to use this methodically it certainly would be stretching the rules of the auction system. There is a big difference between defaulting on an auction win and the exploit dicussed in this thread here. Defaulting is perfectly legal and well within the rules Linden Lab set up for the auctions. It does not happen often but is not exactly rare either. So there is nothing to "intimate" that some people did this in the past, because it is perfectly legal (and cost this people real money). In these cases the sim is offered to the next highest bidder by Linden Lab. If the next highest bidder does not accept the offer it is put on the block again. This makes it hard to systematically use this mechanism to gain an unfair advantage on the market in my opinion. All you achieve is taking the sim off the market for a few days. shrugs Just in case you should ask: No, I never defaulted on an auction I won although I was tempted to do do so in two cases.
Caliandris Pendragon Waiting in the light Join date: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 643	05-04-2006 00:05 From: Dana Bergson So there is nothing to "intimate" that some people did this in the past, because it is perfectly legal (and cost this people real money). In these cases the sim is offered to the next highest bidder by Linden Lab. If the next highest bidder does not accept the offer it is put on the block again. This makes it hard to systematically use this mechanism to gain an unfair advantage on the market in my opinion. All you achieve is taking the sim off the market for a few days. shrugs Well...I would say this depends upon how big a player you are, and how systematic the abuse is. If you were able to bid all the auctions you were interested in up to the point where you win them all, and then cherry pick the ones that you wanted...it might be worth paying the small financial penalty, and would put you in control of all those areas you wanted to control, wouldn't it? I am interested to know if ALL the defaulting bidders' bids would be removed from the auction. If not, this might artificially inflate prices, and would be a no-risk strategy except for the small default charge. The by-product of this as a practice would be that individual bidders who were interested in the sims bid up and defaulted on, would lose the auction...I can see that if you are interested in one sim and lose it continually against bidders that default, you might well lose out, or ultimately lose interest. It begs the question of "when is a legally binding contract, NOT a legally binding contract"? It also begs the question of what happens if everyone behaves in this way.... Cali _____________________ Numbakulla: Pot Healer's Mystery, free to play and explore http://caliinsecondlife.blogspot.com/ http://www.nemesis-content.com]Nemesis Content Creation _________________________________________________ The main obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge~Daniel J. Boorstin
Dana Bergson Registered User Join date: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 561	05-04-2006 00:35 From: Caliandris Pendragon Well...I would say this depends upon how big a player you are, and how systematic the abuse is. If you were able to bid all the auctions you were interested in up to the point where you win them all, and then cherry pick the ones that you wanted...it might be worth paying the small financial penalty, and would put you in control of all those areas you wanted to control, wouldn't it? It depends. I am not sure how detailed you watch the land market, Cali. Relatively to the margins you can achieve on the market today (we are not talking last year), this penalty is not exactly "small". Defaulting on 2 or more sims to cherrypick a nice one does not make sense businesswise. Honestly, besides the intimidation tactics you mentioned, it is hard to imagine such a system as profitable. And I am not aware of anyone practicing it. I have to admit that I don't do bookkeeping on defaulted auctions. From personal memory I would say that sometimes it happens with "Big Players" sometime with small ones. Do you have any data that it is happening systematically? From: Caliandris Pendragon It begs the question of "when is a legally binding contract, NOT a legally binding contract"? I would not say so, because Linden Lab does explicitely allow defaulting and has set up rules for handling it (penalty, asking the next highest bidder etc.) So the option to default is part of the contract. I agree that, used on a grand scale, this could be seen as abuse. From: Caliandris Pendragon It also begs the question of what happens if everyone behaves in this way.... Talking about "fairness"? This is a hard one. Fairness is often interpreted very differently by people with different interests. But let's not forget that Linden Lab has a strong interest in auctions that result in a maximum of earnings. So, I am sure that, if this would really happen in such a scale, that competition is seriously hampered, they would certainly change the rules. Although, reading this again, I am not sure of my last point. If you look at the flood of flat, green, mature land, that the Lindens are throwing onto the market and pushing prices down, I am not sure that they are interested in upholding auction prices. The avarage price for a full sim has fallen well below 1,100 US$ these days.
Shirley Marquez Ethical SLut Join date: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 788	05-04-2006 08:42 From: Dana Bergson I am not sure that they are interested in upholding auction prices. The avarage price for a full sim has fallen well below 1,100 US$ these days. So long as the sims keep selling, I don't think they're too concerned about the price -- that is, if they get at least the $1,000 minimum. If new sims stop selling, they'll slow down the supply.
Cybertek Warrior Registered User Join date: 15 Nov 2005 Posts: 7	Glad they Canceled All Accounts However 05-17-2006 09:12 I am personally glad that they cancelled all of the Auction Scam users accounts. A whole sim for $1US come on. Get Real. However the simplest solution to this would have been to refund what they paid for the sims, not the profit for the land sales, since the land was got illigitametly. Reinstate there account, and make sure the exploit was fixed.

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Land Auction Abuse