New Continent News Damping Sales?

oddly enough, just after starting this thread I went ahead and bought a plot in the sim nextdoor

It was going for 3.9L/sqM. Plots in the newer sims are priced insanely high, and unless you're buying a good chunk of the sim, you'll soon enough have the lag, eyesore neighbors, and half finished builds that you're paying to avoid.

I don't do much to make money in this game, and I haven't run out yet, so really I only worry about land value in case I want to tier down or get out of the game altogether and recoup some of my $US investment. In the case of players like me, it's more in the Lindens' interest to let land values fall and discourage cashing out.

Ideally, I would like to see new land reach a fairly low, stable price, and more factors introduced to make unique or developed land desirable. This comes up often, but why can't land be set "For sale with all objects," and purchased as such? This would encourage quality content development and allow for cooperative purchasing of "landmarks" deemed worthy of preservation. It should also increase the number of builds tailored to their environment, as opposed to prefabs slapped down on a bulldozed slab.

I agree with you Chip. Tier amounts are probably the economic drivers here from LL's perspective. The lifetime value of those recurring revenue tier fees is where the money is, not any up-front payment (useful tho to mitigate immediate corporate expenses).

There are those who engage in land commerce, but the rest buy land for 1. prim count; 2. space (size of project or just breathable distance from neighbors). LL wants to make it easy to tier up, thus you need available land and affordable land. LL has probably concluded that people are willing to spread their costs over a long period of time in the form of tier payments, but not willing to put up a lot of cash up front.

Any newbie buying land because they think it will be an investment is just making a foolish and uneducated speculative play.

Hmm..

Well, the Lindens _are_ selling their land. There is not that much Linden land for sale atm, right?

Of cause, there is TONS of parcels that are for sale.. but not from LL. Land barons baught it up and sell it on. So, as far as LL is concerned, the land's been baught off their paws.

So.. as all linden land is sold, as someone is paying the tier for them, it is of cause time to get some new sims on the way. And if Land Barons buy them up again, too, the land is sold, and there will be even more servers.

Don't confuse LL land for sale with Land Baron land for sale...

Welcome to a Land Baron's nightmare, the land buyer's dream

*meow*
Leopard Loveless

If you bought land as a speculative venture, then you might have made what is commonly known as a "mistake". There was a time when land sold for L$1/m^2 with no intermediate resellers taking a profit.

I'd like to see proof of that, please.

It's my understanding that the lindens don't "buy back" lindens on any exchange service (GOM, IGE, or Anshecorp), never have, and never will.



So first you complain that the lindens don't react fast enough, and now you're complaining that when they DO act, it's somehow their fault the market doesn't work the way you want it to.

The lindens released a smorgasbord of land in order to quell rising land prices. It worked, as you are no longer paying $L20/m for land.




Much like going to a movie, eating out, going to a theme park, and a thousand other entertainment venues. I surely don't expect to recover my "losses" from seeing a movie by eBaying the ticket stub. I expect the same from SL.

IF you're here as a way to somehow return your investment potential and diversify your portfolio and whatever else, you're here for the wrong reason.

LF

I don't see how the Linden's keep devaluing land. When OPEC f''s with oil prices they do so by adjusting output. The Lindens have been steadly increasing production (i.e. never-ending rollout of land) yet prices continue to go up or remain mostly steady.

I don't agree with this never-ending rollout of land and I think they are not being player-friendly whit talk of a new continent. But, I don't put as much weight in their current (READ: CURRENT) influence on prices as some do around here. If the LL announced that they would not roll out anymore land for six months you would see prices bump higher for a couple weeks and then settle down to where they are now because of supply and demand.

The only things that would radically change pricing would be A) collective revolt on the buyers side (which won't happen as long as they are getting off playing Tringo and picking up hookers) B) Price fixing between a cartel of land owners C) One big landowner who shall remain nameless, dumps her holdings on the market (which I have no idea if she would do that or why but it would be fun to watch the resultant crash).

Perhaps Anshe's listening to you, Bruno: /120/9c/35903/1.html

I'd just like to point out that everyone's assuming that the new continent or whatever it is is going to be filled with the same kind of sims that currently make up the grid. But considering some of the hints given out already (that the new land is filled with prims, for instance, and that there are structures on it already), it seems not outlandish to assume that it will be somehow qualititively different from the current grid.

In which case, perhaps all this is moot. Or at least, things may be somewhat more complex than simply, "LL is rolling out a lot of new sims."

I'm not sure what bee you've got in your bonnet here Ardith. When I speak with dripping sarcasm that the Lindens sell their land for a pretty penny, I don't mean to suggest they shouldn't, or that they should somehow take all their profits entirely and only help tsunami victims, or that they should free me from tier. Nothing of the kind. It's very hard to follow arguments on forums, I know, and almost impossible, when you see someone you hate already, not to reach for your gun. But be assured that my point there about Linden valuation and sale of their land is to counter Chip's point which seems to suggest land shouldn't be a commodity, or that there is something inherently evil in those who wish to sell land. It should be a commodity, valued, and sold, because work goes into it. That's just the point.




Well they sure do reduce the cost of sims! They reduce the *resale value* of sims ensuring that a player-driven market NEVER fully develops, that they can ALWAYS keep it off balance. It's a wonder that people play and invest as much as they do given this harsh reality. By not letting players and their own transactions decide the value of land, and not sticking to their job, which is providing equitable server resources (not bumping new land to crappy servers after somebody has already bought it from them, or soon after), they are creating an endless socialism, and as we know from history, endless socialism always breaks down, sometimes with awful consequences for people.



I guess you don't follow the auctions? It's not just filled with land barons. There are plenty of people who bid to get smaller parcels. And I see people moving constantly, and complaining constantly, maybe because I buy and sell land and watch what happens on sims, and I buy and rent land and watch people come and go and hear all their stories. Moving two times or less is still a lot of mobility, facilitated by the fresh-fast-sim-bake the Lindens are always engaging in.

Should they stop doing that? Probably it's not in their interest. But I feel I've had a glimpse into the racket now -- get people to buy fresh fast sims, do nothing while they are griefed or filled with ugly builds, let them get mad and buy new sims. Hey, it's great work if you can get it.



Um...huh? Are you confusing me with someone else? I don't call for single-plot allocation. That would be silly and socialist. I'm not even sure giving the $512 first-land privilege makes sense, but I'm willing to debate it. Not sure where you are getting this.



I'm using the analogies of AC and TSO to make points and make the discussion comprehensable, not advocating that I or others should go play those dull games. You're ranting again as if you think I don't believe in a land market? But I do. I want it to be player-driven, rather than upset so often by the Lindens.



Why would we drastically limit supply? We just cease Linden supply, which is oversupplied, for a time. There is PLENTY of land unsold in SL. Go look on the map! Let it sell. Let those people who invested in it wholesale sell it, let the prices come up or down as we actually test demand for it. Let the economy become a more real economy based on people and their choices and values, instead of this game company running it as a state socialist experiment all the time. Land isn't overpriced because the barons paid too much -- it's important to get this straight. In fact, they got it for a song. They mark it up a lot because they have to pay tier on it, and within 30 days, and because they don't have much of a window for resale before the Lindens upset their apple cart by baking a new fresh sim. See? That's the point. If there is no fresh sims, then the unsold inventory of the barons becomes what there is to buy, and people will now take a second look. With no unfair competition from the Lindens oversupply machine, then the price will have to start coming down if people don't immediately seize it. If the unsold land is sitting surrounded by ugly builds etc we will see a beginning of a real grappling with the ugly-build problem, some extortionist demands, some fighting back, and just some normal wheeling and dealing as people settle down on their sims and get the kind of sim the residents on it want.

The reason the barons will lower the price is simple: they will want to sell that land. They charge too much for it, because they face too much competition from the Lindens. Remove the Lindens even for a week or two, with their new competitive sims, and the barons don't have to mark up as much. Don't worry about them losing their profit, they'll have plenty, after being at a song on the auction in most cases.

Study the auctions and how they move, don't just look at what you and your friends may have paid at the auction as an end-user's price for land you really wanted.



Geez, you sure have read me wrong. I just helped to put up an entire village of weird, moon-like Jai Nomad homes, a far, far cry from your fishing 512. I don't believe in a world filled with little fishing 512s. That's silly. I will speak in defense of those who do, they include my customers. I will speak in defense of those who don't, they are my customers, too. People should have freedom on their land, but they need have more consequences for their lack of consideration of their neighbours. Yes, if you stopped the leeching away of unhappy people due to bad builds, you might start to see a real player-based solution to the problem of bad builds, by which I don't mean merely newbie, incompetent, or unsightly builds, but by which I mean viewblocking, griefing, extortionist builds.

As there are once again people posting outrageous suggestions that Linden Lab should slow down the release of land let me say once again the following:

1) Linden Lab makes more money the more tier fees are paid.

2) The average players are best served by providing access to as much land as they want.

3) Problems such as lag, crowding, fights over territory and the like are ameliorated by increasing the supply of land, not by limiting it.

4) Land is not a free market. Linden Lab has total control over the supply.

5) Land tier fees are so high that holding unused land for any reason is a money-losing prospect. Land is there for use, not as an investment.

Linden Lab has just two reasons that I can see for maintaining any sort of scarcity on land.

1) It provides a game that keeps people interested in land.

2) It gives them a means of predicting whether the growth in the supply of land is getting too far out ahead of the demand.

Land resellers get to take advantage of this system, but that by no means suggests they are entitled to any security in profit-making. Don't mistake a niche for the entire ecosystem. And DON'T mistake "land" for Real Estate.

Ehhehehe... I swear, my name preceeds me everywhere I go. '

"Outrageous." Wow! Suggesting the earth is flat is outrageous. A desire to see a slow down in the amount of land rolled out by LL is more along the lines of a difference of opinion.



Please explain this one to us. Is it somehow better if every potential land buyer had an option to buy any form of land mass concievable by human-kind? So if 80% of the players wanted snow with one side being a river the world would be a better place for Linden to make sure those 80% could each have snow and a riverfront?



I agree with this point except I would be concerned that problems such as lag will continue to be ignored if LL has the mindset that rolling out more land will make the problem go away.



Going back to your initial comment, this is outrageous. Land is a free market. Unless LL changes the rules there is a ton of land that is completely free to sell back and forth. They do have control over the supply which is what we are debating.



With all due respect, what you consider to be so high and what I consider to be so high may be two different things. If you consider them to be too high, I would think you would be on-board with the thinking that LL needs to place more value on the overall availability of land by not rolling out so much of it.

It takes stepping out of the real estate market and back into the webspace paradigm. If you're renting server resources to someone (and that is what LL is actually doing), how does it serve your customer if you can't supply them with the amount they want, but instead insist they compete with half a dozen professional resellers for it?

Your average SL players are going to be happiest if they are in fact able to get land in the size and configuration they want, yes.

In this sense, diamonds are a free market. You can freely buy and sell any diamonds that are available on the market. But virtually all of the new supply is tightly controlled by the DeBeers cartel. I certainly wouldn't call that a free market in the classic sense.

Actually if I recall correctly the diamond resale market is non-applicable; used diamonds have near-zero market value (due to the artificial scarcity of new ones).

Sorry, back to on-topic please.

I'm not going to rehash any of your other points, as they're poorly reasoned opinions. However, this is a demonstrable lie. If you'd bothered to read the section of your original post, which I conveniently quoted for just this circumstance, you'd see that you do, in fact, advocate just such a thing. I'll quote it one more time, though.



But prevaricate all you want. As far as I'm concerned, you're nothing more than a duplicitous Stalin Jr.

I sorta see your point but please expalin what you consider to be "the classic sense."

My definition is a market unencumbered with layer upon layer of regulation -- which we have here. I'm probably being simplistic but my point is that even though LL controls the output of land we are all still equally able to buy and sell as we please. In this discussion whether or not we have this ability (or LL's supposed control) is a moot point. That was the only point I was trying to make when replying to the poster.

So youre basically calling anyone you do business with a fool. For everytime you sell
high, there ofcourse has to be someone who is buying high from you. The same when
you buy low. On second thought this logic falls right in line with all your other posts.

A market in which production is controlled by a monopoly or cartel -- such as Standard Oil back in the day, the DeBeers diamond cartel, or OPEC (especially at their height in the 70s) -- may be a completely free market in the sense that there may be no government controls.

However, such a market does not obey the normal rules of a free market in the sense that price is governed by the interaction of various producers and consumers following the laws of supply and demand. Rather, price is governed largely by the supply that the controlling producer chooses to release into the market.

The difference between OPEC and the Lindens' control of the land market is that instead of keeping supply artificially low to keep the prices high, they are keeping supply relatively high so that land is relatively affordable and more people will buy land and pay tiering fees.

Failing to take into account the differences between a monopoly-determined market and a normal free market can lead to serious mistakes in business strategy.

So what's going on with the New Continent?

Why is the "Land Stats" showing the Trailing 7 day land sales always showing the same numbers day after day?

Why are land prices going down and down and down?

Why is there so much land for sale?

Is the announcment about a huge glut of land coming, hurting the land economy? Is the announcement going to just sit there, so we all just run around not knowing what's going on?

The parallels between SL and RL are fascinating. Amazing, really. Its quite a school.

But keep in mind at all times: In SL, there is a GOD. GOD is all-powerful.

I think comparing Linden to Government is not really apt -- instead, compare Linden to GOD. Some of the discussions here should really be about religion instead of economics.

GOD is watching over you. Pray to your GOD. Be true to your monthly tithe. Obey the commandments or be shunned. Cower before the mighty presense.

Buster

What does a dyslexic agnostic insomiac do? Lies awake at night wondering if there really is a dog.

Amen.