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Dreamland and the Anshe lands

Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
05-31-2005 07:44
Where are the actual victims? I think there is a lot of inventing of problems.

Did this person who seemed not to have been fully briefed actually suffer a loss? Could we clarify that?
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PetGirl Bergman
Fellow Creature:-)
Join date: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,414
05-31-2005 07:52
The building are still in Dreamland. .:-))))
Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
05-31-2005 08:00
From: John Turnbull
I'm a builder and am working on a custom home for a client who recently bought in Dreamland. I was there surveying the land while the lady bought it. The people who sold the lady the land claimed to be representative of Anshe Chung. There are extra rules to this sim and the lady was not informed of them untill hours after the sale.


There are the victims, Prok. Just because this person may not have “suffered a loss” does not mean that a sour taste was not left in their mouth. That could lead to a loss to the entire SL community. BTW, the community is SL as a whole, everyone in SL is part of the SL community.

This has brought to the forefront an issue that needs to be discussed. If you where relatively new to SL and someone told you about this "great land deal” then after you bought the land, you find out that there is more rules to the land that you did not know about, who is ultimately responsible for the mis (dis) communication? I will admit that I know very little about how this new private island leasing works, but from what I read, anyone at any time can transfer the land at any price to anyone. This could lead to people feeling like they got the short end of the stick.
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From: Cristiano Midnight
This forum is weird.
Bruno Buckenburger
Registered User
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 464
05-31-2005 08:02
From: PetGirl Bergman
About 200 years ago we had the Inquisition plus the power full men in Church and the smal narrow minded people in the society haunted all ”witches” (aka powerful women)...

I feel more and more - sadly - that its not over yet....


Yes we have grey weather today in Sweden.. . bläääää



Ha ha ha!!!! You're kidding, right? I don't think you fully appreciate how comments such as yours do more harm to the so-called "women's movement" (powerful or otherwise). The issue is land leasing vs. ownership but you only see gender. Too f'ing funny.
PetGirl Bergman
Fellow Creature:-)
Join date: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,414
05-31-2005 08:03
You are welcome.. nice that people can laugh to.. in SL... to...
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
05-31-2005 08:05
From: Dnate Mars
There are the victims, Prok. Just because this person may not have “suffered a loss” does not mean that a sour taste was not left in their mouth. That could lead to a loss to the entire SL community. BTW, the community is SL as a whole, everyone in SL is part of the SL community.

This has brought to the forefront an issue that needs to be discussed. If you where relatively new to SL and someone told you about this "great land deal” then after you bought the land, you find out that there is more rules to the land that you did not know about, who is ultimately responsible for the mis (dis) communication? I will admit that I know very little about how this new private island leasing works, but from what I read, anyone at any time can transfer the land at any price to anyone. This could lead to people feeling like they got the short end of the stick.

The problem is just the opposite, they can't. Only the owner can deed the land to a group, and then reclaim it to deed to another group. I am assuming the transfer here is taking place simply by one tenant inviting the new tenant as an officer to the group that the land is deeded to.
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PetGirl Bergman
Fellow Creature:-)
Join date: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,414
05-31-2005 08:16
How does other do al this that own or start Sims for buying or rent out parts???


Ansche are for sure not alone..



???????????
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
05-31-2005 08:19
From: PetGirl Bergman
How does other do al this that own or start Sims for buying or rent out parts???


Ansche are for sure not alone..



???????????

Well I can only speak for myself. The tenants are not obilgated to transfer their tenancy. If they wished to end the tenancy, they would simply leave, I would reclaim the land from group, and then make it available for the next tenant who wishes to rent it.
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
05-31-2005 08:31
From: Hiro Queso
The problem is just the opposite, they can't. Only the owner can deed the land to a group, and then reclaim it to deed to another group. I am assuming the transfer here is taking place simply by one tenant inviting the new tenant as an officer to the group that the land is deeded to.


So only the owner of the island can redeed the land, not the current owner, or group? This will for the most part shift the responsibility to the island owner, unless like you said, they transferred the entire group with land. I am not sure how this would work, unless it was a group of friends, or someone with enough alts to keep the group, but that could raise other issues too.

This is the part that I still don't have a clear understanding on:

From: Anshe Chung
The land that changed hands was not owned by me, but by a resident.

If the land was not owned by Anshe, then was it a mainland sim? How did the land get transferred if Anshe is needed to be there for the transfer? If she was there, would it not been at this point that Anshe would have told the rules of the land? Maybe I am missing something, but I am even more confused now then when I started.
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From: Cristiano Midnight
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
05-31-2005 08:36
Dnate,

There's a lot of free-floating hatred of Anshe out there because she epitomizes the land owning business. Let's not forget the infamous statement from Robin Linden, "Anshe is a symbol for many of what is wrong with the game".

And yes, I do feel there's a gender issue involved here because most of the free-floating hatred rests on her, and not on other land barons of the opposite gender some of the same size roughly, with even more visibility.

Your notion that the "entire SL community" suffered seems skewed to me. On balance, the "entire SL community" -- if you mean the numeric total of SL -- is well-served by these private islands. Scores of people have moved to them and have much better lives. I have my own concerns about gated communities and overly restrictive rules, but the point is, most people do better by giving up some of their freedom to a strong ruler and they do live better, that's the sad but true fact. There are many happy stories. So you can't discount them if you're going to play this game of "the community this" and "the community that" -- the happy people are the majority of this community, with the most stake in it.

You say "everyone" is part of the SL community but you're willing to discount the scores of testimonies of a positive nature -- mine included -- about what the actual process is like of buying and living in Ansheland. Instead, you're taking this very dubious testimony from someone with a beef whose roots are not entirely clear (not sure why a contracted builder has to become involved in a land ownership issue unrelated to him.)

From: someone
This has brought to the forefront an issue that needs to be discussed. If you where relatively new to SL and someone told you about this "great land deal” then after you bought the land, you find out that there is more rules to the land that you did not know about, who is ultimately responsible for the mis (dis) communication?


I would say the people themselves. They didn't read notecards, didn't get the story, and missed about a dozen red flags.

I know how this can happen. I can't tell you how many times I've had to explain until I'm blue in the face what a prim is, and how to count it. I have basic explanation cards on all my rental boxes, and additional explanation cards, and trust me, it's never, never enough even with people who are not so new.

But you will always get that one person in 20 or 100 who understands it differently, sometimes just because of their contrarian nature. At least once a month, I'll get somebody totally pissed off because I've "stolen their stuff";(their prims automatically returned on autoreturn because they didn't set their prims to the group) or I've "heavily restricted them" (a lot only has so many prims it can hold) or I've done some other "evil thing" when all I've done is mark a plot of 1024, which automatically only has 234 prims on it, and rented it to them with a house on it that they must include in that prim count (these basic facts can sometimes be very hard to grasp, I know). You can inform people out the wazoo. You can repeat something 10 times for new people to be helpful. But there will also be that one who doesn't get it and goes into entitlement mode and complaint mode.

That's why I'm for having in-game dispute resolution centers and/or mechanisms instead of having people blow off some individual person dispute on the forums. I think forums exposure of a dispute should only be saved for really egregious examples where you've tried all other remedies, i.e. I'm sure if these parties had simply contacted the buyers and Anshe they'd all have the thing resolved by now.

As Anshe noted, the person in question chose *not* to keep drama-fying these episode, it's only the builder, who is actually not a directly interested party.

From: someone
I will admit that I know very little about how this new private island leasing works, but from what I read, anyone at any time can transfer the land at any price to anyone. This could lead to people feeling like they got the short end of the stick.


You cannot transfer the land at any time to any person. The deeding of the land requires Anshe or the other owners transferring the deed to a new group with you as officer and her at least temporarily as officer. So this can't happen. If a person makes a buyer a member of their group, then I suppose they could have an understanding with them that they have access to the land. But it still requires Anshe to recognize it *and accept tier payments from that individual*.

THE TIER PAYMENT HAS TO BE SWITCHED FROM ONE OWNER TO ANOTHER IN A TRANSFER.

That's what you all keep forgetting. Land that you buy on a private sim from a dealer in this fashion REQUIRES TIER. This person who assumed the ownership would have to be agreeing to pay tier, and be set up on Anshe's web site to pay tier directly to her, not Linden Labs. It's at that level, as they are poised over Anshe's website trying to figure out how to pay her tier, that they can realize this isn't Linden Land, it has more restrictions, and they can back out.

That's why all these cries of foul simply don't ring true for me. There are a number of check gates on this process that tell you all along the way that you are not buying Linden Land:

-- land is not right-clickable to buy
-- land cannot be set to sale by you after you have the deed
-- land cannot be terraformed -- you get an error message if you attempt
-- you can name land and return prims only
-- the group ownership you have of the land is merely an access, as your own paid tier to Linden lands is NOT in that group covering that land, it's Anshe's group tier covering it
-- you must pay tier to Anshe by PayPal

Honestly, with all these features DIFFERENT from Linden Land , if somebody assuming a long-term purchased deed of land in a private island thinks they have something like Linden land, it's because they haven't paid attention. I understand that, and I'm for providing as much explanation as possible, and for having them ask as many questions as they need to on it.
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
05-31-2005 08:49
From: Prokofy Neva

Your notion that the "entire SL community" suffered seems skewed to me. On balance, the "entire SL community" -- if you mean the numeric total of SL -- is well-served by these private islands. Scores of people have moved to them and have much better lives. I have my own concerns about gated communities and overly restrictive rules, but the point is, most people do better by giving up some of their freedom to a strong ruler and they do live better, that's the sad but true fact. There are many happy stories. So you can't discount them if you're going to play this game of "the community this" and "the community that" -- the happy people are the majority of this community, with the most stake in it.

You say "everyone" is part of the SL community but you're willing to discount the scores of testimonies of a positive nature -- mine included -- about what the actual process is like of buying and living in Ansheland. Instead, you're taking this very dubious testimony from someone with a beef whose roots are not entirely clear (not sure why a contracted builder has to become involved in a land ownership issue unrelated to him.)


I think you may have misunderstood me. I am all for private islands and the deeding that goes with it. I think this is a great idea to have even less Linden control over SL. I am trying to understand what you can and cannot do with the leased land. I am more clear on what the limitations of this land is now.

What I was worried about, is newer people not knowing the rules getting ripped off, and feeling that SL is no longer worth playing. That would be a loss to the SL community. Most every person we lose is a loss to the comminity.

I do wish I had more facts on this case. Maybe Anshe could tell us what she meant by:
From: Anshe Chung
The land that changed hands was not owned by me, but by a resident.
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From: Cristiano Midnight
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
05-31-2005 09:03
From: someone
What I was worried about, is newer people not knowing the rules getting ripped off, and feeling that SL is no longer worth playing. That would be a loss to the SL community. Most every person we lose is a loss to the comminity.



Trust me, more people have quit over the technical complexity, the crashes and performance issues, and the griefing/ugly builds issue that have quit over some sense of being "ripped off" by the private islands. We don't have a single case, really.

From: someone

I do wish I had more facts on this case. Maybe Anshe could tell us what she meant by:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anshe Chung
The land that changed hands was not owned by me, but by a resident.


Anshe has chosen to use the word "ownership" to describe her deeding of parcels on a private island. Hiro Queso uses the word "deed" as does the game literature itself, and the Lindens. The fact is, you buy an island, you own it as a whole, and you cannot slice off pieces of it and sell it off. That's the given rule when you buy it. But in the most recent patch, tools were added to make it possible to deed the parcels to other groups to let them have access to the land with rentals and purchase of long-term deeds, which has to be understood as access to land, but not total ownership as you have on the mainland grid (and even there, as we all realize, there's no such thing as total ownership when you have to keep paying maintenance on it to the Lindens, etc.)

One person bought from Anshe, paid her tier, paid her an upfront cost. They then wanted out, and sold it to another person -- they are selling their long-term paid deeded access to Anshe's private island sim. That means the tier payment has to be switched, the cost has to be recouped or even added to, etc. So that's what Anshe means, her customer sold to another customer, but it says in her literature that while you can sell the deeds freely on the open market in terms of advertising etc you have to get the new buyer to abide by the rules.

Think of it like a Manhattan co-op apartment. You buy it and sell it. The new owner can't have dogs either, if your original landlord who sold it to you had a rule you can't have dogs.
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Anshe Chung
Business Girl
Join date: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 1,615
05-31-2005 12:30
From: Dnate Mars
What I was worried about, is newer people not knowing the rules getting ripped off, and feeling that SL is no longer worth playing. That would be a loss to the SL community. Most every person we lose is a loss to the comminity.

I do wish I had more facts on this case. Maybe Anshe could tell us what she meant by:


I agree that new people getting ripped off by land sellers or content sellers is one problem in Second Life. This is why I personally try my best to educate people and be helpful when I have chance.

However, this problem is a general problem. All the time newbies buy something only to have to find out later that there is some problems with what they bought. How many newbies see those new and beautiful sims Linden Lab releases with nice landscapes, forests and low lag, pay much money on auctions or when buying from another player and then.... what? Two weeks later they might experience malls, clubs, the forest being deleted by other residents and lag hitting the sim. Who warned them? Who is responsible?

It is true that in Dreamland residents own land as much as they do on mainland. The main difference is that you do so within our system and land ownership is secured by ANSHECHUNG.COM instead of by Linden Lab directly. And the process of transfering one land deed is different. It can be done between residents without my interference by transfering land group. To transfer to one different group you need my assistance. This is due to limitation of the software Linden Lab provides.

But remind you, there is also a lot of Linden Land that you can not sell automatically. You need manual help from Linden staff to do so and are even charged service fee in US$. I am talking about buying/selling private island sims. Does this mean you rent one sim instead of owning it just because when you sell you have to ask the concierge to transfer the ownership?

What you see here is residents building one real alternative to the mainland, the Second Life world as you knew it before. We try provide diversity and additional options. You see resident run communities emerging, early forms of self-governance and one step towards more choice and emancipation from Governor Linden. This is incredibly hard, considering that we can not add changes to the software or prevent Linden Lab do things like the recent nerfing of our land advertising ability. If you want choice, competition and alternatives to normal "Linden land" you should support us. Singling us out as "soft target" over issues that apply same way to Linden land is not very helpful.

Things you could do to help improve situation:

o Request Linden Lab to add features that allow non-mainland residents to sell land deeds to other residents automatically

o Request Linden Lab to allow us to add information like zoning rules and other terms and conditions directly to the land purchase dialogue

o Request Linden Lab to also use this new feature to improve land purchase on mainland by automatically warning newbies of restrictions of PG land, land in zoned mainland sims etc.

Dreamland is very popular now, many people enjoy and more people coming daily. There is also other exciting regions coming up by other groups with their own rules and cultures. This is one decisive moment for Second Life as one platform now. The community at large need encourage Linden Lab to endorse this and make one step forward, not backwards.
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Catherine Cotton
Tis Elfin
Join date: 2 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,001
05-31-2005 13:05
From: Anshe Chung



Things you could do to help improve situation:

o Request Linden Lab to add features that allow non-mainland residents to sell land deeds to other residents automatically

o Request Linden Lab to allow us to add information like zoning rules and other terms and conditions directly to the land purchase dialogue

o Request Linden Lab to also use this new feature to improve land purchase on mainland by automatically warning newbies of restrictions of PG land, land in zoned mainland sims etc.

Dreamland is very popular now, many people enjoy and more people coming daily. There is also other exciting regions coming up by other groups with their own rules and cultures. This is one decisive moment for Second Life as one platform now. The community at large need encourage Linden Lab to endorse this and make one step forward, not backwards.


NO they removed those features for a damn good reason Anshe! Stop begging ppl to see things your way. What's done is done and I for one am proud of LL for taking a stand against ppl abusing the system!

Catherine
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Toy LaFollette
I eat paintchips
Join date: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,359
05-31-2005 13:30
all the deeding adds is another layer..... let's face it ONLY the person who paid for the Island may sell it as a whole Island all that is happening is an additional layer is added,by agreeing to any deed or lease is simple that you do not own it
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Games Prototype
Force Recon Sniper
Join date: 4 Aug 2004
Posts: 159
05-31-2005 13:32
From: Jesse Linden
Please remember, the forums are a public area for the Second Life community’s use. Individuals who have a dispute with each other have other channels of communication to discuss their differences or communicate – private messaging, IM within Second Life, or chatting within Second Life. Also, threads that are addressed to a single individual or group are inappropriate on the forums, this includes slander or "naming names" in a posts title, starting polls about a particular resident or group, etc.


You know what Jesse, I agree with you, but we obviously have a problem here. I have seen numerous complaints threads all over these forums about the same exact thing. In almost every thread, it has been shot down and closed out by a linden. If these threads are bashing specific groups or individuals, maybe there is a very big problem with those who are being attacked by a vast majority of people new and old. The reason people post these threads is in hopes that a Linden will read it and take some action in the case being stated. Instead, they are yelled at and shut down by the very people they are asking to help them. If you havn't noticed, these issues being discussed are causing people to leave SL, and maybe LL doesn't even care if people leave or not. I'm just saying that maybe instead of shutting people down for their complaints you should listen to them for once, and get something done about it so the complaints stop being posted. Kill the problem at the roots instead of just trimming them every day.
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
05-31-2005 14:00
From: someone
You know what Jesse, I agree with you, but we obviously have a problem here. I have seen numerous complaints threads all over these forums about the same exact thing. In almost every thread, it has been shot down and closed out by a linden. If these threads are bashing specific groups or individuals, maybe there is a very big problem with those who are being attacked by a vast majority of people new and old. The reason people post these threads is in hopes that a Linden will read it and take some action in the case being stated. Instead, they are yelled at and shut down by the very people they are asking to help them. If you havn't noticed, these issues being discussed are causing people to leave SL, and maybe LL doesn't even care if people leave or not. I'm just saying that maybe instead of shutting people down for their complaints you should listen to them for once, and get something done about it so the complaints stop being posted. Kill the problem at the roots instead of just trimming them every day.
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I still don't get why Jesse didn't close this thread from the get-go since it was an attack on an individual and involving a personal dispute, just as he said at the get-go. But ours is not to reason why...

Obviously, he thought it was some "legitimate complaint" that "needed to be aired by the community."

I'd tend to think it isn't, because I still don't see any victim here in this drama, I see someone making a complaint they feel will find an audience, and provide some reputation-enhancing to boot by bonding with the anti-Anshe set.

No one left Second Life because of a private island deeding arrangement that went sour. Could we please provide an *example* of even one person who did that???

That's why to imply that "people are leaving SL" over this is wrong. They aren't. They didn't. They're still here.

I wish they had a section of the forum, or better yet, a lot in-game, called Dispute Resolution Center where these things could be addressed far from the posturing and rep-enhancement game that they develop into on the forums.

Not to mention the witch-hunts and mob-justice killings. If anything, THAT is what makes people leave.
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Catherine Cotton
Tis Elfin
Join date: 2 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,001
05-31-2005 14:04
From: Prokofy Neva
I still don't get why Jesse didn't close this thread from the get-go since it was an attack on an individual and involving a personal dispute, just as he said at the get-go. But ours is not to reason why...

Obviously, he thought it was some "legitimate complaint" that "needed to be aired by the community."

I'd tend to think it isn't, because I still don't see any victim here in this drama, I see someone making a complaint they feel will find an audience, and provide some reputation-enhancing to boot by bonding with the anti-Anshe set.

No one left Second Life because of a private island deeding arrangement that went sour. Could we please provide an *example* of even one person who did that???

That's why to imply that "people are leaving SL" over this is wrong. They aren't. They didn't. They're still here.

I wish they had a section of the forum, or better yet, a lot in-game, called Dispute Resolution Center where these things could be addressed far from the posturing and rep-enhancement game that they develop into on the forums.

Not to mention the witch-hunts and mob-justice killings. If anything, THAT is what makes people leave.



I find your post ironic at best. Don't you know Anshe is FIC???
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
05-31-2005 14:13
Please note that I am not attacking anyone. I am seeing what could be issues. That said, here are my thoughts.

From: Anshe Chung

However, this problem is a general problem. All the time newbies buy something only to have to find out later that there is some problems with what they bought. How many newbies see those new and beautiful sims Linden Lab releases with nice landscapes, forests and low lag, pay much money on auctions or when buying from another player and then.... what? Two weeks later they might experience malls, clubs, the forest being deleted by other residents and lag hitting the sim. Who warned them? Who is responsible?


I think this comparison is a little bit of a stretch. You are showing the advantages of leasing, not a "problem."

From: Anshe Chung
It is true that in Dreamland residents own land as much as they do on mainland. The main difference is that you do so within our system and land ownership is secured by ANSHECHUNG.COM instead of by Linden Lab directly. And the process of transferring one land deed is different. It can be done between residents without my interference by transferring land group. To transfer to one different group you need my assistance. This is due to limitation of the software Linden Lab provides.


Unless you own the server and can run even if LL is no more, then you cannot claim that LL has no direct control. LL still has the final say in everything that happens, even on a private island.

From: Anshe Chung
But remind you, there is also a lot of Linden Land that you can not sell automatically. You need manual help from Linden staff to do so and are even charged service fee in US$. I am talking about buying/selling private island sims. Does this mean you rent one sim instead of owning it just because when you sell you have to ask the concierge to transfer the ownership?


I do not view a private island as anywhere need equal to being able to buy and lease land. An island is meant to be used as a single item. That is why it is set up the way it is. The deeding was set up to allow people to allow other full control over a limited area of an island.

From: Anshe Chung

What you see here is residents building one real alternative to the mainland, the Second Life world as you knew it before. We try provide diversity and additional options. You see resident run communities emerging, early forms of self-governance and one step towards more choice and emancipation from Governor Linden. This is incredibly hard, considering that we can not add changes to the software or prevent Linden Lab do things like the recent nerfing of our land advertising ability. If you want choice, competition and alternatives to normal "Linden land" you should support us. Singling us out as "soft target" over issues that apply same way to Linden land is not very helpful.


Again I am not attacking you or your business. I think the private island is a great idea. I think it is a great way to have player run governments. I 100% support private island deeding!

From: Anshe Chung
Request Linden Lab to add features that allow non-mainland residents to sell land deeds to other residents automatically


No, I disagree with this. You as an island owner need to be sure that the next owner of your land 100% understands what they are getting into. They will have to set up a payment plan and other such things. The island owner NEEDS to be there to be sure of this taking place. If not, how can you prevent someone from lying to someone and saying that they do not need to pay you every month?

From: someone
Request Linden Lab to allow us to add information like zoning rules and other terms and conditions directly to the land purchase dialogue


I agree 100%

From: someone

Request Linden Lab to also use this new feature to improve land purchase on mainland by automatically warning newbies of restrictions of PG land, land in zoned mainland sims etc.


Zoned mainland sims, I agree, the PG part is a little overkill. It is all explained in the TOS and the CS.
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From: Cristiano Midnight
This forum is weird.
Anshe Chung
Business Girl
Join date: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 1,615
05-31-2005 14:14
From: Catherine Cotton
I find your post ironic at best. Don't you know Anshe is FIC???


I am not.
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
05-31-2005 14:19
From: Prokofy Neva

I'd tend to think it isn't, because I still don't see any victim here in this drama, I see someone making a complaint they feel will find an audience, and provide some reputation-enhancing to boot by bonding with the anti-Anshe set.

No one left Second Life because of a private island deeding arrangement that went sour. Could we please provide an *example* of even one person who did that???

That's why to imply that "people are leaving SL" over this is wrong. They aren't. They didn't. They're still here.


I am not here to be anti anything. I am seeing what COULD BE AN ISSUE. It is better that we look at what is to be, and have a discussion about what is being brought up. I have a much better understanding of how island deeding works now. The forums have done that for me. I know you think that nothing is an issue unless there already is a victim. I would love to be able to prevent a victim that could be, than just react to what has happened. Not everything is anti something. Sometimes people disagree with other's positions.
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From: Cristiano Midnight
This forum is weird.
Anshe Chung
Business Girl
Join date: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 1,615
05-31-2005 14:42
From: Dnate Mars
I am not here to be anti anything. I am seeing what COULD BE AN ISSUE. It is better that we look at what is to be, and have a discussion about what is being brought up. I have a much better understanding of how island deeding works now. The forums have done that for me. I know you think that nothing is an issue unless there already is a victim. I would love to be able to prevent a victim that could be, than just react to what has happened. Not everything is anti something. Sometimes people disagree with other's positions.


That is fine. But you don't need to go to island sims to find people selling water was vine. The issue of dishonest sellers and careless buyers is one very general issue and should be discussed in wider context. With the way people have argued here you could argue all of Second Life into obliteration. Because almost every argument brought up could also applied to the system at large.
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
05-31-2005 14:53
From: Anshe Chung
That is fine. But you don't need to go to island sims to find people selling water was vine. The issue of dishonest sellers and careless buyers is one very general issue and should be discussed in wider context. With the way people have argued here you could argue all of Second Life into obliteration. Because almost every argument brought up could also applied to the system at large.


I agree with you. I do, however, see islands as a special case. With mainland land everything is done mostly automatic. You have a CC on file that will get billed as it is needed. I see islands as more like group land, but much more control. There needs to be an outside agreement on how the land is paid for. Some people will just take tier donations, plus an upfront fee, some may want to have just the tier payment paid right to them, some may want to do it yet another way. It is really upto the owners to deside on how they lease their land. This tread is about islands and deeding, and what can (maybe even has) gone wrong. If someone wanted to have a new thread about buyers and sellers in the mainland, I would be all for it. I think that we need to try to keep somewhat of a narrow issue in this thread.
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From: Cristiano Midnight
This forum is weird.
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
05-31-2005 14:55
I would have to agree with Anshe that people buying pristine wilderness land in a brand-new sim as newbies are getting led down the garden path. They just have no idea that most of what they see will be crapped up within weeks, if not deliberately by griefers, then not consciously by their fellow newbies. It's a real crap shoot.

Anshe is not FIC.


I don't think that we need to have victims before "something is done" but I feel as if I'm just shouting into a windstorm here.

I've made more than cogent arguments about how this land differs, how red flags come up immediately, and how, even without any "dialogue box" you have plenty to warn you. Let me rehearse it again, and put it in bold, and let's see if this doesn't stick this time:

-- notecards on the very for-sale signs on the land explain the terms
-- land is not right-clickable to buy
-- land cannot be set to sale by you after you have the deed
-- land cannot be terraformed -- you get an error message if you attempt
-- you can name land and return prims only
-- the group ownership you have of the land is merely an access, as your own paid tier to Linden lands is NOT in that group covering that land, it's Anshe's group tier covering it
-- you must pay tier to Anshe by PayPal
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Catherine Cotton
Tis Elfin
Join date: 2 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,001
05-31-2005 16:48
the lindens changed the rules in 1.6.5


Apparently the lindens already ruled on this.

Let the lindens be, this may be our world but they are the government.

Cat

"you must pay tier to Anshe by PayPal"

I think this thread should be moved to advertizing forum.
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