Dreamland and the Anshe lands

I'm a builder and am working on a custom home for a client who recently bought in Dreamland. I was there surveying the land while the lady bought it. The people who sold the lady the land claimed to be representative of Anshe Chung. There are extra rules to this sim and the lady was not informed of them untill hours after the sale.

Rule such as:

o You have to agree and abide to zoning rules and ANSHECHUNG.COM management

o You can currently not list your land for sale in the land finder and you need help from sim management to transfer land to a new owner


clearly based on the following, also as above an excerpt the the dream land FAQ Anshe is very much a part of this.

4. Whom can I ask for support?
For general support you can still contact Linden Lab liasons. For support concerning Dreamland specific issues such as land sales, zoning rules etc. you can contact the ANSHECHUNG.COM liason team.

5. Can I buy land in Dreamland?
You can purchase deeds for land in Dreamland. This gives you full control of your land, such as changing the name of the land, planting trees, banning people, changing media URLs and so on. Any agreements are solely between you and ANSHECHUNG.COM and not subject to supervision or enforcement by Linden Lab.

6. How do I buy land?
I. Pay the purchase price to the current land owner
II. Let the current land owner inform Anshe Chung of the ownership change
III. Subscribe land tier on ANSHECHUNG.COM
IV. Create a group and (temporarily) invite Anshe Chung as officer. She will then perform the ownership transfer of the land deed.

Since none of this was mentioned before the sale this is not only clearly unfair but I would suspect against state and federal law which SL is bound by. If nothing else it's highly imoral.

When Anshe approached me about the building we were making and had begun as soon as the sale was final (keep in mind we didn't get the faq or zoning infor till hours laters)
she went as far as to claim no relationship to the people who made the sale and further stated she had nothing to do with it. Again I will quote from the FAQ.

o You pay land use tax to ANSHECHUNG.COM instead of Linden Lab

o You can enjoy additional support and value added services available exclusively to Dreamland residents

8. What powers does ANSHECHUNG.COM staff have over my land?
While the land deed is in your possession ANSHECHUNG.COM staff have no access to any functions of your land. You are even able to ban them if you want absolute privacy. Only Anshe herself, but none of the ANSHECHUNG.COM liasons, has the power to reclaim land in extraordinary circumstances or ban avatars from the continent. This is necessary as a last resort to enforce zoning rules and ensure tier payments are made.

Anshe has the power to take back your land yet denies any responsability to her customers.

This is reprenhesible and needs to be dealt with. Contact the Lindens about getting your money back, and edit the post to remove the names and the chatlog. No matter how unjust the treatment may have been, naming names and posting chat logs are both against the forum TOS.

Please remember, the forums are a public area for the Second Life community’s use. Individuals who have a dispute with each other have other channels of communication to discuss their differences or communicate – private messaging, IM within Second Life, or chatting within Second Life. Also, threads that are addressed to a single individual or group are inappropriate on the forums, this includes slander or "naming names" in a posts title, starting polls about a particular resident or group, etc.

Although your warning is appropriate to avoid possible abuse later in the thread, Jesse, I am glad you decided to let this post stand except for the copy of chat.

I thnk that with a major new development such as this new way of offering, and holding, land, it is vital that people's experience with it can be openly discussed. Personally I think that a forum area could well be set aside for the discussion of issues and experiences in connection with the new land leases and landlord controlled communities, to help people to understand both the theory and the practice of these potentially confusing offers. Which however, correctly presented, I regard as potentially a positive and exciting development.

John. Your report is exactly what I have been predicting and fearing, not because people are malicious or idle, but because they are overworked or tired, or because a resident who had something explained to him carefully may not be clear enough, or motivated enough, to explain it carefully to the next person to whom he sells on his lease.

I have been almost a lone voice crying in the wilderness in this, but I have prepared a notecard (not well received) intended to educate potential participants, and help them to avoid what you describe. I offer you my notecard in my next posting below.

__________________________________________________ ______

Land Leasing Pros and Cons - or when is a Sale Not a Sale ?

Some residents may offer to "sell you land" which they "own" when in fact they are selling not land, but a transferable (resellable) rental agreement or lease giving the right to occupy land belonging to a landlord, who is another resident. These leases are often priced just below normal land value, and can appear misleadingly similar. You may be offered one of these by the landlord himself, who will hopefully be quite careful to explain the implications to you. But you may be offered it by the present leaseholder, who needs you to replace him and can normally charge you any "price" he likes. His communication skills may not be quite so good, or he may not fully understand it himself. He might even prefer to let you be confused.

If you are to consider this you need to be careful to understand the advantages and disadvantages of occupying land in this way. Detailed pros and cons are laid out below.

The big disadvantage: The Lindens have warned that you are entirely reliant on your landlord's honesty and continued presence in the game. He can evict you (or everyone) without compensation at any moment, so that you may lose your "purchase price", and LL have stated they will not intervene, or discipline him in any way. The lease is currently a private non-enforceable agreement between you and him. No such fraud has yet occurred, but the potential is there. There may be other risks associated with him falling ill, failing to make his payments to SL, or simply losing interest.

The big advantage: Your landlord may promise to act as a private police force, enforcing standards of behaviour and building quality in a way which LL will not. He will normally have a set of rules and guidelines which you and everyone else must obey on peril of land forfeiture. These "private sims" can look very nice, can be free of malls, clubs, and greifers, and can have attractive "themes".

Other aspects to consider are: Acquiring a plot, and transferring it to others, requires the attendance of the landlord, who alone has the power to do these things. You have to form a group to hold the lease (so that the landlord can act through it). This needs two other players, and costs L$100 to form. If you dont have two other players you trust, you can create two more characters (known as "alts" at a one-off cost of US19.90 (currently, May 2005, about L$5000). Apart from your inability to sell and advertise it normally via the "about land" dialogue (because the landlord still owns it) you have all the normal controls over your land. This only became possible recently, which is why this form of leasing is currently so new.

Since you are not the landowner, you do not need to pay a monthly (premium) subscription, thus saving US$9.95 per month (currently about L$2500). This is not as valuable as it looks, because paying it gets you L$1800 per month in extra stipend, which you lose if you stop. Neither (obviously) do you pay tier (land fees) to LL. Instead you pay rent directly to your landlord, which he may himself call "tier".

Many landlords fix this rent at the same level as the tier you would otherwise pay as owner. (Though remember that LL charges no tier for 512m - this is why most leases offer 1024m minimum - the landlord cant afford to match LL's free 512m offer.) But any other pricing or timing arrangement is possible - whatever the landlord offers, and you agree. This rent flexibility can provide a further advantage in that you may be able to hold amounts of land sized just above a LL "tier boundary" whilst only paying a small proportional rent increment.

The key to recognising when you are being offered a lease rather than full land ownership is that you will be unable to buy the land on your own simply by clicking it, but will need someone to come transfer it to you, or will be referred to a website for details on "how to buy".

Perhaps you might care to pass this on to the lady concerned. I'll drop a copy into your inventory. I'd be glad to hear if she would have found it helpful, or if she feels it is too detailed or complex. All other constructive comments welcome. Perhaps we can now agree that something like this actually is needed.

Anyone else who would like one to give out please post here or (preferably) IM me in game.

This astonishes me, and is inviting confusion.
Hours could (and it seems did) elapse between these two events.
The landowner has no control over what the lease seller told the buyer, and does not arrive to (hopefully) correct any misinformation until, the money having changed hands, the seller could presumably have spent it elsewhere, or even have logged off, not to return for weeks or forever.

Surely no money should ever change hands until the landlord is happy that the buyer is fully informed of what she is buying ? This was the one protection and reassurance we all thought was in place. I understand this lady now faces a further charge of nearly $3000 from the builder, even if the landlord refunds the sale price of the lease and lets her go because she was misled. The house was custom constructed during the time lapse, and the builder's time is gone forever.

I think these problems will happen more. Leaseholders keen (or even desperate) to move on will use varying degrees of care and honesty in describing the implications of the lease. They may then even dash off with the money in their pocket.

At the very least the buyer should pay the lease purchase price to the landlord in stage I, not to the seller. The landlord can then nullify the sale if the buyer has been misled, and return the cash. If the buyer fully understands and is happy, the landlord can complete the transfer, and pass on the funds. Better still, no money should change hands until the landlord is happy there has been full disclosure.

On the basis of this report, the rules as currently drafted and implemented are just begging for trouble, IMHO.

I'm curious why this thread wasn't closed if a thread addressed to a single individual or group are "inappropriate". In fact, I thought it was said they weren't allowed, period.

Maybe the mods thought that if this statement were true, it deserved at least an airing.
Yet it's not true, and Anshe, being on a different time zone, is not here to rebut some of it.

I'm questioning every element of this story because I've bought land in Ansheland myself, and because I believe these constant attacks on this form of land offer of parcels in zoned private islands is part of some kind of hidden agenda or perhaps not-so-hidden, as we saw earlier in threads begun by Lindhar Lehane.

You cannot right-click and buy Ansheland. That in itself tells you right there that it is not like Linden land. It has written right on the "About Land" that "special terms and conditions apply". When you go out there, there are huge for-sale signs which you click on, and all the terms and conditions are on the notecard.

It's not possible to buy, pay for, and receive the deed in the land without understanding there are *different terms* than Linden land. You'd have to wilfully ignore the notecard that is staring you right in the face on sales signs right on the land. You'd have to wilfully ignore what Anshe herself tells you in person.

Therefore the statement that someone first bought the land, then only found out hours later that it wasn't like they thought, seems to be a factor of someone not reading the card.

What's not clear from this story is whether this purchase was made from Anshe herself or officers of Dreamland, or from a resident or Dreamland who decided to sell his parcel.
That can be done, if he can find a buyer who will abide by Anshe's terms. So at that level, it's possible that seller did not fully inform the builder's client about the sale. In which case, this isn't about Anshe, but a person selling their long-term deed on Anshe's land to another buyer without fully informing them of the terms. Here again, even a rank newbie would see if they were paying a person directly, and not right-clicking on the land itself for the payment, they were not getting the usual Linden terms and conditions.

No, we cannot agree that "something like this is needed" from outside parties because the person making the offer, Anshe Chung, *already explained the terms* on her card. They are clear. If you don't like they, you don't have to buy the parcel and abide by them. And those selling Ansheland in turn are obliged to find buyers willng to follow the same terms.

This is an internal players' dispute. The rancor on the forums caused by people bringing in-game disputes to the forums really should cease. And there should be player-based in-game dispute resolution centers, consumer advocacy groups, Better Business Bureaus or other types of organizations, operating freely, transparently, and with accountability themselves (not as vigilante groups above the law).\

It seems to me that just handing out cards is not enough. A consumers' group could help people walk through steps and help resolve disputes at earlier levels than the already-escalated and angry intervention involved in bringing it to forums.

I recently helped a person who was struggling for several days to buy on an island, trying to form the group, register on the site, etc. etc. There are quite a few steps to doing these purchases and a major problem that I can see is that the providers of these land offers simply aren't online enough to provide the customer service they should be providing. Ultimately, I think it's their responsibility to provide customer service and customer dispute mechanisms and educational brochures, and not the job of the net nannies.

This honestly sounds more simply like someone observed as not doing his or her job correctly. Not to mention how silly this'd look in court.

About 200 years ago we had the Inquisition plus the power full men in Church and the smal narrow minded people in the society haunted all ”witches” (aka powerful women)...

I feel more and more - sadly - that its not over yet....


Yes we have grey weather today in Sweden.. . bläääää

:d

This thread seems proof of a major difference between subletting land from another player and purchasing land from Linden Lab; the right to public discourse concerning disputes.

A tenet should have the right to fully disclose any and all transactions with a landlord, and the landlord should have every right to present their side of the situation. To limit the amount of information a rentor or a landlord can post in public concerning their disputes is a great disservice to any future potential customers.

You certainly can post issues you have with Linden Lab's land service, but in publicly revealing disputes over land contracts with other players you risk TOS violation and face possible banning.

I belive that if you decide to rent land to others you have given up your right to privacy regarding interactions with your tenets. This goes for Linden Lab and transactions between residents.

I would suggest creating a seperate section for these disputes to be posted.

I think I should tell you that I am not an arrogant, insensitive, nor I think a stupid person.
I am utterly taken aback by the steady stream of antagonism I get to my postings of concern over misleading lease advertising, and the dangers of confusion. I am similarly taken aback by the endless assumption that I have some sort of hidden agenda or vendetta against one particular landlord, when nothing is further from the truth.

I am thinking hard to try to understand what is the cause of this apparently profound difference of viewpoint. I will post my conclusions when I reach some.

I do listen. I'm listening hard.

But what do you think is the solution? The Land Sales ability was removed. Everyone I know who has purchased in Ansheland was aware of all the rules and regulations. I told a friend about land for sale there and prior to her making her purchase both I and Anshe pointed her towards the website and she fully understood what she was getting.

Does it matter that there are many people happily living in Ansheland more comfortable than they could be on the mainland grid? Please address this question?

There were several threads attempting to deal with this Owner/Landlord/Renter/Transfer Rights, etc situation - which IMO, had lots of heat and little fire.

Blurring the reality of land ownership, how land is bought, sold, transfered, tenant/renter rights without a new TOS only continues to weaken SL.

Again, this is not a technological issue, it is a societal issue basic to SL community and economy.

Waiting for a Client upgrade is not the most effective solution, and probably will do little to deal with these issues in a timely way.

_/_/

The forum search is not working for me; but I remember threads about this topic developing from time to time after people bought land in Linden-zoned sims without realizing that there were restrictions in place. The arguments seemed very similar in that one resident bought land from another resident with no idea that the sim was zoned and that the Lindens would impose regulations on builds, commerse, et cetera.

Does anyone remember if the Lindens were more sympathetic than this unnamed land broker or if money was ever refunded or such?

The land that changed hands was not owned by me, but by a resident. The resident who was selling had been clearly notified that it is her responsibility to fully inform potential buyers about the nature of product she was (re-)selling, including zoning rules.

As soon as the previous owner informed me about the sale and ownership change I got in touch with new owner. I can not confirm wether or not the previous owner had informed her sufficiently about the zoning. However, the new owner received notecards with zoning rules from me personally when I met her, was fully informed by Dreamland staff about every detail of land ownership in our sims and had chance to ask questions. There was no protest, concerns or issues raised by the buyer at that time. So land ownership was transfered.

Please note that this is more than what you get if you, for example, buy land in Linden zoned sims such as Boardman. I met newbies who went to Boardman, clicked BUY without having any clue about zoning rules there and became desperate when they found out they could not use the land for the Tringo game they planned host there.

Land deals between residents is their business. If somebody sells you PG land in Linden sim and tells you that there you can build one sex club you have been scammed by another resident, but you have no right to blame Linden Lab for this. If somebody sells you land in Dreamland and does not tell you that those sims are zoned or gives you wrong information about the zoning rules you have been scammed by that seller. Apart from this, no matter if you buy in Linden sims or in sims managed by us, you always have the option to ask a Linden liason about terms and conditions of land ownership in the Linden sim you plan to buy land or one ANSHECHUNG.COM liason about terms and conditions of land ownership in Dreamland sims.

In this particular case the person who bought the land has been given the option by us to move to another sim with flat terrain and less stringent zoning rules. This is nothing we are obliged to offer, but it is good thing to help out people when we can. I made this option available to the new land owner before her builder tried start drama on this forum. I also want to mention that there were threats and insults directed at me in private conversation by the person who started this thread, while the new land owner herself fully understood and admited the responsibilities and decided not take part in the drama. As such this thread is one flame and personal attack incited by one person who has not even been party to the transaction under discussion.

Anshe when did this happen? I don't know of anyone in the past 6 months who bought land in Boardman for Tringo purposes. Land there is expensive now, especially for someone starting out, and not easy to find for sale. If you hear of anyone in a similar predicament please refer them to me. I'd be happy to take the land off their hands.

The information pedestals with the zoning rules scattered profusely around Boardman seem to keep situations like this from happening. They are basically notecard givers and they seem to do the trick. They might be useful for your zoned sims.

It makes sense that you want to disclaim responsibility. Whether you will be legally and Linden-ly able to is another story.

I reject the idea that you can disclaim all responsibility for what happens with your company's offerings. Just as the cigarette companies are being held liable for smokers' heath, there is precedent to hold you liable.

Its just the enviornment in which your business operates.

I don't know, if it was me selling my land in Ansheland, I would make sure the person knew what the policy was. How could Anshe know what someone else is telling a buyer? Perhaps you are trying to stifle my ability to sell to someone else other than back to Anshe if I choose to sell. This sets a very bad precedent.

I agree Merwan. And I personally am a supporter of "Land Rentals" (I would not have stayed with Neualtenburg if I wasn't). But I feel in the grand scheme of SL, this is a very new issue. "Land" buying has always had a learning curve in SL. I remember with 1.2 coming, we must have discussed for weeks what was going to happen with the way land was handled, asked a million questions, and had to have a lot of Linden clarification.

I honestly don't think this issue should be treated any differently. It is a huge change to the way things have been done in SL, and just because it is not confusing to some, does not mean it will not be confusing to others.

Handled the right way, this could be a huge stepping stone and success in SL. Handled the wrong way, it could hurt a lot of people and leave a sour taste in the mouth to future *big* changes.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect your land owners to respect this "responsibility" when they are leaving. Any time one of your soon-to-be ex-customers rips somebody off, YOUR reputation suffers. There must be a better way than relying on the good will of people who want out.

Buster