Should you be able to sell island land in the land sale tab for less than 1 L$ / m2?

Also, should be able pop up and error message to users forcing them to contact you when they try to buy the land?

It's not a real sale. What if the owner folds. or changes their mind? The sim gets sold to someone else?

Real land is permanent. This island land is so not.

It's rental land. And if islands can advertise rental land in the Land Sale Tab, then everybody else should be allowed to do the same.

Oh, and having read this thread in it's entirety... I'm blown away.

I've read the entire thread too


How about a filter for Linden Land or Private Land?

Well, that's a tough question

If we assume we have a completely free, unregulated, liquid market, there shouldn't be any restrictions on setting prices. If someone is so foolish as to do "dumping" on the real estate business, that someone will certainly have a nice finantial loss.

On the other hand, sometimes, in RL, access to limited resources is either government-controlled or eventually has prices fixed by a cartel (like on the oil business), exactly to prevent dumping. In other cases, pricing structures are completely liberalized, but you have certain organisations/institutions (mostly government-operated) which look into dumping or monopolies to break them up. It will be interesting to see if a similar thing "evolves" naturally in SL, or if LL has to interfere at some step to keep the market regulated.

So there is no easy answer

I don't know why this bothers you so much, blaze.

My God, people have found something that works, that serves other people, and that makes money in this game. The Horror! The Horror!!!

Honestly, what the *fuck* is wrong with Anshe Chung buying island sims, spending hours and hours terraforming them beautifully, parceling them up, which takes work, and then going through the incredible administrative headaches and nightmares of trying to RENT them out instead of really selling them and having them off her tier and out of her life?

Honestly, do you ever try to manage land in this game besides, I dunno, the few thousand that your house and store sit on?

Why are you so *vindictively* following up this one?

Why has it put such a BUG up your ASS???

So somebody is using the land sales tab to RENT? Geez, I'd love to do that! As I said, I think it used to work to put the sale to $0 to myself, but I"m not sure. I can see it, but apparently no one else .

And what of it???? Like it's a crime to rent land in this game? None other than The Man Philip Linden himself said Linden Labs is not going to do "much" zoning (any?) and that players are encouraged to RENT and ZONE THEMSELVES.

In order for that to happen, land dealers need to be able to have a place other than this forums, read by only 10 percent of the people tops, to advertise their options.

If anshe is able to "invade" the land sales forum now, more power to her! She has land that you pay a purchase price for to occupy and liveo n if you keep to her conditions. You pay her tier, instead of Linden Labs. So it's just as much "ownership" as the tier-paid land is "ownership" to Linden Labs. Honestly, WHY do you care?

Do you think someone has gained an unfair advantage here? Do you think that some crime has committed? What, somebody managed to put an ad for the rented land more visible in the game so that people could flock to it from the griefing, viewblockers, arrogance, and idiocy of the main grid?

What is your real purpose here?

1) to draw more attention to yourself -- is that always the objective?
2) to harass Anshe because you're jealous of her visibility and success in the game
3) to stop more commerce because you're basically anti-business at heart
4) to force some do-gooder pop-up-blocker thingie on the game

Shack, as for your concern about the owner folding. Well, I don't think Anshe is folding? Or Nexus for that matter. And those are the people doing this. I can't think of others. If there is maybe one or two other private islands out there doing this, God bless them.

And isn't it the case that anyone renting land could fold, and the tenants will find themselvs stuck on publickled land? Yet that is probably a rare if non-existence occurrence.

Why invent trouble?

My God, somebody tries to find something that works in this game and all you can do is snipe and cavil!

Prok, don't be an ass.

Prok, you really need to be careful about pesonalizing situations because invariably you will get it wrong sometimes (we all do).

Getting things wrong is OK on theoretical debates but absolutely *not ok* when you are directly addressing a person, their personal motivations and character.

For example, in this case you are completely 100% off base.

It doesn't bother me. I am seriously thinking about buying and island and doing this, I just need confirmation that it is OK before I do so otherwise I will be out $1200 USD

Also, you need to be careful or you could get yourself banned from SL if you continue to personaly address people's characters, motivations and agendas in a negative way.

He's off base in most cases. I just find it humorous that he attacks even you, one of the players who has toadied for him the most.

"toadied"

Nice off-base derogatory remark. Applying to be Prok's replacement, are we?

This is why I don't find Prok particularly offense, because well, basically, he's just like you and a lot of other people around here.

I'd have to start finding everybody offensive! And that would get a little tiring..

Where are the forms for replacing him? I can type Tripe over and over again to be derogatory...

Heh heh willow you're too cute to be derogatory, no matter how hard you try

Oh Godammit!

Cuteness Discrimination!!!!!!

well, i haven't read any threads on it, and am not even particularly sure what Blaze's point is, but if this is about - like Shack mentions - the fact that land on a private island can be 'bought' via the land for sale tab and there is nothing differentiating between LINDEN, TIERED land and land you're gonna have to make some private tier arrangement on, then yeah, thats totally wrong. It needs to be 100% clear. I'd be pissed off to the back teeth if I bought a nice little plot of land then found out I'm supposed to deal with Anonymous McAlty to pay for it.

Of course, if you're not talking about this, then just ignore me.

If one set land for sale in a private sim, it will show up in "land for sale" list, however, iwould you try to buy it, it will not work.

This means you would need to contact the sim admin (owner) to buy the land. This prevents that people just rush off an buy land without understanding the special terms involved.

well thats even more annoying then... so, its advertised as land for sale, with no indication that its a private sale, and then you go there to find you cant buy it? pfft.

The only things more annoying are, well, the rest of the find list! Like spending yesterday going to a dozen places listed with a given keyword, finding 4 dont exist at all and 6 dont sell what they said they do in their listing. That's why I don't use find. If I want anything in SL, I find it best to ask, because the entire find dialogue is a useless piece of crap. Oh yeah. That was all offtopic, really, huh? I don't care. I'm bored.

1) If that's the case, why not preface your remarks by saying "I'm seriously thinking about buying an island and doing this" and showing that you are joining the rest of the human race and taking a risk here -- instead of endlessly pontificating about what others are doing or not doing?

2) Cristiano had started *just* such a campaign complaining about Anshe's ads in the list so it seemed reasonable to expect you might be doing the same thing since you failed to supply any context except a possible judgement about said activity? I know that when I read it, it sure came across to me as a negative evaluation of said methods of renting/selling land.

3) You're not immune from my legitimate criticism just because you've seemingly sucked up to me or praised me in other threads.

4) I think it's a healthy thing to question people's characters, motivations, and agendas -- after all, they do it to me. And there's a lot of it that needs to be done in SL. And whether in a negative or positive way, such activity isn't necessarily a TOS violation so there'd be no sense in moving the bar on this, blaze.

5) Shack, I'm happy to be an ass on this. Because I've seen several people, including Cristiano, scream about this. And I think it's unfair to be screaming about it. blaze didn't at all explain his context. I've done him the favor in advance of criticizing that kind of position that could find something "wrong" with using the land sales tab in this way.

See how they react?



That's the mentality and the climate you're going to be working in if you try to do anything like sell land in any kind of innovative way in this game.

The fact that there isn't a pop-up, or that it doesn't seem to be explained, might be understandable as a reason for irritation, which is fixable by putting a notecard giver on these properties (that's what I would do). But Anshe has advertised them enough as a separate deal with different conditions that I think many people going there would understand they'd have to IM her.

I hope you won't be scared off, but brace yourself, blaze.

Yes, I am immune to criticism!

Prok, get it through your head:



Is against the forum guidelines and for good reason!

You are more than welcome to criticize ideas as presented, I expect you to, but you are not allowed to criticize me or anyone else on these message boards!

And, not that I have to in anyway (my motivations are my own allowable private thoughts) I have prefaced several of my messagse with the fact that I want to do this.

Now stop attacking people. Save your criticism for what you know for *sure* and that is the facts and arguments as laid out in the messages.

You have no idea of the character or motivations or agendas (this being an obvious example, you could not be more wrong!) or anything else behind that, so leave them completely out of all discussions.

You also have to realise quite often I take the side of the argument that I disagree with and try to argue it in hopes of illuminating further understanding.

So, to try to prescribe motivations upon me for the arguments I make is an extremely dangerous thing to do considering I will argue the point of view I even disagree with!

Kris makes a good point here. This is undermining the useability of the Land Sale tab. My thoughts are that LL will need to change this.

I think the previous solution about having a filter about private sales it the most likely and intelligent solution. The question that remains though: opt in or opt out? How obvious is this filter?

Opt in. I would never be interested in 'purchasing' a privately owned plot, and I know a lot of others I've spoken to have said the same. Also, it'd be too misleading for newbies - there is a lot to take in in SL, even as far as land goes, without further muddying the waters and having two distinct types of land available from the getgo, and all those 'but why can I buy this land but not that land?' forum questions

It would be a simple matter to let you filter "island land" like you can first land now. (Providing residents understand the implications.)

I think this is the wave of the future. Its a problem now becuase its really different from the mainland and most residents don't really understand it.

Buster

Yeah, I sometimes wonder if the new continent was an attempt to wean people off of the mainland grid.

I also wonder why LL is not answering my question. Are they trying to give Anshe some lead time as an experiment to see how this works out? Or do they simply have the h8 on for me.

Or are they so out of touch with what's going on in SL that they don't even understand my question (given Philip's first response).

One wonders!

"Since the land is actually a rental you won't be able to list it in the Land Sale directory after the next patch."

Fuck.

This really sucks for Anshe, and I think SL is making probably one of the worst mistakes possible. I know this sounds dramatic, but I think this is the worst mistake they have made in the history of SL.

The fact is this is the message: don't take a chance with us because we'll fuck you out of the clear blue with no warning if you do.

They need to give us advance warning when they're going to change things in a way that screws up whole business models.

People are investing their time and their money in SL and they're not even given the respect of a simple warning that things are going to change.

Robin - ot is OK to change the rules but there needs to be lead time, so alternative approaches can be persued.

Exuse me, blaze, but could you get it through YOUR head?

I have never been banned for what I have written in the forums. That's right. Never. Never Banned. For What. I Wrote. In the Forums. Hard to believe! But true! Instead, other people who have used really coarse and nasty language and verbal harassment in fighting me have had their posts removed. I've not had posts removed. Amazing, eh?

Of course there's always a first time. But let me break it down to you Refuting your aguments is not an attack on you, and using strong and stern and forceful language to refute your points is not an "attack on you."You'd be hard put to prove that!

What you are experiencing is the sensation of *somebody pushing back* effectively. You almost never get that, do you? Because most people are simply not smart enough to argue against you or each other. But I am.

Let me tell you what I know *for sure* blaze. I know for *sure* that you dicked me around -- and it is hard for me to find a more pleasant expression! -- for like 2 hours the other night, harrying me to death over this thing I told you about the $0 sales posting on the land sales list (it seems they don't do that now, or if they appeared only to me due to their being my land parcels, it was a freak thing, or those who appeared to response to the "ads" were flying over them, not finding them on the land list).

We went over and over this. I summoned friends to check over and over. You summoned newbs to check. Meanwhile we had a strenuous discussion about whether this was "right" or "wrong". I continued to maintain it was right. Having just had an even more strenuous argument with Cristiano, who ws opposing this effort by some other kind of business than his own to get at an ingame classified list. I figured you were taking the Cristiano position. Instead of explaining yourself *for hours* you just kept going on and on about what was "wrong" with this system of a landowner "taking advantage" to do this.

Now it turns out you were just seeking permission to do it yourself.

You've got a bit of a suck-up post to the Lindens on their hotline -- and it's not a personal attack to describe something anybody can ascertain and see for what it is -- asking if it is "OK" because this might "upset" the market. *Rolls eyes*. What, the one sim you will sell? Or you're going to sell 12 like Anshe? Or??? THIS is going to "upset the market"? I realize you care about SL, but is that a bit too precious, or what? Upset the market? Are you nuts? Of course it won't do that. And as well it shouldn't.

And never once, during those entire hours of deliberations, could you just be a mensch and say "I'm thinking of selling a sim with this tool." You never once acted in a collegial manner to say "I'm going to try my hand at marketing a residential community". So you suck me for all my commentary about it, but you play your cards close to the chest like all the other card sharps of SL. And why? Like I'm going to steal your idea? I assure you. I won't be buying any private sims, even from Schwanson, who reminds me constantly with his ads that I can buy from him!

It's that attitude of -- let me just collect everybody else's information but never put myself out there -- that really bugs me. If you're going to do something, do it. Try it. Accept the risk. Gather the field data. Try to have some respect for people who have actually done this like me. Don't tell me I can't criticize people who yammer about their plans endlessly and set up like 900 ducks before they move an inch.

Frankly, it was when I saw your post to the Linden Hotline, and your posts about how we must all worship Buster now, I realized what you were up to. Well, you don't need to flatter me.

Yeah, blaze. I couldn't agree more. Fuck. Exactly. And everyone thinks I'm a crank for saying there is an anti-business climate in SL? Of course there is!

And you're really, um, worried about Anshe? You mean you're worried about your own lost time on this! As well you should be! As well you should be!

(And you could have *told* me you were trying to do this yourself, so I'd support the effort, rather than acting like it was all a hypothetical study, or even appear to be lobbying *against* it by picking it apart so strenuosly. Can't you just be straightforward?!)

First of all, I am taking this totally with a grain of salt. Hate to be pointed about it, but this is only Robin who is saying this. Ask 5 Lindens, you might get 5 answers. Sometimes they answer something with the letter of the law, but they don't understand the consequences. Half the time they are just telecommuters, new, and reading literally out of some company playbook.

Now, let's look at this. First of all, she says NEXT patch. Well we just got through one. Surely they're not going to do 1.7 or whatever RIGHT AWAY? I mean, how often do they do these things? LIke, once a month? Few months? So blaze, buy yourself the sim, sell it, use the tools for now, if they bork up by the next patch scream, and lobby them to fix it. I mean, what else can you do?

It is hella hard to get rentals advertised. Ask me, I know! I do this all day! Very hard! And $0 sale thing either doesn't really work or stopped working. Ads in the forums and notecards in stores are all you have. It's very hard! Especially if you don't have Tringo, Bingo, and spam lists like Anshe or Blue. But...why not try it? Because it's fun?!

I'm not certain that Anshe is howling quite as much (yet) as you are because she's got herself positioned now to be associated with residential sims. So people can IM her or read her website and get it, plus she can advertise in the forums, which are going to work better sometimes than the land list. I find, counterintuitive as it is, people don't wait for the entire land list to load, find it confusing, and don't like it (if they aren't diehard real estate types).

I went to look at Meins tonight. So beautiful! So half (or more) empty! Even allowing for the move and you leaving. So full of beautiful commons objects like roads and community centers and plazas...but how the hell could you justify paying the tier on all those prims!

Honestly, the Lindens need to prim-farm more out of that "void" thingie of theirs in the middles of waters around sims and start offering to sell prim farms to join up to mainland sims and drawn down to your sim -- because everyone runs out.

So even though you are pissed at me and pissed at LL now, I invite you to consider: but blaze, isn't this the way it ALWAYS is??? Isn't it always one goddamn thing after another? So why not at least TRY instead of endlessly contingency planning????

Ultimately, everyone who has even the slightest interest in rentals, either as a seller or buyer, needs to join together to lobby for the right to advertise if not on the Land Sales list, on another, newly created classified list that belongs in this game.

I believe we need that, not just for rentals, but any kind of sold thing.