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Selling my items without owning a shop

Cubey Terra
Aircraft Builder
Join date: 6 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,725
04-02-2005 21:34
From: Prokofy Neva
Cubey has said that as a "mall owner" that I can't be part of this discussion because I'm offering cheap stalls for those entering the market, and that is being an "interested party," yet he can offer free stuff, lure newbs to his store eventually (as Toy points out) and get them buying his expensive stuff. Now, I ask you, who is the interested party here?


Thank you for that obvious, bald-faced lie, Prokofy. Never did I say that because you were a mall-owner you couldn't be a part of the discussion. And never did I mention your "cheap stalls". And then to add to the lie you say that I lure newbies into my store with free stuff to make them buy "expensive stuff".

That is a lie and it's obvious libel, plain and simple. You invented all of it to damage my reputation and deflect attention from your hollow arguments. I demand an apology. You've gone way too far.

I'm not even going to address the rest of your post because it's full of similar fabrications meant to discredit others and self-aggrandize. Your attacks have to stop, and your deceptive, libellous posts have to stop.
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
04-02-2005 22:02
Ok, you didn't call me a liar, so I'll respond. That was really my only stipulation.

From: Prokofy Neva
Reitsuki is hilariously arguing against me by this small-town insular argument of "don't you know who Cubey *is*" as if that is really relevant to an economic discussion about how you make a free and liberal economy.


Actually, in this case, it is relevent. When a person activly works towards a free and competative economy, and you accuse him of just the opposite, I think it is sorta relevent to ask the literal question of if you actually know who your critsising. It has nothing to do with his fame; it has everything to do with if you actually know of what you speak.


From: Prokofy Neva
I don't know have to know who he is nor be intimidated into silence just because he is older and a talent and all the rest.


Again, it has nothing to do with how old he is. You are the only person bringing that up. Which says something.

It has everything to do with what he does. If your going to accuse someone of a thing, it works better if they actually do the thing you accuse them of. Which in this case is not what is happening.


From: Prokofy Neva
And the next argument he uses is "but he's my friend," as if I'm supposed to never argue with anybody's friend, especially if their friend is THE Cubey Terra.


Hey, go ahead and argue with him. But I don't give a damn who it is, Cubey or Newbie. If it's a friend, or if I see you demonizing and bullying a person who doesn't deserve it, I'm going to stand up for them.

Interesting, though. I never used the "arguement" he's my friend. In point of fact, I handicapped my arguement by pointing out a pre-existing bias that would weaken my arguement in some eyes.

Interesting interperetation you have there.


From: Prokofy Neva
Giving away free items and being helpful and polite is ok, but I think what the oldsters have to look at here is their vaunted notion of themselves as the do-gooders and the saviours of newbiekind. Your freebies sap initiative. They prevent the development of newbie markets.


And this phrase, more than anything else, proves conclusivly that you either:

A) Did not actually read what I wrote

or

B) Did not understand what I wrote

or

C) Have no interest in what I wrote, or the truth, except when it fits your preconcieved notions. When it doesn't, you continue happily on you way none the less.

I'm honestly trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, PN. I hate trolls, and I hate to assume someone is someone, particularly when they seem to at least have a lot of interest in the topic they discuss. But you do make it hard, sometimes, to keep my faith in that.

From: Prokofy Neva
They help enable this clientalism whereby oldbies "apprentice" newbies in content creation or in buy-sell relationships, and that is stifling, and that is a medieval guild society.


So, from now on, when a newbie asks for help, I'll tell them, "Sorry, Prokofy says that helping newbies enables a medieval guild society, so I can't help you."

Gotcha.


From: Prokofy Neva
There needs to be more competition and more authentic market signals that come from purchases, low or high priced, that can determine value. These aren't abstractions, they are realities -- the newbie first-home market is crap because there are too many freebies that look crappy, bring down sims, and don't facilitate either newbie or oldbie creativity and value of the building trade.


Ok, there are like six different issues in that one little section alone.

I'm not interested in economic theory. Quite frankly, it bores me to tears. So I'll ignore that part, it's not relevent to me in any way.

You paint the entire prefab house market with a damn wide brush, you know. I'll agree some look like crud, but alot look damn nice. Honestly there are prefab houses out there that really impress me. And I don't consider myself a shabby builder by a long shot.

Bringing down sims is a whole different issue. Unless you mean 'bring down the value of'. But that's relative... I'd rather the WORST freebie house be my neighbor than a giant wang, or a huge tower of glowing green cubes, or spining political signs, or something.

Prefabs do indeed stimulate newbie creativity. I was a newbie once. I remember. Prefabs provided a lot of inspiration. Prefabs helped me hone my building skills, figure out tricks to accomplish things more efficiently, how to create odd shapes, etc.

I'm now an "Oldbie". Prefabs still stimulate my creativity and inspiration. I see prefabs, some made by our younger residents, and I still get inspired for new ideas and new shapes to try. And I've tried to make some prefabs. And that's inspiration of the best kind: Raw and free creation.

As for the "Value of the building trade"... Well, that's economic theory, but I'll touch on that a tad: For all of the complaining you do about freebies, I'll tell you this: Stuff sells. Stuff still sells damn well, in fact. The "Value of the trade" has not been harmed.




From: Prokofy Neva
There's some crazy idea that the person who gives away items and gets glory as being a giver-away-of-free-items is not only doing better as a person and getting glory, but is getting sales.


Actually, this "crazy idea" seems to be your own idea, and it makes perfect sense. Yes. Giving away free stuff makes a person popular and leads to sales. You have admited this, many times, trying to demonize us. This is basic theory of advertising. Are you asking us to shoot ourselves in the proverbial foot and act like morons and NOT try to boost our sales? That's... well, that's anti-capitalist, and I've never ever seen that term applied accurately before. But thats exactly what that is.

From: Prokofy Neva
But I think that status quo received wisdom really is due for a challenge. There are people who sell their goods, sometimes loads of them for lots of money, and they don't saturate the market with freebies that devalue everything and they make a lot of money and the newbies and the oldbies are happy with their products and have genuine market feedback for their whole sales relationship.


Ok... You can either retract the first part of that statement, or retract your claim that freebies allow us oldbies to establish a strangling monopoly on the market. The two cannot logically co-exist in the same worldview.


From: Prokofy Neva
Yes, giving out a freebie to lure someone into your store is a "nice" thing to do and sets up a long-term relationship that doesn't *have* to be one of slavery but I do raise the problem that so often is *is* one of *lack of choice* and a sense of being railroaded.


Slavery?

You weaken your arguement by even trying to make that comparison.


From: Prokofy Neva
I'm sorry, but I disagree with you here. The high and might tone you are taking in this discussion, drawing yourself up to full height like grand dragons and saying "Don't you know who we ARE?" is like some drama.


If you continue to claim we do one thing, when in fact we do another, I will continue to ask if you know who we are. Because it honestly sounds like you don't. And I repeat, if you don't know who a person is and what a person does, you have no buisness asserting you DO know who they are and what they do.

This has not one thing in all the world to do with age or status or fettidness or anything. It has to do with being a person who cares to be respectful and honest. It bothers me to see you accuse people of horrible things that they did not do, and assign evil and nefarious motives to things that are nothing of the sort. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt even lacking evidence that they aren't being all wicked and nefarious, and in this case I have evidence, having been Cubey's friend for over a year now.

It bothers me to see you attacking a friend for motivations and personality traits that I know are just not in his makeup. Ok? If you wanna attack Cubey for being a coffee addict, or being too into "pulp" styling, or anything else he's honestly guilty of, be my guest. I may not like it, but I can accept it. But that's not what happened here.

From: Prokofy Neva
I'm glad you're talented and can make cool vehicles. So let people pay for them. And let them develop them too. You don't need to flood the market with freebies and keep your grip on it. Let it go. You will have sales and they will have sales and it will all be a better place. You don't need to "help" people to be innovative by being in constant tekki wiki educatory mode (often accompanied by condescending mode to anyone who even questions that whole set-up). Just run a school and charge for lessons. And sell vehicles and charge for them. And have a few loss-leaders but don't flood the market with all this freeness like a constant beta test. It is death. It is death for this game, and this vehicle as a WWW for other worlds to appear.


Did it ever occour to you that I like helping people? I have zero interest in charing players money to help them... I'm not a damn 1-900 number. I like helping people. I don't agree with your views of it being the "death" of the internet or SL or anything. The linux-derived help-and-be-helped wiki-ish attitude has not killed the internet, quite the opposite. Nor has it stiffled innovation, quite the opposite.

I see the same concepts you do.

I disagree with your conclusions.

From: Prokofy Neva
Huh? How many times do I have to say that I didn't invent the term content baron, I have no gripe or grudge against the "content barons" because I think it is absolutely fine that they charge money and have customers. That's why I don't want so many freebies. When there are less freebies, when there are less oldbies ready to fly into a touchy insult-mode rage every time someone questions their positioning in the game, there will be more content-creators which will create the necessary competition for there to be less "content barons" in the sense of people brooking no competition, and therefore no natural market corrective and incentive for change and improvement.


I never claimed you did invent the term. In fact, I specificly said I was not getting involved in that arguement. Ok?


From: Prokofy Neva
Libel? Where's the libel? Huh? I'm criticizing the practice of giving away too many freebies. This is an economic posture which I believe is not supportable. I'm urging people to sell their wares. I'm urging them to stop guilt-tripping every mall owner or space-renter as somehow a gouger and not a legitimate service-provider in this game. I'm urging people to stop believing that just because you give something out for free that we are supposed to endlessly bow to you ever after -- have the guts to put it out for sale and see if anyone buys it.


Libel is stating as facts things that are untrue in such a way as to damage or risk damage to a person's reputation. Your assertations on Cubey's personalities and motivations are untrue. Hence, Libel.

From: Prokofy Neva
The Lindens coddled and socialized you all with socialism, and you replicated it by your patronizing and cloying attitude toward newbies. Newbies are people with high-end computers and in many cases $9.95 a month to play this game and don't need the cloying pity that you dish out to them.


What does the system they own have to do with it? I have a bloody high-end system too. So do you, for all I know. Or maybe you are on a bare-bones. What does it matter? As for "pity"? The hell? Pity? The only "pity" I have for newbies is having to deal with the hellish amounts of dhrama and land-baroning that goes on in world anymore. Well, and the ones unfortunate enough to pick a time right near a version release to sign up, because they get an unfair impression of the game. But I have no "pity" for their abilities or knowledge or any such nonsense. Quite the opposite. I've met newbies that impressed me immensly with what they are able to do. By any standards, not just as newbies.


From: Prokofy Neva
They can go buy some money on GOM< or save up a bit to buy some things in the game and get themselves started in business in all kinds of niches that could develop when you all can let go the fierce, clinging grip you have on this economy, which you want endlessly to circulate your freebies to maintain your visiblity in world, which you want endlessly to buy your high-end products, which you want endlessly to bow before you in endless gratitude for being the noble types to help newbies. Please, spare us.


*watches the "Reality City Limits" sign with a cautious eye*

I honestly still have not figured out how you equate "Helping people who ask for help, teaching them the techniques I use, and helping them get established as a vehicle creator that competes against me" as wanting to maintain a "...fierce, clinging grip you have on this economy".

:confused:

Bow before me? Heh. I'll be happy when you stop trying to incite them to spit in my face, kick me in the junk, and take my wallet, thank you very much.

Please, spare me that.
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
04-02-2005 22:24
From: someone
If it's a friend, or if I see you demonizing and bullying a person who doesn't deserve it, I'm going to stand up for them.


Um, where is there "demonizing" and "bullying"? I'm disagreeing. That's different.

Each time I make a criticism, i.e. of ugly boring virus-like prefabs spreading all over, you take that point and make it seem as if I have exaggeratedly stated that all prefabs are ugly. I know there are beautiful prefabs because I buy them and put them out. Even some freebies are pretty. But there are too many ugly freebie prefabs. Shall I go fetch some pictures of them? *Every single new land in every single sim has an ugly Siggy Romulus house.* This is not progress.

Sure, prefabs help newbies figure out how things are built. They can take them apart and even modify them sometimes. It would be also better if they could buy them inexpensively to provide market feedback and more valuation in the game space.

I don't believe all this nice-guy freebie stuff is good for the game. That doesn't mean you have to accompany each interaction with a new player with a "better not give you a freebie because Prokofy says it is a medieval society". That's silly and exaggerated.

It *is* a medieval society when the craftsmen's guilds are elevated uber alles, when they sell primarily to each other, when some baron or prince somewhere subsidizes them all in various ways with orders for their produces, commissions, or land, and when connection with the princes and reputations propped up by freebies and other guilds' members are literal economic goods and enhancers in ways that brook no competition.

From: someone
Did it ever occour to you that I like helping people? I have zero interest in charing players money to help them... I'm not a damn 1-900 number. I like helping people. I don't agree with your views of it being the "death" of the internet or SL or anything. The linux-derived help-and-be-helped wiki-ish attitude has not killed the internet, quite the opposite. Nor has it stiffled innovation, quite the opposite.


I just don't agree. People who help others for free might be altruistic, they might be decent but the anger and hostility and meanness they dump on you when you merely question whether this is such a great idea for building valuation in an economy suggests the incredibly emotional clutchiness they have on this self-image of themselves as Lady Bountiful. It suggests their image of themselves as helpers is more important than valuing their own labour. That just plain doesn't make sense to me.

The idea that the Internet survived because people kept giving away stuff for free couldn't be more fallacious. All of these big companies like Amazon.com all went through real harships precisely because they gave away too much for free in terms of not charging the really high rates that reflected the cost of the labour involved. Many companies went out of business after the Internet bubble in the 1990s due to this undervaluation of labour and overvaluation of technological advancement and markets and willingness of people to adapt.

Innovation is indeed stifled when we all have to stare at the Siggy Romulus prefab in our first land. Again, this is not to pick on him, because it's not his fault perhaps that every single firstland has his house, it's just that it is free and spread like a virus.

People who are not in the technological world you are in do not have the romance you have with the wiki approach. They know they incredible amount of hard work and cost that goes into running all the equipment that runs the Internet. It is not properly valued, and its costs in many areas is not properly understood.

One of the biggest fallacies that tekkies live under is the notion that technological advances save time or save money or increase productivity. They are a huge blindspot about the losses in time, money, and productivity that always come *because the technology doesn't work right a lot of the time and they cannot keep blaming the user for this.*

An *emblematic* example of this is our delightful latest patch. I'm supposed to get in awe over streaming movies and I'm less than impressed when the tekkies tell me to turn that function off if my game crashes. Meanwhile I'm more in awe at my ability now to count individual prims on my rented lots. But the loss in game access I've had over the last 3 days is phenomenal and nobody is factoring that in when they talk about "technological progress".

Nobody denies that the Aerodrome is the coolest thing on two legs in the game, that is the awe of every newbie (including myself) that it is the ne plus ultra of game sites, that it is just really amazing. OK. But charge for it. Charge even $250 and hour for lessons. Charge even $10 for the freebies to see if they really go anywhere. That's all I'm talking about. Break out of this medieval strait jacket that passes itself off as revolutionary and technological, but is really just about the age-old apprenticeship guild system.
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Solar Ixtab
Seawolf Marine
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 94
04-02-2005 22:33
First off, economics and economic policy are a form of politics. Its important to rember that in political discussions, the reality of a situation and the appearance of a situation are functionally interchangable.

With that said, I agree with Prokofy in that certain sectors of the economy are stifled by the overabundance of free wares. For example, the clothing market consists of a handful of well-known designers that produce extremely high quality outfits through a combination of practice, expensive software, and talent. These items meet the demand for highest quality clothing, and are priced accordingly. Then there is the "second tier" clothing, often by the same designers, which is high quality but suffers from small defects or was phased out to make vendor space for newer items. You can find this stuff in a box for L$1. There's almost no market for midrange items at moderate prices, as nobody in their right mind will pay more than L$1 for an equivilant quality item.

My complaint with most free items in the world is that they are items. It seems to me that most L$1 boxes in the world serve the function of a builder's trashbin rather than something useful. In my experince its much more useful to have a usable component rather than an item. The SL library is a good example of this, but its rather slim of content compared to the number of free items existant in the world.
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
04-02-2005 22:45
From: someone
First off, economics and economic policy are a form of politics. Its important to rember that in political discussions, the reality of a situation and the appearance of a situation are functionally interchangable.

With that said, I agree with Prokofy in that certain sectors of the economy are stifled by the overabundance of free wares. For example, the clothing market consists of a handful of well-known designers that produce extremely high quality outfits through a combination of practice, expensive software, and talent. These items meet the demand for highest quality clothing, and are priced accordingly. Then there is the "second tier" clothing, often by the same designers, which is high quality but suffers from small defects or was phased out to make vendor space for newer items. You can find this stuff in a box for L$1. There's almost no market for midrange items at moderate prices, as nobody in their right mind will pay more than L$1 for an equivilant quality item.

My complaint with most free items in the world is that they are items. It seems to me that most L$1 boxes in the world serve the function of a builder's trashbin rather than something useful. In my experince its much more useful to have a usable component rather than an item. The SL library is a good example of this, but its rather slim of content compared to the number of free items existant in the world.



Thank you, thank you. This is exactly what my point is. Exactly. Very well said. And said 100 times better than I could say it, and in less space.

And you are focusing on another byproduct of the paralyzing freebie stuff -- the absense of a mid-range market. Couldn't agree more. Whether clothes, housing, vehicles, skins, whatever, there just isn't that range. It's high-end, or it's freebies, and freebies usually just being the calling-card or the trash-bin of the oldbie expensive boutique stuff. It's death.

Yes, all economics is politics. But there is no need to turn all economics and politics into these kinds of very personalized rancourous exchanges where oldbies get all shirty just because you complain about the economic system they've benefited from and continue to control.
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Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
Kasandra Morgan
Self-Declared Goddess
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 639
04-02-2005 22:58
Cubey and Prokofy, do you two actually read those long posts you make? If so you should be the best of friends. I don't think I could talk that much to someone I didn't like.
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
04-02-2005 23:03
From: Prokofy Neva
Um, where is there "demonizing" and "bullying"? I'm disagreeing. That's different..


You are attacking. You are painting the worst possible picture of everything a person does. You are heaping negative personality traits on a person that just don't exist. This is demonizing.

From: Prokofy Neva
Each time I make a criticism, i.e. of ugly boring virus-like prefabs spreading all over, you take that point and make it seem as if I have exaggeratedly stated that all prefabs are ugly.


Not all. But by your own words you said said that the market is in trouble because there are too many crappy prefab builds. Sure, I'll admit there are some. But I don't think there are "too many", unless you think ANY is too many. I admit, perhaps I was a bit overzealous with that statement, but... *shrug*.

From: Prokofy Neva
I know there are beautiful prefabs because I buy them and put them out. Even some freebies are pretty. But there are too many ugly freebie prefabs. Shall I go fetch some pictures of them? *Every single new land in every single sim has an ugly Siggy Romulus house.* This is not progress.


Your definition of ugly. Yours. I don't find Siggy's prefabs ugly at all.

From: Prokofy Neva
Sure, prefabs help newbies figure out how things are built. They can take them apart and even modify them sometimes. It would be also better if they could buy them inexpensively to provide market feedback and more valuation in the game space.


You think it would be better. I do not. We disagree. I suspect we always shall, on this issue.

From: Prokofy Neva
I don't believe all this nice-guy freebie stuff is good for the game. That doesn't mean you have to accompany each interaction with a new player with a "better not give you a freebie because Prokofy says it is a medieval society". That's silly and exaggerated.


You said it creates this sort of society. Whats exagerated about it?

From: Prokofy Neva
It *is* a medieval society when the craftsmen's guilds are elevated uber alles, when they sell primarily to each other, when some baron or prince somewhere subsidizes them all in various ways with orders for their produces, commissions, or land, and when connection with the princes and reputations propped up by freebies and other guilds' members are literal economic goods and enhancers in ways that brook no competition.


I don't see this existing today.

I don't see this existing in the future.

I reject your premise.


From: Prokofy Neva
I just don't agree. People who help others for free might be altruistic, they might be decent but the anger and hostility and meanness they dump on you when you merely question whether this is such a great idea for building valuation in an economy suggests the incredibly emotional clutchiness they have on this self-image of themselves as Lady Bountiful. It suggests their image of themselves as helpers is more important than valuing their own labour. That just plain doesn't make sense to me.


Maybe that's part of the problem.

I have nothing against you questioning this. If you wanted to debate the issue, discuss it, and didn't throw around wild theories about us simply doing this for our egos, or to maintain a market stranglehold, or whatever else.

I (and we) do get frustrated and when we get accusations of motives leveled against us for what we do. You know the old saying, "No good deed goes unpunished"? SL is teaching us how true that is. It doesn't mean we're going to be happy and cheery about it, though.

I'm not a nun. I like helping people. That doesn' t mean that I need to tollerate being treated like shit for doing it, with a happy polite smile on my face.


From: Prokofy Neva
The idea that the Internet survived because people kept giving away stuff for free couldn't be more fallacious. All of these big companies like Amazon.com all went through real harships precisely because they gave away too much for free in terms of not charging the really high rates that reflected the cost of the labour involved. Many companies went out of business after the Internet bubble in the 1990s due to this undervaluation of labour and overvaluation of technological advancement and markets and willingness of people to adapt.


Amazon is not the Internet. I did not make that comparison, don't try to suggest I did. I said the internet. As the medium. As the entity. And I never credited the wikiism, if you will, for the SURVIVAL of the internet. I said it didn't HURT it. Which I stand by. particularly since that has GROWN since the internet crash.

From: Prokofy Neva
Innovation is indeed stifled when we all have to stare at the Siggy Romulus prefab in our first land. Again, this is not to pick on him, because it's not his fault perhaps that every single firstland has his house, it's just that it is free and spread like a virus.


You aren't hurt by that prefab. You are no worse off than with the hollow white glowing cube the newbie may otherwise have there. The ones that have the drive and the inclination and the ability to climb higher still will. Siggy has given those that DON'T an option other than living in a crappy white cube. How is this bad?

From: Prokofy Neva
People who are not in the technological world you are in do not have the romance you have with the wiki approach. They know they incredible amount of hard work and cost that goes into running all the equipment that runs the Internet. It is not properly valued, and its costs in many areas is not properly understood.


The irony of this statement is most of the most wiki-ish people you will meet DO understand all of this. They are server admins, they are network admins, they are computer technicians, they are computer developers.


From: Prokofy Neva
One of the biggest fallacies that tekkies live under is the notion that technological advances save time or save money or increase productivity. They are a huge blindspot about the losses in time, money, and productivity that always come *because the technology doesn't work right a lot of the time and they cannot keep blaming the user for this.*.


...

This doesn't have anything to do with your point, first of all.

And ask ANY tekkie if he thinks technological progress is all sunshine and lollypops. Most have destroyed technology on occasion in fits of rage, the ones I know.

You are painting a picture of techies that just does not jive with my life experience to date with techies. And I know alot of techies. I am one, for that matter.



From: Prokofy Neva
An *emblematic* example of this is our delightful latest patch. I'm supposed to get in awe over streaming movies and I'm less than impressed when the tekkies tell me to turn that function off if my game crashes. Meanwhile I'm more in awe at my ability now to count individual prims on my rented lots. But the loss in game access I've had over the last 3 days is phenomenal and nobody is factoring that in when they talk about "technological progress".


Pffffft. Again. Most of the actuall "techies" per say are just as critical of LL's less than stellar upgrade history as you are. Streaming movies are neat. All techies like neat stuff. It's like a cute little puppy to ooo and ahh over for us. It's the same reason we like expensive and impractical gadgets like USB-powered coffee mugs or nixie tube wristwatches. That doesn't mean we don't admit that it's often silly or not important.


From: Prokofy Neva
Nobody denies that the Aerodrome is the coolest thing on two legs in the game, that is the awe of every newbie (including myself) that it is the ne plus ultra of game sites, that it is just really amazing. OK. But charge for it. Charge even $250 and hour for lessons. Charge even $10 for the freebies to see if they really go anywhere. That's all I'm talking about. Break out of this medieval strait jacket that passes itself off as revolutionary and technological, but is really just about the age-old apprenticeship guild system.


The Aerodrome has no legs. Bah. We don't need legs! :D

Look, this has nothing to do with the Aerodrome specificly. It came up because, well, of who I am. The Aerodrome is what I do in SL 'publicly', so it's the source of my examples. I'm not saying the 'drome is god. If I were, say, Adam Zaius Gigas would have come up as an example. Or whatever.

First of all, the charge for lessons plan is dumb, as a rule. If a person IMs me, "Hey, I'm trying to use VEHICLE_TYPE_BALLOON for a VTOL craft but the performance is wonky", I'm gonna say "Try using AIRPLANE instead, it produces more consistant results.". As an example. Very few people rarely give formal lessons, because it's general not time-effecient to do it for one person, and once you get beyond the basics, everyone works on a different level and on different projects, making large-scale classes a waste of time.

As for charging for freebies...

Most of what we give away is freebies falls into one of three catagories:

1) It's 'junk'... T-shirts, odd toys, etc.

2) It's starter kits or tutorial stuff: Basic, well-commented scripts to learn from, simple geometry examples, etc

3) It's stuff designed to let anyone have fun, but is so old or so simple it's not really worth much money in today's SL. A year ago, Cubey's hoverpods were worth money. Today, they are a fun novelty.

Bah. Damn, it's after 3 here. I'm done for the night, this isn't worth getting a cold over. Seeya in the mornin', PN.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
04-02-2005 23:11
Ok, I lied, one last thing that came up while I was typing.

From: Solar Ixtab
With that said, I agree with Prokofy in that certain sectors of the economy are stifled by the overabundance of free wares. For example, the clothing market consists of a handful of well-known designers that produce extremely high quality outfits through a combination of practice, expensive software, and talent. These items meet the demand for highest quality clothing, and are priced accordingly. Then there is the "second tier" clothing, often by the same designers, which is high quality but suffers from small defects or was phased out to make vendor space for newer items. You can find this stuff in a box for L$1. There's almost no market for midrange items at moderate prices, as nobody in their right mind will pay more than L$1 for an equivilant quality item.


I'm also adressing PN with this, but only quoting SOlar.


There are two issues here.

One, the quality of items has VASTLY improved in SL over the last two years. Some of these "cast offs" are victims of that. I have every item Nephaline has ever made for men, and a decent share of the female outfits just for the hell of it. Her work is stunning, so don't think I'm denegrating her work (ducks horde of rabbid nephilites), but comparing a shirt she made when she was first starting out to a shirt to a shirt she made a month ago, you have no comparison. One is far and away bettter. So of course, working within an economy, the older, 'inferior' items are sold for less money. The same is true of vehicle builders, and scripters, and whatnot. This is solid, established economics, and I see no problem with it.

Two, there IS a viable "middle range" of products. I buy TONS of it. I regularly spend thousands of lindens in impulse splurges going around to various designers I visit by searching with the finder (I'm something of a clothing whore)... The key isn't quality. The best outfit in the world won't sell well if nobody wants it. The key is to be INTERESTING. Make new ideas, fun ideas. These are what will sell. This is where innovation is key. This is in fact another example the so called big names indirectly fostering innovation - as you say, and as anyone who works in marketing can tell you: To move into an established market, you need to be innovative, and find a niche.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
04-03-2005 04:35
Maaan.

Is there any other forum for any online game that his these kinda debates at these lengths?

I think not! That portends good things to come.
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Cherry Took
Mud Wrestling Champeeeen
Join date: 7 Jan 2005
Posts: 160
laughable in light of contemporary marketing
04-03-2005 04:40
A very common trend in marketing is to give away something in order to show someone the kind of craftsmanship or worth your product holds. This is true when i buy vodka and get a little free sample of crown royal. 40 years ago avon started giving away lipstick samples, not because they were communists, but because it was a successful marketing tactic. To give away sample products is hardly new, and it is hardly exploitative. It is merely marketing in a free economy. note the word free. this means I am free to use whatever tactic I think will work. I thought you were for capitalism, Prokofy? Well, this is capitalism at its finest. It is true that those with greater marketshare have greater advantage, and it will ever be so. but another thing worth mentioning is that many of the freebies i have gotten indicate that it is the maker's first try to do something. so in fact, it is something that served as an incentive for me: i made and gave away my first few chairs. Then I got a comission for a conference table from one of the people i gave away a chair to. And, I'm a relative newb also. (About as old as you anyway. :-))

Hope you enjoy your sunday. ciao.


Chase Rutherford
Oldbie Conspirator
Join date: 6 Sep 2003
Posts: 126
Free 20-Prim Shops
04-03-2005 06:11
From: Peter Steptoe
My question is, how to sell my items without owning land and building shops ect.? Asking others to sell my things in their shops? Any ideas, anyone?
I offer free 20-prim shops in Manhattan (the Hawthorne Sim) Please IM me in-game if you'd like one.

Chase
Alexa Hope
Registered User
Join date: 8 Dec 2004
Posts: 670
04-03-2005 06:38
Personally, since I joined in December, I have been showered with freebie items. Some fantastic and useful and others less so. For example, free textures, invaluable until I started uploading my own.

In most cases, I am not aware of the creators of these freebie items so if their plan was to draw me into buying their expensive items, then I have disappointed them.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with so many freebies being available. I am in the process of making things for sale myself and will probably put some freebies among them.

Thank you for the useful advice on page 1, about where to sell products. I will bear that in mind.

Alexa

PS There are an over abundance of malls, most of which appear half empty. Do we seriously need more?
Peter Steptoe
Registered User
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2
04-03-2005 09:27
Ah ok, thanks to everyone!!

I think a combination of internet shops and a low-cost shop inWorld is the best combination for me! I'm looking forward to contact some of you inWorld concerning their offers about shops.

Thanks!
- Peter
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
04-03-2005 12:26
OK, I'm tired of typing, it happens even to me, and I can't read through all those posts right now even longer than mine, I will return to them, that is the beauty of the public record: )

I hope you can come in-world and have a debate there some time and give me dwell.

Here are just two screens from just two of visits to help tenants get set up on rentals, and within just 10 hours or so. But I could add 20 more today, and 50 tomorrow.

BTW, these aren't my land parcels, but on neighbours' land, I never have these prefabs out but try to have a much wider and better-looking variety even for low-prim.
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
Daisy Mechanique
Seller of Rocks
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 28
04-03-2005 13:13
"Is there any other forum for any online game that his these kinda debates at these lengths?"

Lots of them. And every one of them has a guy like Prokofy, too. Some people like to play the underdog.
Jack Digeridoo
machinimaniac
Join date: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1,170
04-03-2005 13:27
I spent a few hours adding all my items to the web based store. I had 35 items in total to add to 3 stores so it took me hours.

The easiest and fastest to setup was SLBoutique.com. SecondServer has a lot of nice features like sending updates to customers. But I've sold 3 items on SLExchange since I started adding items and none on the other two sites.

slexchange.com slboutique.com SecondServer

And I bought some $L from Hank's terminal in Samurai it was incredibly easy, I highly recommend Hank if you need $L's !!
_____________________
If you'll excuse me, it's, it's time to make the world safe for democracy.
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
04-03-2005 19:08
"
From: someone
Is there any other forum for any online game that his these kinda debates at these lengths?"

Lots of them. And every one of them has a guy like Prokofy, too. Some people like to play the underdog.


Yeah, tons. And every one of them has a gal like Daisy. Some people like to play faux sophisticate.
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
Daisy Mechanique
Seller of Rocks
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 28
04-04-2005 00:19
Leda thought she was fucking a swan. Your simple Jedi mind tricks are useless here.

Anyway, back on topic . . . free shop locations help a lot. So do show and tell events and other contests where you can enter your stuff. Those are a great way to let people see what you're doing. You might even sell some stuff right on the spot. Be sure to post about your new item in the forum in the New Products section, too. If someone really likes your work, they will IM you and ask to buy it. You can give copies to event hosts in exchange for advertising and a spot to put a vendor. Wear or use your item, give copies to friends and make them show it off -- anything to get it seen. Good luck!
Damien Fate
Goofy designer
Join date: 6 Nov 2003
Posts: 634
04-04-2005 05:05
Mirada.go-shop - Available in Alua... just look up "Mirada" in find!

/shameless plug
_____________________
Mirada.smartHUD - The new way to control your avatar and the world around you - In Mirada, Hairspray (22,63,51) or find me in world!

You want me to be Semi Serious? Well that's ok, I'm almost half semi serious 50% of the time.
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
04-04-2005 05:33
Ahaha. I never saw Prok as the underdog.

I always saw him as the ego-centric, my way or the highway kinda guy.

Funny, how different people see different things..
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Kim Anubis
The Magician
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 921
04-04-2005 05:49
I dunno, he reminds me of this:

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/rebelleader.htm
_____________________
http://www.TheMagicians.us
Daisy Mechanique
Seller of Rocks
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 28
04-04-2005 05:51
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/rebelleader.htm
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
04-04-2005 06:02
From: someone
Leda thought she was fucking a swan. Your simple Jedi mind tricks are useless here.


ROLFMAOL. You are able to tell me what is "useless" here?
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
04-04-2005 06:08



http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/royals.htm
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/royals.htm
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/royals.htm
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
Daisy Mechanique
Seller of Rocks
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 28
04-04-2005 06:15
From: Prokofy Neva
ROLFMAOL. You are able to tell me what is "useless" here?


Yeah, I am.

Have fun with that site.
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