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Increased Prims for Private Sims - Gimme!!

Felix Sholokhov
Registered User
Join date: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 12
01-02-2006 10:59
What if we supply our own machine to host the sim?
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Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
01-02-2006 11:03
From: Aliasi Stonebender
The problem is, the bonus multipler cheats.

The city sims can have more prims because of the no-build Governor Linden land. ditto with Burning Life and the winter festival... the TOTAL amount of possible prims is still the same.


This is really what I was trying to find out. We can of course concentrate prim use in just part of our sim, which is evidently what they are doing for the festival builds.

But - if you can run 4 sims on the newer servers, then why not 2 regular sims and 1 prim whore sim. :D
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Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
01-02-2006 11:14
From: Aliasi Stonebender

The city sims can have more prims because of the no-build Governor Linden land... the TOTAL amount of possible prims is still the same.


Yes, and it's a splendid system to encourage good relations between neighbors. I've tried both, and strongly prefer the setup in the city sims. I used to own two thirds of a regular sim for a private sandbox. Keeping a forested buffer between my construction zone and my neighbors' houses ensured good neighbor relations. However it ate into my prims and land area. Miramare is different. There's plenty of gov land for buffers between neighbors, and we get to build high towers or highly detailed shops with our double prim allotment.

Having experienced both variants I'd strongly recommend that LL make something like the city sim variant available to private island owners. There are numerous issues that arise when considering how this would actually be implemented, but I believe that this capability would enhance customer satisfaction so much that LL would gain overall from the retention of those who pay to own private islands.
Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
01-02-2006 11:28
From: Traxx Hathor
Yes, and it's a splendid system to encourage good relations between neighbors. I've tried both, and strongly prefer the setup in the city sims. I used to own two thirds of a regular sim for a private sandbox. Keeping a forested buffer between my construction zone and my neighbors' houses ensured good neighbor relations. However it ate into my prims and land area. Miramare is different. There's plenty of gov land for buffers between neighbors, and we get to build high towers or highly detailed shops with our double prim allotment.

Having experienced both variants I'd strongly recommend that LL make something like the city sim variant available to private island owners. There are numerous issues that arise when considering how this would actually be implemented, but I believe that this capability would enhance customer satisfaction so much that LL would gain overall from the retention of those who pay to own private islands.


I'm confused about the value of this to privalte sim owners. The whole point in owning a private island is being able to use all of it as you wish and not have neighbors. I can choose to concentrate all my prims in one spot if I want to.

Or are you talking about a tool for private sim owners in the sub-let business. Since running a sim maxed out with prims gives you lag, I would think private owners already dedicate some prim land as no or low build just to keep that 2K prim buffer that lets your sim run better.
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Seifert Surface
Mathematician
Join date: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 912
01-02-2006 13:40
From: Aliasi Stonebender
The problem is, the bonus multipler cheats.

The city sims can have more prims because of the no-build Governor Linden land. ditto with Burning Life and the winter festival... the TOTAL amount of possible prims is still the same.

Ah right... so this must be a bug right? Yeah... must be, there's no way Grignano has that many available prims.
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
01-02-2006 14:17
As a landscaper, and at this point in the development cycle, I'd honestly rather purchase a quad of sims for the standard $1250/195, all running on a single box like the voids do, and with 5k prims each for a total of 20k across the entire area. Talk about parks and views ooo la la /me spills milk all over the table.
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Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
01-02-2006 14:22
From: Seifert Surface
Ah right... so this must be a bug right? Yeah... must be, there's no way Grignano has that many available prims.


Nope.

It'll show that, but you'll never get that amount of prims, because of all the no-build land.
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Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
01-02-2006 15:14
From: Surreal Farber
I'm confused about the value of this to privalte sim owners. The whole point in owning a private island is being able to use all of it as you wish and not have neighbors. I can choose to concentrate all my prims in one spot if I want to.

Or are you talking about a tool for private sim owners in the sub-let business. Since running a sim maxed out with prims gives you lag, I would think private owners already dedicate some prim land as no or low build just to keep that 2K prim buffer that lets your sim run better.


Actually I was thinking about an enhanced 'city class' of PI sims that would be particularly useful for subleasing or when friends pool resources so they can each have a lot, say an eighth of a sim, on a PI. The same principles of good neighbor relations apply to those cases. I guess it's the SL version of the adage: 'good fences make good neighbors. From my own experience I'd recommend the 'city class' PI sim as an experiment, because buffer areas of gov land really do work, and the double prim allotment allows more interesting architecture.

However it's easy to recommend something, but a bit harder to implement it. LL would have to add many new 'city class' PI sim designs to their portfolio of choices, as well as allowing the option of using the new 'city class' ruleset when submitting your own custom .RAW file for a new PI.
Seifert Surface
Mathematician
Join date: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 912
01-02-2006 15:23
From: Traxx Hathor
From my own experience I'd recommend the 'city class' PI sim as an experiment, because buffer areas of gov land really do work, and the double prim allotment allows more interesting architecture.


If I'm understanding Aliasi correctly, theres no difference between a PI with a bunch of land set aside that you never build on and a "city" sim. In which case, just go and do it, no need for anything special by the Lindens.
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Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
01-02-2006 18:26
From: Seifert Surface
If I'm understanding Aliasi correctly, theres no difference between a PI with a bunch of land set aside that you never build on and a "city" sim. In which case, just go and do it, no need for anything special by the Lindens.


That's correct -- anybody can recreate a city sim on a PI right now, but what interests me is extra Linden buffer land for the 'good fences make good neighbors' benefit. Some posters would like to see a new class of PI sim having extra land area and the same amount of prims. I've read speculation that this would lead to builds with a lot of buffer area around them so that neighbors with different tastes in design are not in each others' faces. A great outcome if it did indeed turn out that way, but nobody knows.... Maybe people would choose those lots to get enough space for a huge low-prim prefab, and end up crowding their neighbors. The people might feel strapped for prims, and start returning all the trees. Who knows?

But we do know how the city sim experiment has turned out. With Linden supplied buffer strips the parkland including trees is a permanent feature that really does put a scenic buffer between properties. The downside is that nobody can build there so the PI owner could not sublease that extra land to help cover tier. There are also implementation issues, I'm sure, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this to happen.
Pym Sartre
Castle Overseer
Join date: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 100
01-02-2006 18:47
Hmm. I own a 16k plot on the mainland and after building pretty much the shell of my project, I still have 2k left to do the details. So I have to vote "no" based on the discussion of performance issues; if the folks who know the system think what it's at is optimum, I'd want to work with that until advances dictate otherwise. :)

Pym
Seifert Surface
Mathematician
Join date: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 912
01-02-2006 22:49
From: Traxx Hathor
But we do know how the city sim experiment has turned out. With Linden supplied buffer strips the parkland including trees is a permanent feature that really does put a scenic buffer between properties. The downside is that nobody can build there so the PI owner could not sublease that extra land to help cover tier. There are also implementation issues, I'm sure, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this to happen.

Surely the PI owner simply zones the island such that there are buffer zones and doesn't rent them out to anyone or build on them themselves... and we have exactly the same effect? Oh, or is it still the case that the prims assigned to a plot on a PI is linked to the land area? Perhaps a system could be set up such that the tenant always gets 2 plots, one of which is not to be built on (it is part of the buffer zones) but they get the prims from.
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
01-03-2006 06:33
I think what Traxx wants is an interface that grants the ability to set the prim balance per subdivided parcel. As a rental tool, it keeps the landlord from having to count prims. I can own 1/2 a sim with a total of 7500 prims, subdivide four 5000sm lots with borders between, assign one of them 3500 prims, assign the other three 1200 each, and assign the balance to the border lands for trees and such.
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Shadow Garden
Just horsin' around
Join date: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 226
01-03-2006 07:03
From: Andrew Linden
They asked for higher prim limits and we were curious to see what would happen, so we gave it to them as an experiment with the proviso that if they subsequently suffered unusual lag or instability we would not put a high priority on fixing their problems.

To their credit Teledor Isle has been a very low-maintenance estate for us. This is probably true because despite their high prim count they have a relatively low script count, and rarely host significant crowds. They have been given ample rope to hang themselves but have not done so.

The experiment appears to be a success, but at the moment I don't think we should increase the prim limits across the board yet. After spending the last week as gridmonkey*, tasked with keeping regions up and fixing emergencies around the grid, I'm painfully aware of some issues that we need to work on first.

Some of the consequences of increased primitive limits are obvious: lower render FPS, lower server FPS, and especially slower script execution. However the things I'm more worried about are the backend issues such as the size of the simulator process memory footprint, the size of backup files, and the duration of load/save events.


Andrew, I am getting ready to order an island and I would love to beta test this on a more heavily loaded sim for LL. Is there a way I could request it based on the caveats that if there are problems they are a low priority, or even a reversion back to the 15000 limit?
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Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
01-03-2006 11:17
From: Shadow Garden
Andrew, I am getting ready to order an island and I would love to beta test this on a more heavily loaded sim for LL.


I'm very much in favor of letting this experiment proceed.

Every now and then we see a thread like this with good ideas for giving people more choices in terms of land area and prim allocation. And we know that past LL experiments have been well received by residents as evidenced by the community committment and high land values in sims such as Boardman. We need more choices so that PI owners can create a variety of environments conducive to community spirit. In SL communities of involved owners are vital for enhancing land values.

Right now buying land is seen as an entertainment expense, and people resent the tier burden. If buying virtual land in SL becomes demonstrably a good investment we're more likely to see basic accounts upgrading to premium, and that's good for all of us.
Dragon Stryker
Destroyer of Heavens
Join date: 4 Jun 2004
Posts: 156
01-03-2006 11:33
I'm undecided. More prim would be nice, but I fear the performance issues. With more prim brings more scripts. No, that's not always the case, but it's very likely the case. I'd be happy staying at 15k prim if the work was instead put into better script handling to make the overall sim perform better.
FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
01-03-2006 11:56
I'd really like to see it done by server use as well. Indigo is a full simulator, and should be given the full resources as such, regardless of how many prims are in it. If you keep your scripts really low, why not the ability to increase the prim amounts? Also, a cube prim takes a lot less effort than a radically cut torus.

Another neat idea would be to allow sims to be variable in size - for example, like the 64 acre ones - with the same amount of server power. This would be really cool for things like natural parks and such.

Regards,

-Flip
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Adam Zaius
Deus
Join date: 9 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,483
01-03-2006 12:03
IIRC, Prim limits are more a client side than serverside problem; servers dont have a problem with handling lots of plain prims -- it's the clients that slowdown.

-Adam
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
01-03-2006 12:05
From: Adam Zaius
IIRC, Prim limits are more a client side than serverside problem; servers dont have a problem with handling lots of plain prims -- it's the clients that slowdown.

-Adam


while this is true - prim info can easily be sent in small plain text - let's not forget that typically:

More prims means more textures
More prims means more scripts

Regards,

-Flip
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George Flan
Registered User
Join date: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 268
More Prims
01-03-2006 12:08
I'm sorry, voted before I read I guess, however, it would be great to be able to buy more prims even if you only own a small piece of land. I have a 512 m2 lot which only allows 117 prims. I would gladly buy more prims off of LL to do more with my small lot. Another way for LL to make more development dollars....smile....sell me some....please....lol
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
01-03-2006 12:09
From: FlipperPA Peregrine


Another neat idea would be to allow sims to be variable in size - for example, like the 64 acre ones - with the same amount of server power. This would be really cool for things like natural parks and such.

Regards,

-Flip

I've always considered this should be the way forward. I think this is the way LL should be thinking for the main grid especially, more space, more protected land perhaps. For example, as flip has suggested, a 64 acre sim. This would be a sim 4 times the current size (not 4 regions joined) using the same CPU that one smaller sim would use, but with prims etc of a normal sim. For those of you who are savvy, is this possible? If so, what are the technical implications?
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Casey Benton
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 39
01-03-2006 14:16
Is there a way to request inclusion in the experiment? I would totally buy off on an increased prim limit with the same understanding. Most of Pumacity is low density, but the ability to put up high-detail builds for events would rock!

From: Andrew Linden
Yes, Telador Isle has a 20k prim limit.

They asked for higher prim limits and we were curious to see what would happen, so we gave it to them as an experiment with the proviso that if they subsequently suffered unusual lag or instability we would not put a high priority on fixing their problems.
Rickard Roentgen
Renaissance Punk
Join date: 4 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,869
01-03-2006 14:54
From: Zippity Neutra
My gut reaction is to agree that it's expensive enough as is, but realistically if this were a popular option we would be looking at a higher load on the asset server. I'd have a hard time making an non-emotional argument that there shouldn't be fees attached, since there is a greater overhead involved.

Jesrad: Interesting idea about changing the physical sim sizes. I wonder if that's allowed for in the system, because it seems like that would have been helpful for the void sims - instead of using two sims on the same server side-by-side, change the dimensions to 256mx512m. Likewise one or two spots where a 4x sim (1024^2) would have dropped in nicely. I'm betting there's a restriction in the code somewhere.


it's currently not possible, however I believe it should be looked into by a dev group. If you agree, take a look at my signature :).
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Jesrad Seraph
Nonsense
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,463
01-04-2006 01:31
Soooo, whose leg do I have to hump for an increased max prims setting on my sim ?
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