This linden sillyness is misguided

I wish people would stop suggesting ideas that would take the fun out of SL. Remove stipends, tax users, increase file upload fees, tax buyers, tax sellers tax land... Teir is a pretty steep tax already and people who buy or sell lindens already pay a significant transaction fee.

Also, remember that "sinks" aren't actually sinks since LL has stated that they see those fees collected as currency they can resell when they want to. *Town meeting notes 5/18. You're basically asking them to take your money and resell it, depressing the linden further.

I'm just glad the Lindens are smart enough to realize that this is very small minority opinion and that most the people posting to this topic are a little too focused on lindens.

It's a game, I pay my $10 a month to play plus $8 in teir. That's $18 a month and they aren't even providing content. If they start charging for every little thing then I'm not gonna enjoy it as much and I think a lot of other people would feel the same way. If I'm not enjoying it then I'll go back to basic or even drop out and I think a lot of people might do the same thing. So what if the Linden drops some, it's certainly not in a freefall. Raise you're prices if you have to.

I do think it was a mistake to eliminate the tiny 250 lindens that new free users got given. It wasn't a lot, it generates good will, good feelings and gets people used to spending money which means they're more likely to come back for more. With zero lindens a poor new user can't even get free stuff in the junkyard since that costs 1 linden each. This may turn out to be a bad move for LL's business and should be reinstated quickly.

I think removing the 250 L at start was a good idea, because now you don't have to use a credit card or a mobile phone and it will get alot more people in-game.

No it means harder for others get items at frist start now! Duh!

Shikiso,

This is a question for you as a very new resident. First are you an alt? If the answer is no, have you met a lot of other new residents when you entered welcome island? If you don't know what an alt is you are not one. Finally how are you supporting you gaming experience?

PS welcome to SL and especially welcome to the forums.

If SL didn't have such vast freebie dispensing locations (Yadni's Junkyard, GNUbie, The Shelter, etc.) that would be true. Stopping the signup bonus and new resident 50L$ stipends while opening up the registration floodgate, besides the age checking issue, is a great move by LL!

It'll tighten up the belts of quality on content while increasing the amount of L$ bought. Sure, it's getting into deeper water while turning up the global inworld sink or swim factor but it's better to burn bright than rust away when it's something that's online based and evolving fast like SL.

If I read it correctly, a new user starts with L$0, which means they won't even be able to afford a L$1 box of goodies at one of the many freebie locations you describe.

So... to even buy one of those, they'll have very little choice but to go to a money tree or a camping chair... be given free money... introduced to the 'money for nothing' principle, and go completely against the 'capitalists' who have forced people into this very thing, by having battled for the removal of money handouts - this being the first one no doubt.

Rather interesting when they shoot themselves in the foot this way, isn't it, proving once again that their form of capitalism is not the answer.

Lewis

Agreed, with the new boom in free broke accounts. I'd imagine the popular freebie hoards will switch over to becoming really 0L$ freebies. Some might not but the population is large enough that plenty of residents will run such locations without dwell bonus.

I'd have to take the opposing view, but opt-out on arguing over, on how well capitalism works in SL. The ability to break even, make a profit or even develop a commercial product has done more for SL then any other driving force. Agreed it gets old hearing it day after day, the business week image on the starting page really has to be archived.

Content should be what makes broke-ass new residents buy L$ to own the commercial quality content. Or they can go off to the bad lands and join broke sandbox tribes. Or quit. So basically SL retains the creative people and/or those driven enough to eek out a profit and loses most of those looking for a mmorpg. Fine by me.

Removing the 250 does make it hard for someone who's starting.

Perhaps they can have 2 versions of the free service.
1. No info, but no 250L (poke around free account)
2. Full info + Cred card info gets the 250L (poke around plus try out the bells and whistles account), can leave off the stipend if they want.

"I wish people would stop suggesting ideas that would take the fun out of SL."

Unless something is done, a lot of land-owners and content creators will no-longer be able to make ends meet in sl (land for clubs, entertainment venues and shops costs money), and when that happens I think you'll find SL even less fun than a stipend-less SL.

There are only two people who can pay for entertainment in SL; the people who provide it, or the people who enjoy it. Who do you think should pay for it, all things being fair?

Musuko.

I kinda think it was uneccassary. The problem with any type of economical system is Economics in itself is flawed in 1 major way. It forgets to factor in Human Nature and thats where alot of the problem on LindEx is. They could get rid of the stipends but they will never truly balance the L. Basically its a back and forth run thru of people whining when you make 1 move then whining when it goes in the other extreme and having you put back what you previously took out.

The influx of L really i do not and have not ever viewed as a problem. Freebies are a great learning tool. But i think its kinda bogus to say sink or swim for the basic accounts then. Its kinda like sink or sink. They have to buy L to upload stuff or get stuff from money tree's/ camping chairs. It slows content development. Where a newbie could technically upload stuff weekly now they are sunk and have to find a way to suplement it.

Would the linden's also please tell me has the L$'s value gone up since you made this action? With the money taken out now has anything really changed? I could point blame till im blue in the face but most of us know the real problem and its something that cant be fixed. I'd like to point out the only way for LL to actually get the L to stabalize is to set it at a static value. Its all really pointless as you can kind of see from looking at lindex since the action was made. Take out alot of L nothing happens. Take out all of the L coming in well you end up with 2 things then lol. Firstly would be things going in the other extreme this may take some time sure but when the people that control the vast amounts of L already are totally in control and have one of the few means of buying L then well you run into trouble lol. Secondly Things just stay the same and continue on a downward spiral.

There is no balancing it unless LL steps in and does it.

Well the point here i think Musuko is they rely to heavily on the transfer of L to USD or R/L currency to cover themselves. Before you get into this you should be able to afford to do this without the use of L > USD. To many people get into SL for money and frankly Most of the places you described have become a tedium of people showing up for Free L. I myself am one of the owners of a Club in SL called Club Republik. And Guess What? I actually dont do it to try and get a profit. We set out not to in fact we intended to run at a loss.

We wanted to make a place that people werent showing up in droves just for free cash with the promise of events for a best costume or something. In fact we only hold 3 events a week. We arnt in it for popularity etc and we put alot more time and effort into its build then many of the places Described that do it and want to then cover themselves with L > USD. We built/scripted everything ourselves at Republik something that is rarely ever done in the club scenes/ entertainment venues in SL.

You claim its gunna be less fun when they cant keep up hmmmmm. Frankly i think it wont change. Sure it may drive some of these places to close but why were they there in the first place?

"Before you get into this you should be able to afford to do this without the use of L > USD."

I can, but that's backup.

Without the earnings I can convert from Lindens to dollars, I am essentially PAYING to provide other people with game content.

"we intended to run at a loss."

That's all very well, but not everyone is willing to pay $600 US a year (my expenses; tier, vendor rental space, etc) to WORK for other people's enjoyment. To enjoy the fruits of someone else's hard work and time, then expect THEM to pay for it, seems rather ungrateful to me.

"We built/scripted everything ourselves at Republik something that is rarely ever done in the club scenes/ entertainment venues in SL."

Go to a place called Tartarus and you'll find I've done the same.

"You claim its gunna be less fun when they cant keep up hmmmmm. Frankly i think it wont change. Sure it may drive some of these places to close but why were they there in the first place?"

Gunna?

Why were they there in the first place? Not every venue or business that tries to cover its costs is there just to make profit. They may simply be trying not to make a loss.

Musuko.

Oh good, another stipend/L$ thread.


You guys really need to go on vacation, seriously.

It's not a simple split like that: the people who do provide it often enjoy providing it, in some cases more than the people who use it enjoy using it.

Btw, have all your posts really been about US$600 a year? About (where I am) 90p a day? Gee. I'd give up a cup of coffee per day to get to be a game designer, or a nightclub manager.

Its not expecting them to full pay for it but they shouldnt rely on it as a source of income. Most get into stuff to profit not to cover tier. There is a vast difference between the two. I brought up republik as a stand still and i said its a rarity in club scenes and entertainment venues to see stuff self made and self scripted. Its your choice to make the content and you dont need to pay to make it or Buy the land or pay a monthly fee if you dont want to. The problem is people getting into SL directly to try to make money. They provide content expecting to make it or would crumble if they didnt cover tier from the L > USD.

That right there is the problem is people get in and cant cover their tier with money they have in real life. It may not apply to you but alot of people do this and that causes the problem on Lindex. They wanna sell the L fast that they have to cover their tier and sell it fast even if it hurts a vast majority of the people. Alot of these people then turn around and complain which really is stupid. Ruin SL for everyone else so they can cover their tier is basically what it comes down to. Do you feel that to be right of them to do hmm?

Second Life is not here just so someone can make a quick buck and alot more people need to realize that before things ever get any better. Difference between me and you your here to cover yourself where as i put any money made back out into SL. Not to cover tier. And its your choice to be premium and have tier you opt to do so to get land not make items. So they gotta pay like a dollar or 2 for something you may of spent like 10 cents making? Hmmmmm fair trade off isnt it? Its so you can cover your tier. Nothing more nothing less. They essentially have to pay because you opted to take the time to make something and you opted to take out tier.

So yes i feel its right that you pay because it was your choice to pay.

I'm not so sure about them not looking at the whole, Lewis. I see some options here that weren't before, and some good things that came of this.

1) That completely free basic account not having a bonus is a good thing. No more something for nothing.

2) Since they are not having to pay for the account, they are free to drop $1-$2 into the Lindex and get a couple hundred L$. More than enough to buy those 1L$ freebies (for those that even charge. YadNi doesn't), and to get started in SL.

3) There are the moneytrees in SL. Designed to help newbies and promote exploration through SL. While looking as something for nothing, they attract buisness which is one reason buisnesses use them. The other is just to be a humanitarian.

4) Not having a starting money (unless you buy some) nor having a steady stipend of free money forces new residents to look at how to make money. Usually by creation and selling that creation, making SL a bit bigger and better on every step.

But..

5) Alt accounts paid with the $9.95 should get a signup bonus. I mean they are paying for it after all.

6) Also, even though LL has expressed that they are following all internet regulations concerning minors within SL, I still have reservations on the no-agecheck with the removal of credit card verification.

#5 and #6 are personal opinions though. #5 is on how much profit LL wants to make over making fair trade practices to consumers. If they offered more L$ with piad accounts, they offer a better service imo. #6 is a legal concern that LL feels they have covered, so I will leave that to them to handle.

*tosses her .02L$ on the table*

~Jessy

That is not necessarily a good thing. Giving someone something for nothing, in order that they'll later pay you for something more, is a pretty standard and well-adopted marketing tactic.

As others have pointed out, all the L$1 places have been ruined, and they can't simply switch to L$0 because they do actually have a business model in there. And how would you feel if you were ordered by someone else to drop all your prices by L$1?



This is the micropayments fallacy - "it's only $1 so why does that matter?" The actual reality, though, is that even if a site asks only 10c for access, its popularity level absolutely crashes down compared to a free site. It makes sense if you consider opportunity cost; number of free things you can get = infinite, number of 1c things you can get = not infinite, infinity - not infinity = big difference.

People will resist paying anything, especially if they feel they've been "baited and switched" by the promise of a free account.



And most of the moneytrees in SL are already plucked bare. I've also been told people are reluctant to put them up, because it means they get IMs saying "there is no money on your tree but since you have one you must want to give newbies money so give me some plz".



If only that were true! "Making SL a bit bigger and better" is quite a challenge given the high quality of the things already in SL. Most newbies are going to have to practice for quite a while before they get good enough to make something they can seriously sell, and although yes, some of them will be prepared to do that with absolutely no reward, I expect there'll be more who would do that if they were given a little to start and get involved with. Plus, also of course, giving the L$0 gives them the perception that the economy is just for other people, and that no other newbies (their most likely market!) have any money either, so they'll tend to give their stuff away!

Yes, at first glance this change seems to be supporting three things: camping chairs, money trees and griefing.

As an aside -- if this is the case then why don't people get on YadNi's case about reselling freebies like they did/do with Jamie?

Having the initial L$ 250 and being able to buy (in retrospect useless and ugly) things, along with someone nice enough to show me around and teach me the basics, is what got me used to having to pay for things and resulted in me putting money into SL since then. If the basic account hadn't been there, or if I had to spend however little money on something I hadn't even experienced yet then I would have probably dropped out within my first week.

So you can decide for yourself whether giving me $0.70 to entice me to spend $75 over the following month was a bad deal or not.

That said, the forums feel much too hostile for my taste, but I just wanted to pitch in as someone who's still relatively new and who did appreciate having something to start out with.

To be honest this whole "no one should be getting something for nothing" mantra is complete and increasingly annoying bull. Especially on the 'net -- wonder how many of these chanting it get recurring pangs of guilt on their every trip to Google, wikipedia and thousand web pages providing them with all sort of service, knowledge and materials, absolutely free of charge and typically at someone else's expense?

Can't even claim the "but i pay the net connection cost' because hey, you do the same to participate in SL...

some things are provided in life at no cost, when it's in the best interest of business owner to do so. ever saw these "attendance for ladies: free" signs in night clubs? Maybe should demand getting rid of that practice too because "business is supposed to make profit"...

Exactly.

I spoke at Show and Tell to one of the first "L$0 newbies". They've said they enjoyed SL and they're keen to stay and learn to build stuff, and possibly even go Premium. When they were talking to me about what they wanted to build, they said they'd been making novelties and they were going to - and this is their exact words - "be evil and charge".

I pointed out that charging for things wasn't supposed to be "evil". The idea of the SL economy is, you get to be involved in it.

They responded that they knew it wasn't really evil, but that it would feel that way because having felt the sting of L$0, they didn't want to impose it on others.

Yes - this change has now discouraged new players from being involved in the economy at all.

"It's not a simple split like that: the people who do provide it often enjoy providing it, in some cases more than the people who use it enjoy using it."

See, here's the thing. You say that if I enjoy making the product/venue, I shouldn't mind paying for it...and I am saying if people enjoy using the product/venue, they shouldn't mind paying for it. Yet you don't seem to agree with my angle. Why?

"Btw, have all your posts really been about US$600 a year? About (where I am) 90p a day? Gee. I'd give up a cup of coffee per day to get to be a game designer, or a nightclub manager."

I gave my own costs as an example. I'm in the same place you are (it's 89p actually. ), and it's not much money. But remember, there are sim-owners out there paying nearly $2,400 a year, and though £3.56 a day isn't too much for us, $6.57 a day is a lot for Americans; £3.56 is less than an hour of minimum wage in Britain ($4.25 for under 22s, £5.05 for overs), but $6.57 is more than an hour of minimum wage in America (Federal minimum wage is $5.15 an hour, although it varies in some states: http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm).

I don't think it is fair for a few people to foot the bill for something that a lot of people are enjoying.

Musuko.

"Yes - this change has now discouraged new players from being involved in the economy at all. "

That's inductive reasoning: one observed newbie feels discouraged, therefore all newbies feel discouraged.

It's obviously a poor conclusion to make.

Musuko.

Because if the people who made it enjoyed it more than the people who use it, which often they do, then if we're operating on a pay-to-enjoy basis then logically they should be the ones to pay more. Yet they're asking those others to pay more.



Well, I was referring to your example, so naturally things won't work out as well for other people.



Again, it becomes fairer if the people who are being asked to foot the bill are enjoying it more - and if those other people who come to enjoy it, add even further to the enjoyment of the people paying the bill.