Second Life Forums Archive - Any probs w/ buying land w/o an official deed?

Paulismyname Bunin

Registered User

Join date: 29 Nov 2005

Posts: 243

03-13-2006 14:10

Desmond, I already have in a limited way. I own half a sim or thereabouts and it is not all about land speculation.

I have been meaning to look you up in world as I am interested in what you are doing as well no disrespect intended, again pardon my interest. But it is late tonight (GMT Time) and I have 3 or 4 demanding first life business days ahead. Later this week (weekend) I will search/drop you an IM

Merlyn Bailly

owner, AVALON GALLERIA

Join date: 7 Sep 2005

Posts: 576

03-13-2006 14:17

From: Gabriel Tackleberry

IS ANYONE REALLY FOOLISH ENOUGH TO DO THIS? Trust the souls who crave to dominate and monopolize all of the digital nothingness?

RENT! And dont rent from anyone who is trying to acquire all of the land.

There is _ALWAYS_ someone stupid enough to do the dumbest damn thing anyone could possibly think of... generally because they're young and stupid, and hormones swamp rationality in anyone under, but most especially the male of the species.

The son of one of my dad's good friends was nicknamed "Flick" (short for "afflicted"

due to momentary idiocy when he was 15 -- he wanted to know what a "cherry bomb" sounded like, so he whacked it with a hammer WHILE HOLDING IT DOWN ON THE CONCRETE OF THEIR BACK PATIO. For those who aren't aware, a "cherry bomb" is, basically, 1/4 of a stick of dynamite. He managed to keep two fingers on the left hand, lost one on the right, I believe.

ONE MORE TIME: If your name does not appear in the LAND OPTIONS window as OWNER -- you do _NOT_ own the land, no matter what the sleazeball you "bought" it from tells you.

_____________________

SL used to be a game -- now it's a corporate advertising/marketing platform.

Desmond Shang

Guvnah of Caledon

Join date: 14 Mar 2005

Posts: 5,250

03-13-2006 15:48

From: Paulismyname Bunin

Desmond, I already have in a limited way. I own half a sim or thereabouts and it is not all about land speculation.

I have been meaning to look you up in world as I am interested in what you are doing as well no disrespect intended, again pardon my interest. But it is late tonight (GMT Time) and I have 3 or 4 demanding first life business days ahead. Later this week (weekend) I will search/drop you an IM

Ah, well done and feel free to look me up any time. Though you may find, everything I have ever done is fairly 'par for the course' in Second Life - very few original ideas here (yet).

And, you might find that West Trade Imports and the Caledon sim are fairly transparent business models; whatever I might say won't dress up the obvious reality of it very much.

As for half a sim - you are already into the fray, deep! Though it's not always the amount of land. I suspect that the right content creator, with the right product at the right time - could show *all* of us how it's done will little more than a basic account and some vision.

But, in reference to the last post and the obvious truth therein, at least I still have all my fingers...

_____________________

Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!

Myrrh Massiel

Registered User

Join date: 7 Oct 2005

Posts: 362

03-13-2006 16:59

From: someone

I'll jump back in to say that, as a realtively new SLer looking for land, it's been challenging to find something I like.

I'd like a bit more of a balance. Many of the themed sims right now severely restrict the participatory nature of SL. I get the challenge for the sim owner and I realize that for some this is mostly about commerce, but in my opinion one of the exciting things about SL is the possibility of this creative participation which, when visions are similar enough, can produce some spectacular virtual objects and situations.

Frank, Cosy Island might be just the thing you're looking for: a beautiful residential environment, community first with commerce a distant second. Right now we're two very full sims, Cosy Home and Cosy Cove, but we're taking reservations on our soon-to-be-added third sim, Cosy Shire, and already have a fourth sim under development. I've been an extremely satisfied landowner for my past six months of watching our community grow all the richer - IM me in-world and i'll gladly give you a balloon tour.

Despite the chronic naysayers damning private sims' lack of mainland deeding and sales tools, under good management it's really no different from owning on the mainland, just that our 'tier' (monthly fee) and trust are invested in our sim manager rather than Linden Lab. The tradeoff is what private sims offer which one can't get on the mainland: namely zoning, planning, and other enforceable-covenant quality controls. The mainland has some fantastic builds, but anytime land changes hand one risks the environment neighbors have worked so hard to build being spoiled by a malicious, indifferent, or oblivious upstart - very difficult conditions under which to sustain a living community with any longevity.

Ellipses purged for clarity.

Michael Seraph

Second Life Resident

Join date: 9 Nov 2004

Posts: 849

03-13-2006 17:50

From: Merlyn Bailly

ONE MORE TIME: If your name does not appear in the LAND OPTIONS window as OWNER -- you do _NOT_ own the land, no matter what the sleazeball you "bought" it from tells you.

Odd, my group appears as the owner. Does that mean my group owns the land? It's pretty offensive that you jump to the stupid conclusion that the person who deeded the property to my group was a sleazeball and that somehow I didn't know what I was doing when I paid for it. Before buying the land (yes I said buying, get past it) I was provided with a notecard detailing the zoning restrictions and another notecard detailing the deeding process. I went into the process fully informed and with both eyes open. Like I said before, I've been quite happy with the situation. I also own land on the mainland, and frankly, other than the built in hassles of not being able to list your land for sale easily and needing to have a representative of the sim transfer the title when selling the plot, the day to day experiences have been boringly similar.

Loniki Loudon

Homes By Loniki

Join date: 5 Dec 2005

Posts: 176

03-14-2006 14:50

From: Anshe Chung

I still remember in 1995, this was long time ago about the time I study in Beijing and the Internet just arrive in China. Then some people in Western countries tried to publish information about one USA organization called "Scientology". It only took 24 hour for Scientology censor the Internet in western countries. They sent the threats of lawsuits to ISPs, made the intimidation and used the power and the money. Only one copy in the world survived: the copy our friend Michael put on one server in Beijing. Of course Scientology also made the threat attempts, but in China they don't have the power. Then the whole week so many Americans and Europeens fled to the Chinese Internet to enjoy freedom of information that the Internet connection from USA to China was totally congest. I think this has been document somewhere as "Scientology vs. the Net".

People should not be censored, neither through the firewall, nor through intimidation of the ISP nor by the government agency tactic like white noise.

At least China government only "dictates" on its own people and does not try dictate people in other countries how they have to live. But I agree, China still has many thing to learn. Maybe soon the government will send delegation to Abu Graib or Guantanamo to better study the "democratic legal society"

Lol, great answers! Anyone old enough in the USA see's beyond all the government BS anyways. People who want to flaunt freedoms but disregard things like the Patriot Act, or want to think the government is all about the will of the people but fail to notice it almost always follows where the money is... And your right, I know of no islamic countries China is trying to force a democratic lifestyle on. But on the other hand and War... theres really big money in it if you get beyond the thousands that die annually... Please excuse my fellow country dwellers, we have as much control on our government as you do. From what I have seen, the Chinese Government has made really excellent choices the last ten years and I look forward to see the offering of economical automobiles that are energy efficient along with everything else that flows into the US from China.

Merlyn Bailly

owner, AVALON GALLERIA

Join date: 7 Sep 2005

Posts: 576

03-15-2006 08:36

From: Michael Seraph

There are over a hundred island sims where land is "sold". There doesn't seem to have been many problems with it. I've "owned" my land in Dreamland for 7 months or so and have had excellent service. It's beautiful, the zoning is just what I wanted, and any questions or problems are dealt with quickly and politely by Dreamland staff. The tier fees are more flexible than on the mainland too. So far the sim owners out there have lived up to their obligations. Even so, after the initial cost of the plot (still much cheaper than similar waterfront property on the mainland) and the tier costs, it's pretty much the same as renting, except I can sell the lease to some one else when I choose to move.

That's very nice -- but YOU ARE STILL NOT THE LEGAL OWNER OF RECORD.

_____________________

SL used to be a game -- now it's a corporate advertising/marketing platform.

Sabrina Doolittle

Registered User

Join date: 15 Nov 2005

Posts: 214

03-15-2006 13:05

From: Merlyn Bailly

That's very nice -- but YOU ARE STILL NOT THE LEGAL OWNER OF RECORD.

And? So? Some people are just not going to prioritise that with the same weight you are.

My land is deeded to a group, of which I am the sole officer. Most private sim plot purchases work the same way. On land I rent (from Hiro Queso) and land I've purchased (from Raziel Vesperia), that's how it works.

These are both established sim owners with considerable number of sims. I don't think they're going anywhere any time soon, any more than I think LL is going anywhere any time soon. (Actually, were I to look at funding, investment and ROI, I'd probably decide that LL was in more danger of closing up shop than either of these two land owners.)

Its a game. Or a platform. Or whatever you want to call it or however you want to see it. It bits, bytes and pixels. Its all air, and none of it is guaranteed. I get quite a lot of enjoyment and a fair bit of cash out of my $70 a month investment. If it all disappears tomorrow, I'm ahead of the game financially and had more than enough fun for my money.

Cheyenne Marquez

Registered User

Join date: 19 Sep 2005

Posts: 940

03-15-2006 23:16

From: Loniki Loudon

Lol, great answers! Anyone old enough in the USA see's beyond all the government BS anyways. People who want to flaunt freedoms but disregard things like the Patriot Act, or want to think the government is all about the will of the people but fail to notice it almost always follows where the money is... And your right, I know of no islamic countries China is trying to force a democratic lifestyle on. But on the other hand and War... theres really big money in it if you get beyond the thousands that die annually... Please excuse my fellow country dwellers, we have as much control on our government as you do. From what I have seen, the Chinese Government has made really excellent choices the last ten years and I look forward to see the offering of economical automobiles that are energy efficient along with everything else that flows into the US from China.

You have no concept of what really goes on behind the great wall of China do you?...

...but you have no problem whatsoever putting down your own country, yet praise another of which you have the slightest knowledge.

Sad.

Martin Magpie

Catherine Cotton

Join date: 13 Nov 2004

Posts: 1,826

03-15-2006 23:50

From: frank Foley

I'm not sure what the term is for this, but I've been land shopping and seeing quite a few places that will "sell" a plot of land and you pay the tier fees directly to them. The way I understand it, the buyer doesn't hold an offical deed recognized by Linden Labs.

Are there any problems with this down the road? How can the buyer be assured that the deed will be honored at a later time?

Any thoughts on this facet of land buying?

Yeah, it's called renting. If you buy land on an island your renting it from the owner. That owner is recognized by LL as the sole owner. If you buy land on the mainland you buy it outright. Paying somone else's tier is renting the land.

A whole lot of double talk and such going on these days but I call em like I see em. Either you own it or you don't. If I buy an island I can resell plots as many times as I wish. I can sell it once the buyer can sell it someone else but then I have to go in and change the name on the property to their name. Again it's realy rented. In the end the island owner reserves the right to throw everyone off the island and reclaim all the land any time they wish. If it went to LL who do you think they would side with?

Cat

_____________________

Michael Seraph

Second Life Resident

Join date: 9 Nov 2004

Posts: 849

03-16-2006 11:34

From: Merlyn Bailly

That's very nice -- but YOU ARE STILL NOT THE LEGAL OWNER OF RECORD.

And neither is anyone who buys land on the mainland for that matter. You are buying the right to lease space on a server owned by Linden Labs. You don't "own" a thing really.

Loniki Loudon

Homes By Loniki

Join date: 5 Dec 2005

Posts: 176

03-16-2006 20:32

From: Cheyenne Marquez

You have no concept of what really goes on behind the great wall of China do you?...

...but you have no problem whatsoever putting down your own country, yet praise another of which you have the slightest knowledge.

Sad.

I don't support the current leadership in WA. I also don't support ppl knocking another countrie's policies because we have plenty of things people can throw back in our faces. The only thing sad is you not seeing the point I was making.

But back to the real topic, protections in these situations are a real problem regardless of what country the actual land owner resides. The system in created where someone with a large pocketbook is required to buy an island in the first place. But how many are actually going to have an entire island to themselves... So they rent or sell.
As it stands now there is no legal recourse because it would be too expensive to be worthwhile. People complain about land barons but the system creates them otherwise we would see islands that were a lot smaller.

Any probs w/ buying land w/o an official deed?
Paulismyname Bunin Registered User Join date: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 243	03-13-2006 14:10 Desmond, I already have in a limited way. I own half a sim or thereabouts and it is not all about land speculation. I have been meaning to look you up in world as I am interested in what you are doing as well no disrespect intended, again pardon my interest. But it is late tonight (GMT Time) and I have 3 or 4 demanding first life business days ahead. Later this week (weekend) I will search/drop you an IM
Merlyn Bailly owner, AVALON GALLERIA Join date: 7 Sep 2005 Posts: 576	03-13-2006 14:17 From: Gabriel Tackleberry IS ANYONE REALLY FOOLISH ENOUGH TO DO THIS? Trust the souls who crave to dominate and monopolize all of the digital nothingness? RENT! And dont rent from anyone who is trying to acquire all of the land. There is _ALWAYS_ someone stupid enough to do the dumbest damn thing anyone could possibly think of... generally because they're young and stupid, and hormones swamp rationality in anyone under, but most especially the male of the species. The son of one of my dad's good friends was nicknamed "Flick" (short for "afflicted" due to momentary idiocy when he was 15 -- he wanted to know what a "cherry bomb" sounded like, so he whacked it with a hammer WHILE HOLDING IT DOWN ON THE CONCRETE OF THEIR BACK PATIO. For those who aren't aware, a "cherry bomb" is, basically, 1/4 of a stick of dynamite. He managed to keep two fingers on the left hand, lost one on the right, I believe. ONE MORE TIME: If your name does not appear in the LAND OPTIONS window as OWNER -- you do _NOT_ own the land, no matter what the sleazeball you "bought" it from tells you. _____________________ SL used to be a game -- now it's a corporate advertising/marketing platform.
Desmond Shang Guvnah of Caledon Join date: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 5,250	03-13-2006 15:48 From: Paulismyname Bunin Desmond, I already have in a limited way. I own half a sim or thereabouts and it is not all about land speculation. I have been meaning to look you up in world as I am interested in what you are doing as well no disrespect intended, again pardon my interest. But it is late tonight (GMT Time) and I have 3 or 4 demanding first life business days ahead. Later this week (weekend) I will search/drop you an IM Ah, well done and feel free to look me up any time. Though you may find, everything I have ever done is fairly 'par for the course' in Second Life - very few original ideas here (yet). And, you might find that West Trade Imports and the Caledon sim are fairly transparent business models; whatever I might say won't dress up the obvious reality of it very much. As for half a sim - you are already into the fray, deep! Though it's not always the amount of land. I suspect that the right content creator, with the right product at the right time - could show all of us how it's done will little more than a basic account and some vision. But, in reference to the last post and the obvious truth therein, at least I still have all my fingers... _____________________ Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!
Myrrh Massiel Registered User Join date: 7 Oct 2005 Posts: 362	03-13-2006 16:59 From: someone I'll jump back in to say that, as a realtively new SLer looking for land, it's been challenging to find something I like. I'd like a bit more of a balance. Many of the themed sims right now severely restrict the participatory nature of SL. I get the challenge for the sim owner and I realize that for some this is mostly about commerce, but in my opinion one of the exciting things about SL is the possibility of this creative participation which, when visions are similar enough, can produce some spectacular virtual objects and situations. Frank, Cosy Island might be just the thing you're looking for: a beautiful residential environment, community first with commerce a distant second. Right now we're two very full sims, Cosy Home and Cosy Cove, but we're taking reservations on our soon-to-be-added third sim, Cosy Shire, and already have a fourth sim under development. I've been an extremely satisfied landowner for my past six months of watching our community grow all the richer - IM me in-world and i'll gladly give you a balloon tour. Despite the chronic naysayers damning private sims' lack of mainland deeding and sales tools, under good management it's really no different from owning on the mainland, just that our 'tier' (monthly fee) and trust are invested in our sim manager rather than Linden Lab. The tradeoff is what private sims offer which one can't get on the mainland: namely zoning, planning, and other enforceable-covenant quality controls. The mainland has some fantastic builds, but anytime land changes hand one risks the environment neighbors have worked so hard to build being spoiled by a malicious, indifferent, or oblivious upstart - very difficult conditions under which to sustain a living community with any longevity. Ellipses purged for clarity.
Michael Seraph Second Life Resident Join date: 9 Nov 2004 Posts: 849	03-13-2006 17:50 From: Merlyn Bailly ONE MORE TIME: If your name does not appear in the LAND OPTIONS window as OWNER -- you do _NOT_ own the land, no matter what the sleazeball you "bought" it from tells you. Odd, my group appears as the owner. Does that mean my group owns the land? It's pretty offensive that you jump to the stupid conclusion that the person who deeded the property to my group was a sleazeball and that somehow I didn't know what I was doing when I paid for it. Before buying the land (yes I said buying, get past it) I was provided with a notecard detailing the zoning restrictions and another notecard detailing the deeding process. I went into the process fully informed and with both eyes open. Like I said before, I've been quite happy with the situation. I also own land on the mainland, and frankly, other than the built in hassles of not being able to list your land for sale easily and needing to have a representative of the sim transfer the title when selling the plot, the day to day experiences have been boringly similar.
Loniki Loudon Homes By Loniki Join date: 5 Dec 2005 Posts: 176	03-14-2006 14:50 From: Anshe Chung I still remember in 1995, this was long time ago about the time I study in Beijing and the Internet just arrive in China. Then some people in Western countries tried to publish information about one USA organization called "Scientology". It only took 24 hour for Scientology censor the Internet in western countries. They sent the threats of lawsuits to ISPs, made the intimidation and used the power and the money. Only one copy in the world survived: the copy our friend Michael put on one server in Beijing. Of course Scientology also made the threat attempts, but in China they don't have the power. Then the whole week so many Americans and Europeens fled to the Chinese Internet to enjoy freedom of information that the Internet connection from USA to China was totally congest. I think this has been document somewhere as "Scientology vs. the Net". People should not be censored, neither through the firewall, nor through intimidation of the ISP nor by the government agency tactic like white noise. At least China government only "dictates" on its own people and does not try dictate people in other countries how they have to live. But I agree, China still has many thing to learn. Maybe soon the government will send delegation to Abu Graib or Guantanamo to better study the "democratic legal society" Lol, great answers! Anyone old enough in the USA see's beyond all the government BS anyways. People who want to flaunt freedoms but disregard things like the Patriot Act, or want to think the government is all about the will of the people but fail to notice it almost always follows where the money is... And your right, I know of no islamic countries China is trying to force a democratic lifestyle on. But on the other hand and War... theres really big money in it if you get beyond the thousands that die annually... Please excuse my fellow country dwellers, we have as much control on our government as you do. From what I have seen, the Chinese Government has made really excellent choices the last ten years and I look forward to see the offering of economical automobiles that are energy efficient along with everything else that flows into the US from China.
Merlyn Bailly owner, AVALON GALLERIA Join date: 7 Sep 2005 Posts: 576	03-15-2006 08:36 From: Michael Seraph There are over a hundred island sims where land is "sold". There doesn't seem to have been many problems with it. I've "owned" my land in Dreamland for 7 months or so and have had excellent service. It's beautiful, the zoning is just what I wanted, and any questions or problems are dealt with quickly and politely by Dreamland staff. The tier fees are more flexible than on the mainland too. So far the sim owners out there have lived up to their obligations. Even so, after the initial cost of the plot (still much cheaper than similar waterfront property on the mainland) and the tier costs, it's pretty much the same as renting, except I can sell the lease to some one else when I choose to move. That's very nice -- but YOU ARE STILL NOT THE LEGAL OWNER OF RECORD. _____________________ SL used to be a game -- now it's a corporate advertising/marketing platform.
Sabrina Doolittle Registered User Join date: 15 Nov 2005 Posts: 214	03-15-2006 13:05 From: Merlyn Bailly That's very nice -- but YOU ARE STILL NOT THE LEGAL OWNER OF RECORD. And? So? Some people are just not going to prioritise that with the same weight you are. My land is deeded to a group, of which I am the sole officer. Most private sim plot purchases work the same way. On land I rent (from Hiro Queso) and land I've purchased (from Raziel Vesperia), that's how it works. These are both established sim owners with considerable number of sims. I don't think they're going anywhere any time soon, any more than I think LL is going anywhere any time soon. (Actually, were I to look at funding, investment and ROI, I'd probably decide that LL was in more danger of closing up shop than either of these two land owners.) Its a game. Or a platform. Or whatever you want to call it or however you want to see it. It bits, bytes and pixels. Its all air, and none of it is guaranteed. I get quite a lot of enjoyment and a fair bit of cash out of my $70 a month investment. If it all disappears tomorrow, I'm ahead of the game financially and had more than enough fun for my money.
Cheyenne Marquez Registered User Join date: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 940	03-15-2006 23:16 From: Loniki Loudon Lol, great answers! Anyone old enough in the USA see's beyond all the government BS anyways. People who want to flaunt freedoms but disregard things like the Patriot Act, or want to think the government is all about the will of the people but fail to notice it almost always follows where the money is... And your right, I know of no islamic countries China is trying to force a democratic lifestyle on. But on the other hand and War... theres really big money in it if you get beyond the thousands that die annually... Please excuse my fellow country dwellers, we have as much control on our government as you do. From what I have seen, the Chinese Government has made really excellent choices the last ten years and I look forward to see the offering of economical automobiles that are energy efficient along with everything else that flows into the US from China. You have no concept of what really goes on behind the great wall of China do you?... ...but you have no problem whatsoever putting down your own country, yet praise another of which you have the slightest knowledge. Sad.
Martin Magpie Catherine Cotton Join date: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,826	03-15-2006 23:50 From: frank Foley I'm not sure what the term is for this, but I've been land shopping and seeing quite a few places that will "sell" a plot of land and you pay the tier fees directly to them. The way I understand it, the buyer doesn't hold an offical deed recognized by Linden Labs. Are there any problems with this down the road? How can the buyer be assured that the deed will be honored at a later time? Any thoughts on this facet of land buying? Yeah, it's called renting. If you buy land on an island your renting it from the owner. That owner is recognized by LL as the sole owner. If you buy land on the mainland you buy it outright. Paying somone else's tier is renting the land. A whole lot of double talk and such going on these days but I call em like I see em. Either you own it or you don't. If I buy an island I can resell plots as many times as I wish. I can sell it once the buyer can sell it someone else but then I have to go in and change the name on the property to their name. Again it's realy rented. In the end the island owner reserves the right to throw everyone off the island and reclaim all the land any time they wish. If it went to LL who do you think they would side with? Cat _____________________
Michael Seraph Second Life Resident Join date: 9 Nov 2004 Posts: 849	03-16-2006 11:34 From: Merlyn Bailly That's very nice -- but YOU ARE STILL NOT THE LEGAL OWNER OF RECORD. And neither is anyone who buys land on the mainland for that matter. You are buying the right to lease space on a server owned by Linden Labs. You don't "own" a thing really.
Loniki Loudon Homes By Loniki Join date: 5 Dec 2005 Posts: 176	03-16-2006 20:32 From: Cheyenne Marquez You have no concept of what really goes on behind the great wall of China do you?... ...but you have no problem whatsoever putting down your own country, yet praise another of which you have the slightest knowledge. Sad. I don't support the current leadership in WA. I also don't support ppl knocking another countrie's policies because we have plenty of things people can throw back in our faces. The only thing sad is you not seeing the point I was making. But back to the real topic, protections in these situations are a real problem regardless of what country the actual land owner resides. The system in created where someone with a large pocketbook is required to buy an island in the first place. But how many are actually going to have an entire island to themselves... So they rent or sell. As it stands now there is no legal recourse because it would be too expensive to be worthwhile. People complain about land barons but the system creates them otherwise we would see islands that were a lot smaller.

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Any probs w/ buying land w/o an official deed?