Any probs w/ buying land w/o an official deed?

I'm not sure what the term is for this, but I've been land shopping and seeing quite a few places that will "sell" a plot of land and you pay the tier fees directly to them. The way I understand it, the buyer doesn't hold an offical deed recognized by Linden Labs.

Are there any problems with this down the road? How can the buyer be assured that the deed will be honored at a later time?

Any thoughts on this facet of land buying?

You are correct.

I would be willing to bet there will be big problems with this down the road.
There can be no assurances.


I would seriously consider renting. The tier fees are the same, and you have no up front charges. This is ideal, as you need no assurances that your "deed" will be honored at a later date. When it's time to move you simply pack your things, and go.

most of the people who do a structer like that (hiro.nexus,anshe etc) do it because they own islands and private islands cant be tier off through linden lab.. most of them are also very professional as far as holding there side of agreements as long as you hold yours. Most of there land diffrent lands come with diffrent zoneing rules. as long as you follow them there really nothing to worry about..

but if your worried then look into the people that the land would come from.. a few have websites, and chances are other people rent from them doesnt hurt to talk to other people or even the person selling the land..

buying land through this method is very common so to find the answer you want shoulnt be hard.

There are over a hundred island sims where land is "sold". There doesn't seem to have been many problems with it. I've "owned" my land in Dreamland for 7 months or so and have had excellent service. It's beautiful, the zoning is just what I wanted, and any questions or problems are dealt with quickly and politely by Dreamland staff. The tier fees are more flexible than on the mainland too. So far the sim owners out there have lived up to their obligations. Even so, after the initial cost of the plot (still much cheaper than similar waterfront property on the mainland) and the tier costs, it's pretty much the same as renting, except I can sell the lease to some one else when I choose to move.

I agree with Michael. I have lived on Azure Islands (and before that, Meins), which belong to Nexus Nash and Adam Zaius, for almost a year now. Like Michael's place, it's beautiful and zoned and perfect for me.

I "bought" my land. I can sell it whenever I like and keep the proceeds. I like that.

Yes, they could abscond with the land, and there would go my original six thousand L or whatever it was I put in a year ago. Of course I always knew that. And of course, I never expected that they would do so. And of course they haven't. LL itself could suddenly close up shop, too, but I'm not going to live my Second Life worrying about it. So I've had a year now of enjoying living there.

The earlier advice about talking to neighbors is a good tip. If you talked to me, for instance, I would encourage you to buy in Azure Islands with virtually no trepidation.

coco

P.S. And like Michael says, it's cheaper, too - land can be had on Azure Islands at $1 per square meter, I believe. You pay tier in Lindens (or dollars, maybe, if you want) to them, but you would be paying that to LL anyway.

As is traditional for me with this kind of thread, I'll also mention Neualtenburg, where you do get a deed; we've recently even installed a Nota Bene notary system to notarize them as well. (Our older system relies exclusely on the SL permissions system, which is "good enough", but we wished to add an additional way to authenticate deeds.)

More important for our purposes, you get a vote, as we're a democratic republic; buying land from the city is a little closer to the LL model than the Anshe model... which shouldn't be taken as me discouraging you from Anshe, or Hiro, or anyone else - far from it! Simply put, there's more options in SL than a casual glance would find, and you should investigate them all!

Yes, Neualtenburg is a brilliant example of working all that stuff out. I tried, but basically failed to come to any system that even moderately unconcerned people would deal with. With high quality land demand what it is these days, people went for the land first and read the rules later.

My Caledon sim is a Monarchy with a strong, land-holding Aristocracy. No deeds, no refunds, no democracy. Simple honesty. Because any sim owner in the islands can reclaim your land in... 2 clicks is it? Mute and ban aren't much more. Nobody's going to sue over even a few hundred USD in an online game.

But has anyone ever done anything so foolish to a land holder? Imagine a sim owner trashing their reputation, and therefore a 1000+ USD investment over a few hundred USD. I doubt anyone would be that dumb.



I'm setting up the land holders to be Stewards for a little while each if they want, just because conceptually it's too pathetic for me to run around like some sort of king.

They get control over events, a little bit of the State coffers, that sort of thing for a while and also get to answer questions. Not many questions lately because we are solid full with a waiting list almost a whole extra sim deep. I'll be setting up the first Steward soon... hey, the coronation balls and 'deposings' might make for some fun events

Maybe Neualtenburg would let us rent some land for a month, so we can dock a ship there and sell Caledon's wares from on board? Though I fear it may be a dry dock... might have to send an airship.

As with all investments, you should trust whom you invest with. In our case you are dealing with one real "Foreign Funded High Tech Enterprise" company in China (ANSHECHUNG Studios, Ltd.) with real office and currently 12 full time staff. Our Dreamland continent now exist since more than one year with more than 100 sims and I myself do business in Second Life since two year now. In addition, we are already profitable and neither rely on venture capital nor loans. Those familiar with foreign funded enterprise law in China also know the strict financial requirements and high minimum investment criteria (the hard cash on bank) that we had to meet.

Or you can propose a specific sort of "free trade deal". Or just personally buy a microplot/bid on one of the shop plots in the marketplace.

Anshe, I laughed out loud when I read that.......if your business was a limited company in either the UK or the USA I would agree with you (subject to limited liability) but China......well in real life I am a UK based Independent Financial Advisor. A couple of years ago I realised the potential for investing in both China and India for my clients but the rule of law does not imho exist there. In other words the law is what the Communist Party (China) or bureaucracy (India) tells you it is. Similar issues also apply to Russia. I would prefer not to loose my clients’ money by the risk of "legalised" retrospective undemocratic law (aka Yukos)

Having realised that point I still wanted to invest, there is no doubt that billions of people wanting a middle class life are forcing industrialization which is driving economic growth. But the only safe way to invest was to pick a sector of the market that has what these 2nd world countries want, but is subject to the rule of western law (UK, USA, and Australia)

So we went into natural resources, which is anything from rubber trees to uranium cake. And touchwood we have done very well, and it cannot be taken away from us as the miners are quoted in the UK the USA and Australia.

By the way, no part of this post should be construed to constitute financial advice in first life.

Finally you have a good reputation in Second Life, so please don’t take this personally. In fact I have been mulling over talking to you as I would really like half a sim in one place

Her enterprise is foreign funded.

Which means: if there is *any* trouble with China, she can re-incorporate in the UK or the USA (or almost anywhere) for the price of about three sims. I suspect she can afford that.

It would be a sad day for her Chinese employees but honestly, no barrier whatsoever for her business.


I won't reveal too many details about what I know of international business with China. But my personal rule of thumb is: money going into China = cooperation, money coming out = less than cooperation.

Anshe is putting money in. She is likely to be getting red carpet treatment from everyone involved there (save possibly a few licencing officials), and drowned with offers from people begging to be a part.

Please underdatnd that no one owns anything except Linden Lab. Under LL's terms of service you own absolutely nothing even if they say that have "sold" you virtual land. Please look at section 4.3, titled "4.3 All Data On Linden's Servers Are Subject to Deletion, Alteration or Transfer." which is too boring and legalistic to cite here. The general meaning of it is that contractually any virtual land you "buy" isn't yours and section 7.1 begins:This does raise the question of do you trust Linden Lab more than one of the land brokers discussed above especially knowing that the Terms of Service apply as much to the land brokers and renters as equally as it does you. "Ownership" of anything (including land) in Second Life is illusory as defined by the real contract known as the Terms of Service.

I am sorry, but your post is complete rubbish and full of prejudice. Please don't take it personally, but if this would come from other person I would take it as insult. We now live in 21st century, not in 18th century.

The China foreign enterprise hightech registration is highly reglemented and governed by the law. In fact, more so than e.g. Ltd. company foundation in the USA (I don't know details about UK procedure). Usually it is the multi-million US$ large enterprise who do this and it is very uncommon that one small company like ours get this status. We were very thoroughly audit by the Hubei state government, had to present the 6 digit US$ in cash on bank account and in addition we needed to provide the guarantees from one established real estate company in Germany.

I may also add, that China has been the first country who established effective cyberlaw. In China people have actually been convicted in court for the theft of virtual property. The legal systems in the USA and UK have not yet achieved this level. Any Ltd. company in USA, Europe or Japan can legally screw you in Second Life. You can not sue them. But if we would screw you, in fact, you could sue us according to Chinese law and win. As hard this may be for you to digest, but because we are register in China we may very well be the only SL business you could actually hold accountable for the virtual property transaction!

I would like to see anyone file a suit for say 4096m and come out of it even breaking even. I'll bet most people wouldn't know how to or be able to afford the lawsuit. Being in China doesn't make your business more secure for your renters. Having an established business worth thousands is what makes it likely neither you nor any other established business in SL will risk thousands in future earnings for a dishonest extra few hundred or less.

-ps Not to hid behind alt's - Jon Rolland here - Allan Rolland is my tier holding account I was on to pay tier - forgot to log out before posting.

its virtual land teir fee's go towards matinance buying or renting is the same there there isnt an official deed because there doesnt need to be one as long as you are paying your teir fee's its always honored by LL as you owning it unless you are banned or cancel your account in which case it becomes abadoned and goes up for auction after awhile. to rent means u have a person ur paying and u dont own scott free ie they can ban u from the area for the most part in the long run if u plan on doing alot buy if its just to live somewhere rent! i've owned land for a good long while in SL and 0 problems with it in fact u get bonuses to land usage if ur in a group and deed it to that group so they give u benefits when u buy etc and at least when u buy ur assured ur not gunan get ripped off as if they rip you off you can essentially sue them =P

Actually, as unlikely as it seems I see lawsuits as a real risk.

Even over an amount as small as, say, the value of a gumball.


Second Life is nothing, other than the excess energy of tens of thousands of people. They do whatever it is that amuses themselves.

Just as retirees are sometimes the "watchdogs" in gated communities because they often have little else to do, just about everyone spending leisure time in Second Life falls into the "I'm amusing myself in my free time" category.

Just like some retirees, there are Second Life residents are fantastically wealthy, opinionated, and bored.

So just as we see fantastic scripting and graphic art that would have cost a corporation 100,000+ USD to create, I suspect we shall also see incredibly detailed, well crafted lawsuits sooner or later. Just because it amuses someone.

Note: one not even need file in China to start, though Anshe is correct about their stricter cybercrime laws and higher chance of success there. China has international treaties that to some degree, respect injunctions from foreign courts.

Well I agreed more with your first post on this thread than your second Desmond.

Anshe, I am a realist not prejudiced.

Can you both please tell me why the Chinese Government saw fit to attempt to restrict access to the Net for its citizens; I believe it is called "The Great Cyber Wall of China". Indeed accesses to various websites are banned; recently Google, Yahoo, and Microsoft agreed to launch specific versions of their search engines for Chinese people. And in the past China was a big threat to Microsoft’s business due to intellectual copy write issues.

That is not the actions of a democratic legal society, it is more of a rule by dictate.

But these issues relate far more to First life than Second. Here for the record I would accept Ms Chung as an honest (if ruthless) business. Providing the law enables her to deliver on her promises I would have little fear in renting from her.

I still remember in 1995, this was long time ago about the time I study in Beijing and the Internet just arrive in China. Then some people in Western countries tried to publish information about one USA organization called "Scientology". It only took 24 hour for Scientology censor the Internet in western countries. They sent the threats of lawsuits to ISPs, made the intimidation and used the power and the money. Only one copy in the world survived: the copy our friend Michael put on one server in Beijing. Of course Scientology also made the threat attempts, but in China they don't have the power. Then the whole week so many Americans and Europeens fled to the Chinese Internet to enjoy freedom of information that the Internet connection from USA to China was totally congest. I think this has been document somewhere as "Scientology vs. the Net".

People should not be censored, neither through the firewall, nor through intimidation of the ISP nor by the government agency tactic like white noise.



At least China government only "dictates" on its own people and does not try dictate people in other countries how they have to live. But I agree, China still has many thing to learn. Maybe soon the government will send delegation to Abu Graib or Guantanamo to better study the "democratic legal society"

Was this thread about land deeds?

It was Introvert, however we drifted a tad. Such is life.

Anshe your point is also taken, it is perhaps in the human nature to wish to control and to try to order (your) version of order from what might be chaos.

I think that might be why "themes" seem to work well in Second Life, some working examples being your Dreamland Sims, the Gorean Empire, the Vampire World, and the Fur People.

But to achieve that level of control requires group control, hence group owned land with tenants (either renting or buying from the main group) with willing members contributing to the whole. The result imho seems to be greater than the sum of the parts, wandering through some sims I have been struck by the sheer beauty of these themed sims.

Perhaps therefore renting from a group is a good option if the "theme" meets with your approval satisfying a need either commercial or pleasure.

However I do not know if Linden would want or wish to involve themselves in any commercial dispute between group members (other than the standard Linden TOS). If I was Governor Linden I would not, as in my opinion it could remove the concept of "common carrier" and leave ME open to legal action in first life.

Confused now a bit - I thought you had minimal concern about legal actions regarding the minimal USD/GBP/$L transactions in Second Life?

But I do agree with the conclusion. Especially if someone is bored, determined, and has time on their hands to press a trivial case. Happens every day.

I was a bit surprised, make that shocked at the reaction to my 19th c. themed sim. The waiting list alone could fill a sim now (hopefully will have the next one shortly). But... control?

To be honest, 90% of the 'control' seems to be this: land holders see what their neighbours do, and kind of stick with it.

Still learning as I go. One thing I've learned: no need to be so inexpensive. I may stay that way for a sim or two, but really, with the kind of demand that there is out there, I can appreciate why sim owners charge entry fees (call it a deed, ownership, what-have-you).

I can't satisfy the market unless I have land available, and right now, I don't. Odds are, Caledon won't be any larger than 4 sims in 2006, unless I start charging closer to what the market will bear. In the meantime, some of the first land holders have said they felt fortunate, and I feel doubly fortunate having them, too.


Paul, I see you have a lot of financial experience and a business mind - jump in the pool with us, yes?

Start a business, start a sim, see what happens. Nothing more frustrating than being born a runner, yet staying on the sidelines of the race! I'd be fascinated to see what you come up with.

You seem so sure about this.



Very gracious of you.



Oh, you're a comedian too?

I'm the original poster of this thread and it's taken a strange turn to say the least, but I'll jump back in to say that, as a realtively new SLer looking for land, it's been challenging to find something I like.

I did consider Anshe's A'kasha sim, because I do love the desert, go there often in fact in RL, but I found the zoning a bit too controlling, as I was told I would only be able to build underground. I've found similiar problems in other themed areas. I understand the need to maintain a consistent feel in sims, especially since I am fleeing from a horrific FirstLand parcel that is surrounded by junk, but I'd like a bit more of a balance. Many of the themed sims right now severely restrict the participatory nature of SL. I get the challenge for the sim owner and I realize that for some this is mostly about commerce, but in my opinion one of the exciting things about SL is the possibility of this creative participation which, when visions are similar enough, can produce some spectacular virtual objects and situations.