Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

Update outmoded limits on account creation

Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-11-2006 16:21
[EDIT] PLEASE LOOK FARTHER DOWN IN THIS THREAD FOR AN UPDATED
WORDING OF THIS PROPOSAL, AND FOR IMPLEMENTATION SUGGESTIONS.

POST#14 CONTAINS THE FINAL VERSION.
[/EDIT]


PROPOSAL:

1: Eliminate the completely arbitrary restriction on how many accounts can be registered to a single credit card or household. You are not checking at account signup, even if payment info is provided at that time. The arbitrary restriction only harms those who provide valid payment information and who may have valid reasons for possessing more than 5 accounts in one household.

2: Enforce strict penalties for MISUSE of multiple accounts, including ensuring that suspensions or bans that affect one account also affect the others in the same household.

------------------------------
Discussion:

Torley recently answered a Second Life Answers query about the number of allowed accounts (HERE). in which she asserted that the limit of 2 accounts per payment method and 5 per household were still in effect, and that if someone is 'caught' with more accounts than that, they could be forced to deactivate all but 5 accounts. I just checked, and can't find that restriction in the TOS or Community Standards.

Since one no longer gets free Lindens as a weekly stipend, and since the unverified account registration process allows anyone who wants to do so to create unlimited numbers of unverified alts, why should those people who choose to provide valid payment information, and who may very well have a valid need for more than 5 accounts, be limited to only 5?

I'll give you several solid reasons for a single person having more than 5 accounts.

1: Obtaining matching surnames: Since Linden Labs still makes it IMPOSSIBLE to change the name of an avatar, (even though it's been clearly demonstrated with Torley Torgeson becoming Torley Linden that this CAN technically be done), Residents have only one method at their disposal if a couple wants to have the same surname, like a normal married family. They have to create two new alt accounts, transfer as much of their old account's assets as they can to the new pair, and then go through the pain and expense of replacing all the no-transfer items. They pretty much have to keep the old ones around to deal with the no-transfer stuff. So there's someone with two accounts right there. Quite possiblly two people and 4 accounts in one household, if they are married in RL. Not because they play two at once, but because Linden Labs gives them no other choice.

2: Roleplay: A fairly common use for Second Life is as a roleplay environment. You can be whatever you want. A businessman, a knight, an actress, a dragon, a furry. But what if you want to play several roles? Today a Japanese Human lady from the Edo period. Tomorrow a dashing male space pilot, who happens to be an anthro fox. The next day an aging barkeep running a tavern. Kind of hard to do that with just one account if all three always have the same name hanging over their head. Kind of hard to believably play a male with a woman's name hanging over your head, no matter what your visual form. Impossible to do the roleplay with just one account if the pilot and the inkeeper need to be in the same encounter with other players in the RP.

3: Anonymnity: Sometimes you just want to be able to explore and hang out with people, while not being the well-known person that you are in your normal social circles. Sometimes you want to build without being interrupted. So you make an alt, and you don't tell anyone that you're both the same Player.

None of these options abuse the system in any way. So you could easily have a single 'household' that has a person with their original account, their 'married name' account, their "Club Owner" account, their 'Gorean slave girl' account, their 'Male Human explorer' account, plus half a dozen accounts used strictly for roleplay, as a barkeep, a store owner, etc... Why must they give up ANY of those accounts if they are HONEST and provide payment details for each account, so they can all freely travel in SL and not be discriminated against or banned from parcels for being "Unverified"?
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Angel Fluffy
Very Helpful
Join date: 3 Mar 2006
Posts: 810
08-11-2006 17:49
I don't know why LL have this policy. I think it might be :

1) to stop or at least discourage subtle, impossible-to-detect forms abuse such as stalking, where the stalker uses lots of verified alts so that their stalking is never detected. If at some point they're forced to use unverifieds, this is more suspicious and keeps them out of secure areas.

2) to encourage residents to keep their personalities integrated, instead of split across lots of alts. Having one main, instead of lots of alts, makes your account less disposable and thus encourages bonds of trust to form in the community.

3) because they simply don't understand how many people want to have an alt per role they play, or they don't wish to encourage this behaviour, or there are technical reasons why haveing lots of accounts per person is bad.

4) to 'chain link' evidence on a Resident and help identify all their alts. If you can only create two accounts per payment info, and you want to create lots of accounts, then you have to give lots of different forms of your payment info over to LL. This enables them to build up a profile on you. It could be useful, for example, if they're trying to mine data on a person to find out as much as possible about them, or connect together alts they're not sure are owned by one person. It could be a way of forcing people to give LL more of their personal information so that LL can better track them.

5) because, possibly, each account takes up DB space on the server, and so it's more efficient to discourage the creation of lots of alts if possible, because it saves server space.


I have no idea if these have anything to do with the reasons that LL limit accounts per payment info. I'm just guessing.
_____________________
Volunteer Portal (FAQs!) : https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Volunteer_Portal

JIRA / Issue Tracker : http://jira.secondlife.com (& http://tinyurl.com/2jropp)
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-11-2006 18:49
Some food for thought there. Here are my answers to each point you raise.

From: Angel Fluffy
I don't know why LL have this policy. I think it might be :

1) to stop or at least discourage subtle, impossible-to-detect forms abuse such as stalking, where the stalker uses lots of verified alts so that their stalking is never detected. If at some point they're forced to use unverifieds, this is more suspicious and keeps them out of secure areas.
Under this proposal, the verified alts would all be lost if any one of them was abused, making use of a verified alt more risky and less likely.

From: Angel Fluffy
2) to encourage residents to keep their personalities integrated, instead of split across lots of alts. Having one main, instead of lots of alts, makes your account less disposable and thus encourages bonds of trust to form in the community.
If all your verified alts suffer the same consequences if you misuse any of them, that should not be an issue. Bonds of trust are more readily given to someone who is willing to provide some tracable identity than to someone who refuses to give any. Roleplaying isn't schitzophrenia - it's creative writing, improvizational theatre and acting.

From: Angel Fluffy
3) because they simply don't understand how many people want to have an alt per role they play, or they don't wish to encourage this behaviour, or there are technical reasons why haveing lots of accounts per person is bad.
I would agree that they don't even seem to have considered the possibility of roleplay. That is obvious by the fact that we can change our gender at will, but not our name. So we end up with a burly male club bouncer named "Mary", or a Gorean slave girl named "George". Having a dozen or more unverified accounts is worse than a dozen that are all tracable to one individual, because the ones you can't trace can't readily be punished if misused. Thus you get the griefers that return 5 minutes after being banned with another throwaway alt.

From: Angel Fluffy
4) to 'chain link' evidence on a Resident and help identify all their alts. If you can only create two accounts per payment info, and you want to create lots of accounts, then you have to give lots of different forms of your payment info over to LL. This enables them to build up a profile on you. It could be useful, for example, if they're trying to mine data on a person to find out as much as possible about them, or connect together alts they're not sure are owned by one person. It could be a way of forcing people to give LL more of their personal information so that LL can better track them.
Much easier to track the accounts as a unit if they are all on ONE credit card. LL shouldn't be data mining private data beyond what they request for business purposes.

From: Angel Fluffy
5) because, possibly, each account takes up DB space on the server, and so it's more efficient to discourage the creation of lots of alts if possible, because it saves server space.
If that was true, they never would have opened registration wide-open to allow unlimited unregistered alts. An unregistered alt takes the same assets in the database as a registered one does. It's just less accountable for its actions.
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Jesse Malthus
OMG HAX!
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 649
08-11-2006 21:58
I like the idea.
Also, an "Alts" profile tab would be cool, and some visibility control (link to parent account in alt profile only, unlinked, linked both ways)
But, sadly, not going to happen
_____________________
Ruby loves me like Japanese Jesus.
Did Jesus ever go back and clean up those footprints he left? Beach Authority had to spend precious manpower.
Japanese Jesus, where are you?
Pragmatic!
Angel Fluffy
Very Helpful
Join date: 3 Mar 2006
Posts: 810
08-12-2006 05:23
A few points for Ceera Murakami:

With regard to #1,
I think you missed the point. I agree that if one account is abused all should probably get the same suspension term (after all, we're dealing with *people* here, not accounts).
What I am saying is that if you give people lots of verified accounts, then some types of abuse (such as "alt-stalking";) become harder, or in some cases even impossible to detect *at all*.
Thus, raising the limit for how many verified alts someone can have can make some bad things harder, or in some cases impossible, to track, because they can be split amongst lots of verified accounts each of which seems legit. I'm sure there are lots of scams that are just waiting to be pulled if we allow people to have lots of verified alts each of which *looks* like a different person but isn't.
Imagine all the fake 'oh yes I trust this person' support someone could get from their unlimited verified alts, for example.

With regard to #2,
I think your point that
From: someone

If all your verified alts suffer the same consequences if you misuse any of them, that should not be an issue. Bonds of trust are more readily given to someone who is willing to provide some tracable identity than to someone who refuses to give any.

misses the fact that splitting your interaction in SL between lots of alts ultimately undermines the community because instead of having one 'node' (account) with lots of links, you have a lot of nodes (accounts) with few social links. The result is less social unity, and more social fragmentation, as people start having an alt for each major topic in their SL, and 'unified' accounts which give SL a social backbone are reduced.

With regard to #3,
Your point that
From: someone

Having a dozen or more unverified accounts is worse than a dozen that are all tracable to one individual, because the ones you can't trace can't readily be punished if misused. Thus you get the griefers that return 5 minutes after being banned with another throwaway alt.

is taken, however, I think that there are limits on unverified accounts (put bluntly, many people in SL don't trust them and they're banned from many popular places) which don't exist on verified accounts (as verfieds are more trusted and not limited by payment info). Therefore, if we encourage people to switch to verified alts, then alt use may well *increase*.
Also, I'm sure that LL have other ways besides payment info to link accounts. IP and email addresses, transaction/item history (mains have to pass money/items to their alts...) and hardware hash, to name a few. Use of an unverified, as opposed to a verified, alt cuts out only *one* of the many ways that LL can identify alts as owned by the same person.

With regard to #4,
I can see your point with
From: someone

Much easier to track the accounts as a unit if they are all on ONE credit card. LL shouldn't be data mining private data beyond what they request for business purposes.

but the fact is that it will happen anyway. Admins of large computer systems pretty much always use data-mining to identify the accounts of serious griefers, so they *have* to have the framework there to do it. It's just a question of how well used that framework is.
The fact that lots of people might get queasy about it is irrelavant... it will happen anyway. Pretty much every large company now does data mining on its customers, I mean, why else do you think you get so many cards from companies asking you to enter free 'prize draws'? Why do you think you have a 'loyalty card' when you go grocery shopping, or to the drugs store? Data-mining is everywhere and frankly, I think if consumers go around saying "NO to data mining!" they'll simply be ignored. It doesn't matter if they're ethically right or not, the field is too stacked against them to make a difference. Similarly, in this case, LL *needs* to use data mining to be able to identify griefer alts, so any protest by Residents is likely to be ineffective in getting that changed.


Personally, I'm not sure if I'm in favour of lifting the limit on verified alts, but I can see some powerful arguments in favour of it...

1) It promotes better social bonding and trust if we encourage people to have verified accounts rather than unverified ones. Thus, we should probably let people sign up for more than 2 verified accounts, simply as an encouragement to create verified accounts.
On the flipside, I'd imagine that only a few people are in a situation where their household has more than one person in it who plays SL. Thus, the majority effectively have a 5 account limit before LL starts to notice, and frankly, I think 5 is plenty for most people.
So this might be an issue that affects only a minority of SLers.


2) There is something wrong with the principle that LL are choosing to stop people applying for new accounts when those people are happy and willing to provide payment info so they can be tracked. Surely, it would be better policy to have a limit of unverified alts, thus encouraging people to become verified, than to have a limit of verified alts, thus encouraging people to become unverified?


On the face of it, it seems that there is a better case for increasing or removing the limit on verified alts per person. So, I'd imagine that LL has some reason for not doing this which isn't public. Not necessarily a bad reason, perhaps a security reason, or a legal reason, or some other reason.

Maybe you should post in SL answers before it's closed, and ask Torley why LL have this limit. Your arguments would carry more weight if you could devise them to attack the reasons LL have for keeping it this way, rather than providing a case for change based on the PoV of a Resident.
_____________________
Volunteer Portal (FAQs!) : https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Volunteer_Portal

JIRA / Issue Tracker : http://jira.secondlife.com (& http://tinyurl.com/2jropp)
KatanaBlade Anubis
House of Blade
Join date: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 369
08-12-2006 09:26
I started this post as a suggestion and asking for other constructive suggestions, you guys would have been helpful in alotof your suggestions to this post. The feedback at first were a bunch of flaming unverified acounts. which many we so upset about. I personally like the idea of limiting unverified accounts and verified accounts. I know for a fact Linden Lab can track not jsut per IP but per computer IDs.

I don't have a problem with Free account, it is the limited verified alt account but allowing floodgates open to the unlimited unverified accounts that are getting out of hand.

As for the name changing thing I am still iffy bout that. I specifically remember some serious griefers by their names and profiles. To change their name I may not know who they are and unbann them trying to clean the states list. If they do a name change it would like to know their surname also. Just my opinion.

p.s. and to add a family used computer, my RL hubby and I use separate CC numbers.
_____________________
Main Shop & Owned Mall:

(Click Banner for LM)


Are you a custom builder or clothing designer?
Vote on Prop: 735 and Prop: 1773
  1. Samurai Regional Estates
  2. Crying Rose Studio Design
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-13-2006 07:01
Angel, you and I may just have to agree to disagree on a few points here, but I welcome your views and the discussion this is developing.

I will post this to SL Answers for Linden feedback, and I will also make a formal propsal in the Features voting area. I wanted to get some discussion going and refine details first.

Updated wording on proposal:

PROPOSAL:

1: Eliminate the restriction on how many accounts can be registered to a single credit card (currently 2) or household (currently 5), or at least increase it to a larger number, such as 10 or 20 accounts. Allow one free Basic account per 90 day period to be created, with additional Basic accounts costing $9.95 USD. Enforce strict penalties for MISUSE of multiple accounts, including ensuring that suspensions or bans that affect one account also affect the others in the same household.

It is possible to create unlimited numbers of accounts merely by withholding payment information. At this time, Linden Labs does not check for number of accounts at account signup, even if payment info is provided at that time. They are failing to collect the $9.95 USD fee for creation of additional Basic accounts, unless, perhaps, the extra accounts are noticed later. The arbitrary restriction on how many verified accounts one may have only harms those who are willing to provide valid payment information and who may have valid reasons for possessing more than 5 accounts in one household, such as roleplayers who want to use different accounts for each character that they RP as. (Male mercenary, female slave girl, new account for a 'Married name', etc.) .

------------------------------
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
08-13-2006 14:02
From: Angel Fluffy
Thus, raising the limit for how many verified alts someone can have can make some bad things harder, or in some cases impossible, to track, because they can be split amongst lots of verified accounts each of which seems legit.
On the other hand, having everyone's alts verified and on the same CC makes some things easier to track. For example, you could have all of them banned from a parcel by banning one of them.
From: someone
I'm sure there are lots of scams that are just waiting to be pulled if we allow people to have lots of verified alts each of which *looks* like a different person but isn't.
Imagine all the fake 'oh yes I trust this person' support someone could get from their unlimited verified alts, for example.
This is one of the (many) reasons I oppose exposing the "verified" status of an account, at least not easily. It may create a false sense of security (but see below).
From: someone
splitting your interaction in SL between lots of alts ultimately undermines the community because instead of having one 'node' (account) with lots of links, you have a lot of nodes (accounts) with few social links. The result is less social unity, and more social fragmentation, as people start having an alt for each major topic in their SL, and 'unified' accounts which give SL a social backbone are reduced.
The same thing is true simply by having more users on the system. And, really, there's got to be a limit to how many alts a person can spend enough time on to have any social effect at all... those alts will become part of the social network, the rest won't have any more effect on it than an unused account.
From: someone
I think that there are limits on unverified accounts (put bluntly, many people in SL don't trust them and they're banned from many popular places) which don't exist on verified accounts (as verfieds are more trusted and not limited by payment info).
I created an unverified alt to test this. I've yet to find a popular place I was banned from, and even when I started "acting out" a bizarre personality I didn't get a single comment about my "unverified" status from anyone. I was also unable to fund any adult-oriented venues I couldn't visit, or products I couldn't buy.

I was barred from enting a few private parcels with low traffic counts, and I got a couple of "go away, griefer alt" comments from security orbs, and I know there are a few places that turn on a block against unverifieds during griefer attacks. But the "limits on unverified accounts" seem pretty minor.

I actually find that encouraging. I was afraid that there would be the kind of large-scale ostracization of 'unverified' alts that you're depicting, but it hasn't happened. I'm occasionally pleasantly surprised by rational behaviour from large masses of people, and I hope this surprise continues to keep happening.
From: someone
1) It promotes better social bonding and trust if we encourage people to have verified accounts rather than unverified ones.
Given my experience, this is probably a minor effect.
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-18-2006 08:39
Updated wording on proposal:

PROPOSAL:

1: Eliminate the restriction on how many accounts can be registered to a single credit card (currently 2) or household (currently 5), or at least increase it to a larger number, such as 10 or 20 accounts. Allow one free Basic account per 90 day period to be created, with additional Basic accounts costing $9.95 USD. Enforce strict penalties for MISUSE of multiple accounts, including ensuring that suspensions or bans that affect one account also affect the others in the same household.

It is possible to create unlimited numbers of accounts merely by withholding payment information. At this time, Linden Labs does not check for number of accounts at account signup, even if payment info is provided at that time. They are failing to collect the $9.95 USD fee for creation of additional Basic accounts, unless, perhaps, the extra accounts are noticed later. The arbitrary restriction on how many verified accounts one may have only harms those who are willing to provide valid payment information and who may have valid reasons for possessing more than 5 accounts in one household, such as roleplayers who want to use different accounts for each character that they RP as. (Male mercenary, female slave girl, new account for a 'Married name', etc.) .

Implementation:

Revamp the registration system, so the process for creating an account requires downloading a small account setup application, which does the same machine ID check that the SL client now does. Use that information to track what systems are setting up new accounts. If that machine ID hasn't created a new account in the last 90 days, or some similar period of time, they can create a new account for free, and don't have to provide billing info. If it's been less than 90 days, then billing info is REQUIRED, and a $9.95 USD payment will be processed and must complete successfully before account creation is finalized. At the time of the request, the identifying information, if provided, would be cross-checked against existing billing information. Machine ID should also be checked at registration against known banned ID's, preventing banned griefers from creating new accounts.

Discussion:

I believe that if the implementation method I am proposing is used, we could eliminate the floods of griefer alts, while at the same time still allowing new users to experience SL without having to provide credit card information. You only need ONE free trial account to experience SL. Allowing one new Basic account free per 90 day period allows roleplayers to accumulate verified alts without spending lots of money, while a serious roleplayer who really wants several alts right now, or someone looking to lock in a particular surname while it is still available, can pay for that privilege.

------------------------------
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Angel Fluffy
Very Helpful
Join date: 3 Mar 2006
Posts: 810
08-20-2006 10:42
I'm tempted to agree that we should encourage people to have a main or two rather than lots of alts, and to this end LL should allow, say, 2 accounts from a particular IP or hardware hash before all subsequent accounts are forced to pay a one-time fee of $10 or so to sign up.
Not sure if it's really a good idea (e.g. poor families where more than one family member uses SL). I wonder if abuse by alts is sufficently bad that it jusifies restricting alt creation for everyone... I wonder...
_____________________
Volunteer Portal (FAQs!) : https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Volunteer_Portal

JIRA / Issue Tracker : http://jira.secondlife.com (& http://tinyurl.com/2jropp)
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
08-20-2006 14:25
From: Angel Fluffy
I'm tempted to agree that we should encourage people to have a main or two rather than lots of alts
That's the status quo. The problem is that by encouraging people to have a main or two rather than lots of alts you're encouraging people to have unaccountable alts... because they're the only kind they can have.
From: someone
I wonder if abuse by alts is sufficently bad that it jusifies restricting alt creation for everyone... I wonder...
Abuse by alts is a reason NOT to restrict character creation. It's a reason to encourage people to have multiple characters they are accountable for, rather than splitting them up among multiple identities.
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-21-2006 17:16
I asked Torley to provide a current citation that states that this limit of 5 accounts per household and two per credit card is a valid, current policy. The best Torley could do was to cite a post by Daniel Linden, dated September 2005:

From: Daniel Linden
We've set the account creation limits at two per Credit Card or Paypal, and five per household. These restrictions are in place on the Registration page, and in most cases those with a reasonable need for additional account per card or household can get one by contacting Support.

These limits were always meant to be based on active accounts -- but the current implementation counts closed accounts. That doesn't make a lot of sense, and we'll get that fixed.

We've put these controls in place, primarily, to combat fraud. Because Second Life is an intensely social space where many Residents have invested serious amounts of time, money, and energy, we feel it makes sense to take steps to help make indentity in-world as tangible and vaulable as possible.

Any Second Life Resident can easily have their account and an alt if they so choose; their partner, sibliing, or other household memeber with a seperate form of payment is not restricted from creating additional accounts. These are very reasonable limits, and they help protect the Second Life community. For what possible reason could one person need 30 accounts?


This rulling is NOT in the TOS and is NOT on the registration forms. I want an official Linden ruling on why it is still being enforced. It is pure nonsense now that registration for unverified accounts is unlimited, and no new free account gets stipends.

Daniel? For what reason could someone need 30 accounts? ACTING. Ask any actor or actress if they would accept being limited to the first 5 roles they ever performed. Ask any serious roleplayer if they could do all their roles as just two names.
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Danni Dooley
Registered User
Join date: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 6
08-21-2006 18:22
Some good points made. I would personally like to see a system of sponsored accounts. These could be used as alts or in my case some real life friends wanted me to play with them. They already on land and what not so I have no need to pay. They could and would sponsor me.

A sponsored system would really make you decide if you trust that person enough to vouch for them knowing that if they do something bad you and anyone else you sponsored would face a penalty. While there could be abuse here as in almost any other system implemented, you would at least know the person. The Lindens may have to make some allowance for the sponors when a sponsored player does sometihng wrong.

There could be a system where the sponsored account is banned, the Sponsors account gets a 10 day ban and loses sponorship privlidges for 180 days. The other other sponsored accounts get the same 10 ban as the sponsor did. They could however at any time within that 10 days pay to become a premium account and remove the ban if they wish to play.

Just place a limit of say 10 accounts sponsored at any time on a sponsors account. This way everyone would still be able to play together or separate or as was suggested for roleplay if multiple PC's are being placed at the same time by one person they would still be able to loging as whatever characters are needed.
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-23-2006 10:58
Updated wording on proposal - For the Feature Request:

VOTE HERE

PROPOSAL:

1: Eliminate the restriction on how many accounts can be registered to a single credit card (currently 2) or household (currently 5), or at least increase it to a larger number, such as 20 accounts. Allow one free Basic account per 90 day period to be created, with additional Basic accounts costing $9.95 USD. Enforce strict penalties for MISUSE of multiple accounts, including ensuring that suspensions or bans that affect one account also affect the others in the same household.

The current limitation is based on a ruling almost one year old, cited only in a Forum post, and dating to prior to the end of stipends on free accounts and the elimination of account info verification. The limitation is no longer referenced in the TOS or on the registration forms, yet is being selectively enforced, causing honest people to have to eliminate 'excess' accounts. It is possible to create unlimited numbers of accounts merely by withholding payment information. The arbitrary restriction on how many verified accounts one may have only harms those who are willing to provide valid payment information and who may have valid reasons for possessing more than 5 accounts in one household, such as roleplayers who want to use different accounts for each character that they RP as. (Male mercenary, female slave girl, new account for a 'Married name', etc.).

Implementation Suggestion:

Revamp the registration system, so the process for creating a free account requires downloading a small account setup application, which does the same machine ID check that the SL client now does. Use that information to track what systems are setting up new accounts. If that machine ID hasn't created a new account in the last 90 days, or some similar period of time, they can create a new account for free, and don't have to provide billing info. If it's been less than 90 days, or if they do not download and run the machine ID check app, then billing info is REQUIRED, and a $9.95 USD payment will be processed and must complete successfully before account creation is finalized. At the time of the request, the identifying information, if provided, would be cross-checked against existing billing information. Machine ID should also be checked at registration against known banned ID's, preventing banned griefers from creating new accounts.

Discussion:

Elimination the arbitrary restriction on number of registered accounts will encourage people to create registered accounts rather than making unverified ones just to bypass the restrictions, and will greatly increase SL's appeal and value to roleplay enthisiasts. Allowing one new Basic account free per 90 day period allows roleplayers to accumulate verified alts without spending lots of money, while a serious roleplayer who really wants several alts right now, or someone looking to lock in a particular surname while it is still available, can pay for that privilege. I believe that if the implementation method I am proposing is used, we could also eliminate the floods of griefer alts, while at the same time still allowing new users to experience SL without having to provide credit card information. You only need ONE free trial account to experience SL.
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
08-23-2006 12:27
I don't understand the reason for this "machine ID check app". What problem is it supposed to solve?

Rather than try and catch people using "free" accounts to get around the account limits, LL needs to eliminate free unverified accounts, and drop the account limits.

There are other reasons to eliminate free unverified accounts, which have been hashed over forever. Make all accounts verified or sponsored, so that there's a real person responsible for all accounts, and don't try and micromanage the social aspects of the game.
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
08-23-2006 14:35
From: Argent Stonecutter
I don't understand the reason for this "machine ID check app". What problem is it supposed to solve?

Rather than try and catch people using "free" accounts to get around the account limits, LL needs to eliminate free unverified accounts, and drop the account limits.
The reason for the "Machine ID check app" is to allow some free accounts per household, while not opening the floodgates wide for any griefer that wants an army of free, unverified alts. I am very much in favor, personally, of eliminating free accounts that require no verified ID at all to obtain. But Linden Labs wants to allow more people trial access. This offers a compromise that could allow limited numbers of free accounts, with pretty much the code they already have developed.

If my proposed implementation is enacted:

A real SL Newbie can still get a free account. One free account every 90 days, if they like. No credit? No problem! We'll trust you for ONE free account. That covers the non-US Customers that Linden Labs wants so badly to gain.

Linden Labs doesn't have to rely on the applicant being honest for the question of whether this is their first SL account or not. They either run the machine ID check, and it's cross-checked against existing user data, or they provide payment info that can be cross-checked, or both. In any event, rapid-fire accquisition of new accounts requires paying for them, and providing some sort of tracable identity that the accounts can be linked to.

A roleplayer can still pay for additional accounts, if they want more than one free one in a 90 day period.

BUT - A griefer can NOT get 10, 20, or 100 accounts in a single day, and pay nothing for them and give no tracable ID. A known griefer can't get a new account at all.

============

Technically, if someone is banned from SL, they could still go to the website and create a slew of new accounts. If they try to use them on a system whose Machine ID is locked out, tey will lose them. But they could still go to a friend's home, or a library, or some other public-access computer and raise hell.

Another factor I am trying to cover is that accounts are created from website access, not from a system that the SL Client is actually on. Several of my own accounts were created on my work laptop, which is incapable of running SL. Capturing system info allows those systems to also be tracked, to allow better enforcement of bans and suspensions.
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
08-24-2006 09:39
From: Ceera Murakami
The reason for the "Machine ID check app" is to allow some free accounts per household, while not opening the floodgates wide for any griefer that wants an army of free, unverified alts. I am very much in favor, personally, of eliminating free accounts that require no verified ID at all to obtain. But Linden Labs wants to allow more people trial access. This offers a compromise that could allow limited numbers of free accounts, with pretty much the code they already have developed.
I think that both Linden Labs desire for free accounts and our desire to keep griefers from getting a zillion free untracable alts could be better served with a sponsorship system. They already have the referral system, all they need to do is to allow a customer referred by a verified account to get a free account without verification, but hold the referring account responsible for their behaviour. The griefer's army of alts would then all point back at one account that he's actually responsible for.
From: someone
Linden Labs doesn't have to rely on the applicant being honest for the question of whether this is their first SL account or not. They either run the machine ID check, and it's cross-checked against existing user data, or they provide payment info that can be cross-checked, or both.
Shared computers are a lot more common than you seem to think, particularly among the very people who can't provide payment info. If you accept that it's desirable to get these free accounts (which I'm not convinced of, but LL is, and they call the shots) then blocking shared computers is a problem.
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
09-01-2006 09:04
Whether Linden Labs implements the machine ID tracking part of the proposal or not, we really need to level the playing field between honest people who are willing and ready to give ID and to spend money, and those who use un-verified accounts.

It makes no sense at all that I can create 100 untracable unverified alts, and not get charged a single penny, but if I create six or more verified alts and am willing to pay for each of them, I have to risk Linden Labs ordering me to pick which of the others that I have will be disabled permenantly, so I only have five verified accounts. What possible purpose does that restriction serve, now that new accounts get no weekly stipend? Why penalize people for providing payment information and paying for their additional alts?

I am a roleplayer. I like acting, and I like playing different roles for different occasions. I would HAPPILY pay $10 USD per alt to add another dozen or so of the characters that I would like to roleplay to the choices that I have in SL. WHY should Linden Labs refuse to allow me that option? If I give my payment ID for every one of them, then Linden Labs can track them all as a group. If I misuse one or more of my alts for griefing or for deceptive business practices, they can nail me easily.

The only alternative a roleplayer has now, if they want more than 5 roles that they can play, is to give completely false information in signup, and to refuse to give payment information. And then they risk losing all but 5 accounts if they ever get 'caught' doing that, and if some Linden decides to selectively enforce a rule that gets blatantly ignored on almost every griefer account that had ever existed.
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Angel Fluffy
Very Helpful
Join date: 3 Mar 2006
Posts: 810
09-01-2006 11:00
From: Ceera Murakami

It makes no sense at all that I can create 100 untracable unverified alts, and not get charged a single penny, but if I create six or more verified alts and am willing to pay for each of them, I have to risk Linden Labs ordering me to pick which of the others that I have will be disabled permenantly, so I only have five verified accounts. What possible purpose does that restriction serve, now that new accounts get no weekly stipend? Why penalize people for providing payment information and paying for their additional alts?


Very good points.
You should raise this on SL Answers.
_____________________
Volunteer Portal (FAQs!) : https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Volunteer_Portal

JIRA / Issue Tracker : http://jira.secondlife.com (& http://tinyurl.com/2jropp)
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
09-01-2006 16:42
I just posted it to SL answers again.

It's been raised in SL answers before, and has also been raised directly to Torley via e-mail. It keeps getting brushed off, or they focus on any aspect other than actually REPEALING the limitation. I have yet to get a straight answer from ANY Linden on what useful purpose this limitation serves.
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Angel Fluffy
Very Helpful
Join date: 3 Mar 2006
Posts: 810
09-01-2006 22:09
In that case I'd suggest either :
1) asking again, linking to previous topics and explaining why their answers were inadequate, so you do not get the same sort of answer again.
OR
2) asking who is responsible for this policy (or policy area) then contacting them directly via email.
_____________________
Volunteer Portal (FAQs!) : https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Volunteer_Portal

JIRA / Issue Tracker : http://jira.secondlife.com (& http://tinyurl.com/2jropp)
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
09-18-2006 15:38
It's been several weeks, and still no reply in Linden Answers from any Linden other than a "Thanks, I'll forward this on to see what else we've got." from Torley. I just sent a forum IM to Daniel Linden, the author of the only citation Torley could provide that supports this ruling - a year-old forum post. I have asked Daniel for his help in getting this repealed, or at least to give me a more definitive answer.

I do realize that the last two weeks have been quite Chaotic, with the password hacking and the grid attacks and the botched updates. But this should be a simple policy decision. I can't for the life of me see how it is in anyone's best interests to penalize honesty and reward dishonesty. And that is what they are doing by restricting verified alts while allowing unrestricted account creation with pure garbage entered into the forms.
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
09-26-2006 14:14
It's been eight days since I sent a forum private message to Daniel Linden, and it remains unread.

My post in Linden Answers is on page 25 or worse, and they won't allow me to bump it. No answers there, other than from Torley saying she will 'look into it."

It's been close to two months since I started trying to get this policy repealed, and NO ONE at Linden Labs will reply with a real answer!

Today I wrote directly to Phillip Linden, by e-mail. We'll see if THAT gets an answer!
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
09-28-2006 06:21
Well, Phillip replied to my message, said I raised some good points, and that he is forwarding it to Robin and back to Torley. Not sure why he is pinging Torley, when my letter stated Torley had already done all she had authority to do. But maybe Robin can move the idea along and get it to someone with authority to actually make a change in the policy.
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
09-28-2006 06:28
I not to sold on this vote.........

With all the current problems with alts it just might make things worse.......
1 2