Solution to first land profiteers?

K so while talking about the first land sales that have been coming online and taken by alts just as quickly to sell for a profit, I had a light bulb.

Original thread here:
/327/8c/151240/1.html#post1345038

Reposting the important part:

On a note to combat this, there is an idea I have.

For the first 45 days you purchase first land, it cannot be resold except as first land again, it cannot be deeded to a group for 45 days either.

That would require 2 months of premium and cancel out the profit from land barons.



Would this be at all possible?

Great idea! I know it's a solution we've considered before, and we are currently searching for new ways to make sure this doesn't happen to those who would seek out new land.
If you have more suggestions, and this goes to anyone reading this... in regards to how we can better make sure that first land is available to all, providing a more fair opportunity to every new user on the grid, we welcome your ideas.
Please send any thoughts you may have on the subject to Cyn Linden, she may not respond to every email, but she'd love the input.

Best,

Chadrick

Thanks for the reply! Sorry, I posted in the wrong forum to start! *blush*

This is about the only thing I could come up with, it take out the profitability for the land guys and still allow residents who want to get first land be able to do so.

If they should choose not to keep it, it can be first land too for someone else, so they get the same deal as others.

That would have pissed me off no end. The first thing I did with my first land was deed it to a group and join up with my friend next to me. Then he pulled out, joined up with his partner who bought first land next to him, and I ended up rounding up a bunch of friends to buy in together and we formed a group and built a great corner of the sim.

If LL is scared of asking people to wait a couple days for some kind of verification before signing up, they're not going to want to make people commit to 3 months premium when tiering up and buying first land.

I feel the same way. My wife and I joined the same day, got two plots right next to each other, formed a group, and merged our plots under the group.

Had we not been able to do so, I cannot say whether I would even still be here. We only joined SL in the first place because we wanted to be able to build and script, and having the joined plots (and therefore larger prim pool) was quite important to our early impressions and decision of whether to continue paying for this "online game".


[Added] We knew from the very first few hours in-game that a public sandbox was an absolutely unacceptible alternative. I guarantee that if that were our only option, neither of us would have remained.

Well, you could add in something that allows a deed to group without the option of reselling it for 45 days above the SL price.

Frankly, considering how many people are constantly ticked about not even getting a shot at first land, I think the risk of losing a few sales is less than residents leaving because they can't get any first land at all. I know it sounds mean, but I think we are losing more resis on not even getting a shot.

At least you guys were able to even get some.

I think the idea of the "limit deeding to group" was to keep people from buying up first land and using the group tools to rent it, and get around the restriction that way.

How about this alternative?

Now I'm normally against "IP locking" accounts, or using IP or MAC address for cross-referencing accounts, but for this *specific* case only:

How about limiting first land purchases BY COMPUTER to once per month, or once per 60 or 90 days?

Robby: with your name I'm surprised you haven't asked to join the group I set up with my first land. I'll send you an invite in-world.

Seola: The thing is, right now the risk of tiering up to premium and buying first land is pretty low, which is one of the things that makes the demand so high. If you were locked in to three months of premium when you bought your land, I think a lot of people would be reluctant to sign up. And, yes, you can just abandon it... but that's a psychological barrier to "buying" first land as well.

I've been keeping an eye on FL for the girlfriend of one of my neighbors in Sinaburoe, so I am definitely feeling your frustration. But with the restrictions proposed in the message that opened this thread I'd personally have suggested she not even bother looking for FL... it wouldn't be worth the hassle. Now that I think of it, I'd actually benefit from those restrictions: I could sell part of the Coonspiracy land to him for her to buy instead of "First Land"... I'd get cash immediately, get another happy neighbor who I already know and whose build doesn't clash with ours, and work towards cutting my own tier payments down. But... no... it just wouldn't be fair to the FL buyers.

Another thought

Perhaps rather than having a 45 or 90 day moratorium on selling the land, have a price cap that's low enough to eliminate the profit, for that period... perhaps First Land younger than 30 days could be capped to L$4 per square meter, then $5 for the next 30, and $6 out to 90 days? I still think that's unfair to the FL buyers... but I could have lived with it. That's what the Land Barons offer FL buyers, before turning around and selling for L$7-8 per square meter (which they wouldn't be able to do with this policy in place)... it would also have the advantage of preventing the "16 meter ad spammers" from getting a cheap foot in the door.

This might have the effect of driving down land prices a little, but I think the swoopers will have a bigger impact on land prices than that if they're not stopped.

But as it is, they are currently buying it up, deeding it to thier own group and selling it that way.



If LL doesn't have the time or resources to IP lock for alt accounts for money, they won't do it for first land for free.



I would agree if there were a timeframe on buying first land, but there isn't. No one forces anyone to go premium right away, nor to buy land. Plus as of right now, you still get stipends to recover some of that cost, so really you only stand to lose a few RL dollars for that month, and frankly, any person that worried over 2-3 bucks is going to easily research what SL is about and not just come in, buy and complain. Secondly, overall, by the time you pay second month and go to sell that land for 4k, you'll make back both month's investment. You essentially and eventually lose nothing.



Worth the hassle? The only hassle is not being able to profit from it. I'm not sure what you mean, but chances are, these people who are looking for first land, know what first land is about in the basic form and would call you silly. If this idea were in place, then it'd be more of a stupidity choice on someone else's part (like people who pay for freebies from idiots who sell them) and not getting informed as opposed to not even having the chance to own first land.

As it is now, there are hundreds who want even the smallest shot at free land.



Alas, this couldn't work because the value of L changes daily and has many variables from 3rd party sites. And actually, you are wrong, they sell for closer to 10-11L per square meter (I know, I searched for several hours to find a 512 for less than 4k, nothing that wasn't ahem... decent).

And as I said, if you wait til 45 days to sell it, for 20 bucks for 2 months premium, you get back 6400 in L and that's... drumroll... 22 bucks. You make a measly 2 dollars in that case, certainly not enough to be worth it, that cuts the profits off by 66% and have to have a 2 month turnaround time if you were trying to profit, which means 2 months of tier for land barons before they can try to sell, which as I said, makes it not profitable for them and still protects first land buyers.

Well, they DO lock computers for abuse, so they have the resources to do it. They have said they are reluctant to do it for anything else because of the impact on people behind proxies, and people using shared computers (apparently at one point early on they managed to accidentaly block a whole *state* doing IP blocks, and that's made them skittish). I haven't heard them say that they don't have time or resources to implement this kind of thing in general.

Um, I've already pointed out that I spent six months researching it before buying. You're also completely ignoring the psychological effect of "abandoning land".

Have you watched land sales? To get land to actually sell at 4k you have to leave it up for quite a while. When I was starting out buying up land around my own FL, I'd run out and buy as soon as it went on the market, but after a while I quite worring about land over L$7 per square meter.

The hassle of finding first land for sale that's actually worth the commitment of time and energy to actually develop it into something that's worth owning.

It's not free, it costs more than renting a *larger* parcel on most island sims - First Land costs $10.00 a month, or $6 after you commit to six months tier. I was renting 4096 square meters for $20 a month, that's 1/8th the price per square meter of paying your tier on First Land. No the value of First Land isn't the 512 square meters of land, it's the psychological benefit of "owning" that land, and knowing that the sim you're on isn't going to be sold out from under you.

The average actual sale price of 512 square meter parcels is L$3250, it seems higher because there's a lot of churn around L$3000 as people who need to sell quickly (and someone who'd tiering down *does* need to sell quickly) drop their prices low enough to interest land swoopers. And, well, I don't just have "several hours" experience here. I've sold land as I bought and sold parcels on Noonkkot as neighbors moved in and out, and it takes a couple of weeks to sell at L$3500... parcels for L$3500 have sat there for a month, and there's parcels at $4000 that can take even longer than that.

I still check out land every now and then, and if you're wiling to wait (as you insisted I should, ahem) you can do even better. I've turned friends and neighbors looking for good land on to some spectacular parcels for between L$3000 and L$3500.

If you wait for 45 days, for the average piece of First Land, you're going to be selling in the L$3000 range, not the L$4000 price you paid for a premium parcel. In fact if you have an average parcel of First Land you're likely to still be sitting there trying to get L$4000 for it when the two months runs out.

No, this proposal would be no more effective than a price *cap* (which would avoid the psychological cost of feeling you'd been "taken", since you would know what you were going to be getting when you went in), or a per-IP throttle, and it would hurt innocent residents more.

That might in fact work well



Thank you for the invite, Argent, I joined immediately



A price cap may work if it were extended to all purchasers within that time period... Yeah, now that I think of it, if somebody were to try to buy a bunch and sit on it until the period was over, it would cause increased tier costs and negate the profit.

Abuse in it's worst form yes. However, the resources on having to go through each and every computer that owns land is quite different than severe abuse violations.



Psychological? I think you're reaching on this one.



Actually, I have for quite a while, which is what lead me to this idea. Land EASILY sells at 4k. However, and this is not a specific target for your, but a generalized statement in the argument: If a neighbor is crappy, land sells cheaper. Perhaps either you, or a neighbor is annoying the others into selling cheap. Quite simply, for your sim, it's not what's happening throughout the rest of the world. Try a parameter search for 4500 and 512, you'll see quite a few, try 3999 and 512, and there's only a very select few under that price and it's usually smushed between two things. Sure, you might have a limit of 7L, but that certainly doesn't mean anything to the rest of the residents, who either don't know better or don't care what they pay.



That's actually wrong. It's 6 bucks if you choose monthly. For 6 months, it's 3, and for one year, it's free. You are also not just getting first land with premium. There are hundreds of premium accounts who are premium for other benefits of it. They don't even own a 512. And while you sit and compare on tiers, you haven't added in the cost of the premium membership ON TOP of your tier.

Add to that, you are wrong in your numbers. Owning 4096 is a monthly tier of 25 dollars, not including the 10 monthly membership. So basically, your entire mathmatical argument is invalid.



Considering my two week long quest for a decent 512 under 4k, I'd have to say you are wrong on this point as well. And frankly, you cannot compare one single sim to the rest of the world. The sim may be ugly in visual, laggy, next to a casino, etc. I'm talking about a search that took me all over the mainland (and I wasn't eligible for first land since I thought I could still get it when I bought a 1024, at the time, it wasn't as clear as it is now).

But this isn't about who owns what, and whose land is bigger, this is about first land not being available to those who DO want it, because there are people out there buying it up and selling it for profit.



I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong on this. 512 lands ARE selling at 4k and above. As I said there are some exceptions that are lower (as in maybe 3-4), but there is exceptions that some are selling at 8k as well. When shopping around for those 512's and happening to start studying the first land phenom, I watched as these 'new' accounts would snap it up, deed it or resell to someone else, plop a 4k price tag down and it was gone within seconds at the 4k price. This happened repeatedly as Guy Linden and a few other L's would open FL's throughout the 2 weeks.

What happened to you isn't the gridwide reality.

And this IS more effective than a price cap simply because it allows the land owner to recoup the cost of membership and the land, and the fluxuation of L's doesn't depend on it each and everytime. A few months ago, 4 or 6L was worth WAY less than it is now.

If you think about the price cap, then real estate barons could easily manipulate the LindeX to favor them when they put up these lands. As long as the L holds different values, the price cap cannot work. As for knowing what is going on when you went in, it's not like I'm saying do this and not tell. It would be explained when you go to buy it and the information would be added to the database, so people who go to buy it WOULD know what's going on and it would then be thier choice, not the choice of some land baron guy turning quick profits off of a program intended to help people in owning thier first land.

I've already said my piece on the IP throttling. The resources are NOT there to check each and every computer each time someone goes to buy land, who currently owns the land, etc.

That's my argument though. And read what I've said to Argent about the L's and it's effects about being liquid.

Dearly Darlings,

Had I met Lord Sullivan earlier in game as we have a small in-world charity the no group land until day 45 would have hurt us. Question...Should 6% of the sale of any property go to LL to help underwrite the cost of a "land moderator"?

Ever Yours,

Mrs. Showdog Tiger

I admitted the group thing may not be the best option as just a no sell marker.

As for percentage of sales, considering how expensive land and tier is, it's just more money to make more people not want to buy it costing them money.

If an island sells for 1500USD, LL would get 90 of that. That's a pretty big chunk when you think that you've been paying 200 a month in tier already and will still have to pay 200 more at the end of the month cycle.

They spoke about having sims that peopel ran on there own, the problem is the communication between the main grid and your computer. Have you any idea how big your database would be, You will have to upload every item people bring to your own island.
I just dont see any logical means of doing this. You would literally have to have a big server with a verry big hard drive, and alot of upload and download speed.

Yes broadband is now at the 16MBps up and down, that may work. for 10 poeple per server at a time. If you ran one at home.

But if you ran your own server why pay the land tier, its on your system, you would more less have to pay for a portal link so poeple can click on your server and connect.

What is the matter with buying first land and then reselling it to make a profit? I do it all the time. Nobody is forcing anyone to sell - just the offer of a fair price for the land. It even states in the guide for newbies that is how to jump start your financial income.Just my opinion

This suggestion punishes new members more than it hurts the people exploiting first land. I haven't, but a neighbor of mine bought several plots ajoining hers to make her property bigger. I have no problem with that and think it was great she could do it. I also have no problem with someone putting their first land up for sale for 3-5k and then using the funds to buy property elsewhere in the game.


A solution to take out the exploiters would be preferred over a system that limits an ACTUAL first land owner's ability to do whatever he chooses with his new property.

Well, you are certainly overanalyzing the financial income. It's a great way to sell once, it's rude, to take constant advantage of a system intended to help others.

You sit here and make all the money while newbies can't even get land to plop a home on.

How do you figure? I'm not quite clear on what your neighbor buying plots has something to do with first land.... Please explain. I have no issues with people 'adding' to thier first land, but only that they cannot sell for profit off a program that is supposed to help people own a piece of LL pie.

I'm not saying you can't buy land later, but you have to wait 45 days.

As for your solution, it can't be done. You don't know who the exploiters are, because they are all new accounts.

Joe Newbie buys first land. He decides he needs more. He goes to talk to Jane Newby on the parcel next door. "Hi, can I buy your land?" "Sure. How about L$3100, so I can buy another parcel somewhere else?" "Um, no, I'm not allowed to buy it for more than L$512". "I'll hang onto it, thanks much".

I still think a simple flood of first land sims will quickly lower the price to the point where it's not worth the $10 startup fee.

The rate of release of first land plots should be in some way linked to the number of residents. That is to say either the average number online at once or the number logged in during the last 30 days.

All the while first land resells for more than the cost of startup then that's a sign there's not enough first land on the market. Just drop 10 or so sims of first land on the market and then maintain the supply at the appropriate rate.

Oh one last comment, LindenLab caved to the demands of the ridiculous economist spammers who dedicated every moment of their lives to reducing everyone elses stipend. Now they know you will fall for this kind of nonsense they're at it again. Please, please, please don't fall for the same trick a second time and get rid of first land.

That doesn't make sense to me. The $10 is your first month's teir payment, which gets you a L$500 stipend. And if you have been around for a little while, then you have another L$12 or more.

There, $10 to LL a month and you have land.

Err, I mean a flood of first land will reduce the resale value of 512s so that they're worth less than they are right now and a small profit can't be made by making alts and buying up first land.

I see what you mean now. Not sure it'd work though.

IT's not 500 anymore, it's 300 for people after 6-6-6.