Get rid of "first-land" concept

That wasn't a personal attack in any way shape or form so don't make it into someting it's not. It's an observation based on your posts. You believe the fluff numbers and I don't because I've seen the information analyzed to a T and I've also observed it. And I'm stating a fact when you've not come up with anything else besides the initial post, which we've already said, elimates first land altogether which isn't a solution. Other than that, all you've done is say no to everything, with nothing constructive to say. As for LL posting misleading numbers... I suggest you search through the forums for economic stats and read what others have seen.

I'm not talking about the numbers of what the land is, I'm talking purely about member numbers, which you were using to make a point. The member numbers are fluff, accounts created are fluff. About the only real number worth anything is the online now numbers. Based on a short survey I saw, if you take into account even 20,000 online now accounts, then rotate that into the day, we are only seeing roughly maybe 50,000 unique log on's per day, and that's not even considering how many are alts that log on throughout the day.

Anyways, since you haven't been constructive in your posts in a place to discuss features, I'm not going to reply to this post anymore, because it's basically run it's course. There are some good ideas in here from other posters, so I hope LL listens to some of them, who have experience and knowledge in land.

And I still disapprove of this.
First land doesn't cost L$512, it costs L$512 plus at least one month of Premium. Depending on the value of the Linden, that varies from L$1700 to L$2000 even after stipends are accounted for.

Limiting it to L$2048 (L$4/sm) the first month would eliminate the "Land Baron Bonus" without making First Land a risk. This could be raised to L$6/sm for the second month, because by then the Land Baron has burned two months Premium... after that the calculations are the same.

Once the land shortage is past land will go back to L$6/sm. The reason for the land shortage is the huge demand for island sims because of the flood of orders before Nov 15th. Also, limiting the value of First Land will itself reduce land prices. Burning today's land prices into the rules is a bad idea.

Better would be simply preventing the bad behaviour itself, but limiting First Land sales to one parcel per originating IP or computer per month.

That's a good point.

That's another good suggestion, along the lines of limiting it per IP.

The point of FL is to give people a taste of land ownership who are not sure they want to buy land. The people who *are* sure don't *need* First Land. First Land shouldn't be targeted to people are are already committed, it should be targeted to people who are wavering. Telling people they're locked into their FL for a month is going to discourage people from buying land.

I know you disapprove of it, but it's a solid idea with little implementation. The idea of using scaled resale values, changes depending on the L. Using a set term to define L's cannot work unless the LindeX stays at a set price. 4L now, wasn't what it was 4 months ago, and it probably won't be what it is now, 4 months for now. If the L were to take a dive back down to 325 per dollar, it's almost a dollar difference. Going up to 6 for 3072, you're looking at a difference of 2 dollars. If it grows stronger and comes to 250 per dollar, at 6, that's an additional 75 cents or so. Sure it sounds menial, but if you are going to be talking about how much money they'd stand to lose in the first place, it's only 6 bucks for the first month and they'd stand to gain 2 bucks in the second month.



They aren't wavering anymore, they can't even find first land period. And frankly, not everyone wants 512's to 'check it out'. Lots of people only need that much for a small store. It's not always... hmm... lemme get a land and see what happens. It's quite often, I want a small home or store for now to get started for a few months. I own a 512 for my small lil space of a store.

And if they can see that they can recoup costs after 45 days, then there is no issue with it, aside from relinquishing before that, but that's certainly alot better than gambling on what the LindeX will do depending on your length. At least you know where you stand going in.

I'm not so sure you are correct in the island sales having anything to do with mainland parcels. Private islands have never had an effect on mainland aside from not having to deal with griefers and ugly for sale signs everywhere. There's not a land shortage on any other common size. The only thing there is a shortage of is first lands. There are plenty of 512's for sale. There are plenty of 1024's, etc.

Burning a set value of land with an economy that wavers is a bad idea.

That's the Linden Labs way. They did it with Reputation bonus, they did it with Dwell and DI, the only reason they haven't done it with First Land is that First Land is a net profit for them. Every FL sim nets then US$1280. Auctions don't guarantee that much, even if they can go over that now and then.

Limit the sale price, but no more than is necessary to eliminate the profit. Limit the window of opportunity, by limiting FL by IP or to bank-account or non-debit cards.

Have FL handed out by lot each month... you apply for FL (and deposit your $10.00 if you're not already premium... and if you don't get it that month you can get your $10.00 back or let it ride)... the Land Barons would have to line up hundreds of thousands of accounts to have an effect on the results.

I've already pointed this out, but they don't need to track the Linden precisely. They just need to track it well enough to limit the profit you get from gaming the system. And I've already accounted for the change in the value of the Linden by specifying L$4/sm, not L$1750 or whatever the current "breakeven" value is on today's market.

And, besides, your scheme depends on land prices remaining at record highs once the sim shortage goes away. How likely is that?

[/quote]They aren't wavering anymore, they can't even find first land period.[/quote]That's a temporary situation. You know it's a temporary situation.


Then they can buy that land on the market. First Land is intended to give people a taste of land ownership who wouldn't try it otherwise.

The LindeX these days is a lot more stable than land prices, despite the best efforts of certain people to undermine it.

Absolutely. Linden Labs has cut back the number of parcels they're releasing into the FL and Auction queue, and people who own island sims are seeing people moving to the mainland because they're worried about

I have both kinds of land, and both have their problems.

Market prices are a measure of the availability of land. If there were no land shortage then you'd still be seeing 1024s for L$7500-L$9000, not L$10000-L$15000. The market is real efficient at turning 1024s at L$7500 into pairs of 512s for L$4000 if there was some kind of shortage restricted to some specific size.

You can't avoid that if you're going to limit land prices (whether to 512 or to 1024 or to 204 to block profits. The only question is whether the scheme supports the goal of First Land or undermines it. Your scheme undermines it.

If LL can only start up 8 servers a month (16 to 32 sims) and there's a backorder of private islands, they can't start up as many Mainland sims as if there were only 3 or 4 island requests.

That would mean that everyday, someone has to crunch the numbers to maintain that it's fair and of good standing. More money out of LL's pockets. They won't spend money to make money in that sense.



No, it's not. First land is what it says it is. A first parcel for people to own. Who are you to determine what it's specific purpose is? LL has stated that first land is for the landless. Well, regardless of how you go to use that land, you'd be landless. Since it's what LL has said it is, I will go off thier word for what it is.



Today, for now maybe. If it was so stable it wouldn't have shot up to 340/1. LL selling L's and eliminating many sinks caused it to come back to the current state. All it takes is for 5-10 people to start outpricing each other to bring it right back up. Half the people that are cashing out now, don't even realize there's an advanced sales tab you can switch to to determine the price you sell at.



You didnt' finish that thought, so I'm gonna go off a half statement. LL hasn't had TIME to release all this new stuff in the rush of everything lately. They are releasing less, but they haven't cut back overall. Also, added to that, I have it on good authority that LL is waiting to release a mass amount more land to drive up sales of private sims in the current (of course the current situation in world isn't helping). It's called good marketing. Make a product less available, so the demand outstrips supply, then announce a mad crazy sale at the same price... can't find land? Get in now to buy an island! And it worked.




I don't disagree that one doesn't have problems or the others, but as I've said before, mainland is less attractive to someone with means.



You have that a little off. What's happening currently is those that are selling for decent prices (such as 6-8m) are grabbing them and driving the economy up from the profits off first lands (and buying 2 FL's together and combining). In fact, I sold my land within minutes, marking it at 10m (sorta wishful thinking kind of pricing considering my neighbors), thought if I sell, great, if not.. no biggie. It was bought up, and put up for sale at almost twice the price... and it sold. If people are willing to pay that much, great... (and currently the for sale search is so crazy with covenants, people are happy to even find a place), but 1024's have pretty much held steady. When I owned my mall, I bought in increments of 1024 in April, that I have now. I did buy a 4096 when I moved my mall, which is the same as it is now. It's the 512's that have gone up to great increase over this time to people either not knowing about FL at all and paying that price or expanding thier current 512's instead of moving to a cheaper 1024.

I've been a resident since early this year and recently I've been thinking about upgrading to a Premium membership. But, after reading this thread and the issues contained within, I have to agree with the points raised that the current system is not only prohibitive but most of your suggestions are also rather prohibitive for the 'new' user.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am not schooled in the intricate nature of macro or micro economics. I don't normally understand how these things work..

But, the whole thing is rather disheartening and I don't think I'll be upgrading past my free account for a while. Not when the chances of getting my 'First Land' are about the same as my winning the state lottery.

Just my $.02

Perse

L$4/sm would serve the purpose for any value that the Linden has had in the past year and a half that I've been on. And we're talking about a calculation of about three numerical operations on a figure that they're already calculationg for statistical purposes... the value of the Linden.

I'm repeating what Linden Labs has said.

The market value of the Linden at that time was actually around L$360 per dollar, based on the cost of buying Lindens by getting an annual account. Thus, the Linden continued to fall towards that point. Reducing the stipend to L$400 and L$300 (that is, gradual changes of the kind I'm suggesting) has brought the real market value back into the range that the LindeX is actually trading in.

It's *always* safer to make a gradual change in policy. It does less damage.

That's just restating what I just said. Your speculation about why they're releasing less land may be more correct than mine, but it doesn't change the key fact: that they *are* releasing less new land right now, and that is driving up prices. Whether they're reducing the supply now because they have to (my speculation) or because they're squeezing the market (your speculation) doesn't matter. Whether there's going to be a return to more land availability because they will be able to field more sims (my speculation) or because they want to drive up sales (your speculation) doesn't matter. The fact remains that the current shortage is temporary... and if it isn't, it's because Linden Labs *wants* to starve us of land.

So what's to stop you from buying a 1024 at L$8/sm and splitting it into two 512s and selling each at L$10/sm? Either EVERYONE in the land business is too dumb to think of that, or there's no relative shortfall of 512sm parcels after all.

First land is free with a $8 premium account. Basically - you pay $8 US for 512 m2.

I'm on a free account. I pay Anshe Chung L$2000 (<$8 US) for a 1024 m2 parcel.

I don't see any point at all in buying first land. Land is what pays Linden's bills. I'm sure they know everything about land and what it costs, etc... While they get more money per meter with small parcels, I believe it increases their work load a very great deal. I think Linden are very happy having independent people, like Anshe Chung, buy land in huge quantities and sell it on to customers for a number of reasons:

1) Cheaper for the players.
2) Profitable for the land lord.
3) Profitable and convenient for Linden Labs - no need to check parcels for covenant compliance, no nothing. Just one check, once a month, and zero work load... Lower profit per m2, yes, but with the lower workload - I bet it's MORE profitable in the long run.

I think Linden will be phasing out the first land concept completely. Just a matter of time.

AD

I still believe selling all new land at auction is the way to go.

If LL wants to encourange or help people to buy land, then just give them a credit (say L$1000 or whatever set amount) the first time anyone buys ANY land, through auction or direct purchase.

So if you've never bought any land before, you know you can buy the land you really want and get L$1000 back from Linden instead of playing this 512 m^2 parcel sillyness.

It's like in RL getting a first-home tax-rebate at the end of the year.

-peekay

Except that you also recieve a stipend of L$1200/month, which you can cash out for US$4 (or, more likely, which saves you from buying US$4 worth of L$), meaning that your 512 actually only costs you between $2 and $6 per month.



There is no covenant on First Land sims. The only thing the Lindens have to enforce on First Land sims is the TOS and they can do that on private sims too.

Amidst all these negatives about First Land, please allow me to submit a positive post.

I recently was lucky enough to snag a piece of first land. This is my first SL account and character. I was excited about the prospect of building and decorating my own home. The section that recently opened in Conclurry was mostly first lands. Within moments a whole bunch of us newbies had descended on the place and were looking at the land.

Ultimately all the land got bought. Some of it went right back up for sale. Some of it, however, began growing buildings and other things. One thing I found that was nice was that my home was surrounded by a bunch of other newbies. Why is this nice? Because we sort of bonded together in our newbieness.

If land was just land for sale in general, that opportunity to meet other newbies and form a genuine neighborhood wouldn't likely have happened. If you ever want to see a nice newbie neighborhood, come to Conclurry and visit the area by the beach and know that its all owned by newbies.

I have made at least 6 new friends just from moving onto my land.

I suspect that the real problem here is that SL membership is growing exponentially, while SL land is growing more or less linearly. Until they can fix that, SL land prices will continue to rise dramatically. But it's HARD to grow land exponentially (enough to keep up with the population.) They'd have to hire new employees exponentially, which is a nightmare in itself. (Probably they ARE growing fast, but at a lower rate than SL residents.)

There's more to creating land than just saying so, it isn't done by fiat. Creating land requires setting up a server (hardware -- a computer). It takes some land design, unless that's entirely left to the users (which would lead to mayhem). No doubt it takes other things.

Land value is rising dramatically, and that's a burden on new users. I like the suggestion of resale time limitations unless you buy a full year subscription, but I doubt whether it would really eliminate the problem of limited new land availability. However, it would reduce the problem, and it would avoid profiteering. It's a suggestion that's definitely worth trying.

If that doesn't work, and assuming it's true that FL really isn't available (I don't know, haven't signed up for that tier yet), then I think Peekay is right: let the free market do what it's best at, which is assigning values to things, especially limted commodities. If the price of land gets too high, that discourages new landowner tier members. That gives LL time to catch up with the membership, and as prices come down, more members join that tier.

If LL could, I bet they'd create so much land that there wouldn't be much profit in quickly buying and reselling new land. This would be the ideal situation. In that case, land prices would rise due to local development rather than limited quantity, and that would be ideal for the SL community. Given how SL membership is growing, that's not likely to happen soon, unless LL really goofs up and people stop joining.

Carah, very good point: I agree that it's a great thing that newbies tend to get land in clusters -- sort of like new residential neighborhoods in RL. Leads to a sense of community, maybe only sometimes, but worth trying for!

Cheap land for everyone -- even if it were possible -- is not ideal for SL. Such an arrangement only produces vast quantities of waste, such as abandoned lands, partially constructed lands, etc.

Such is true with any cheap resource. For example, free basic accounts mean the proliferation of Alts. Cheap email result in spam. Cheap land would be similarly wasteful.

When land has value, it creates motivation for land owners to develop and maintain it, which in turn gives it additional value.

So let the market determine all land values. Help or incentive for first time owners could come in the form of credit or rebates, as I suggested in a previous post.

-peekay

I agree, Pekay. That doesn't contradict what I said above,
The more I think about it, though, the more I tend to think that you're right that free market with a dutch auction is probably the best path. After all, L$4000 is only US$14, so we're not talking about huge investments here. And as I mentioned above, if LL doesn't build new land fast enough, new users will be discouraged from joining landowner tier by the high land prices. That reduces LL's profit. I like an incentive for them to keep building new land quickly.

If it were up to me, though, I'd still probably give FL resale restrictions a try, for users who pay for less than a year up front. That would stop most of the offensive behavior and still allow reasonable flexibility in consolidation (so goups can trade land to combine parcels). And it would be less of a change from the current policy, with better incentive to join. (After all, LL wants folks to join in land tier!)