Get rid of "first-land" concept

Actually, the only thing that is verified against a card is zip code. (they enter that when you buy it usually too) I've created an alt that had an address of 107 North Pole, Roly Poly Colorado, then the correct zip. Still works.

And as for your last comment, look for my thread below, I've mentioned a 45 day wait time to resell land at a profit. You can resell as first land this way, and after 45 days if you don't want your land, you sell it at current market and you get all your money back and like an extra dollar.

But you can't take extremes as examples.

Frankly, why have the program if they can buy up to market value? As I have pointed out already, that defeats the entire purpose altogether. At least right now, if you watch really, really, closely and follow Guy Linden around, you have a shot at 512 for land.

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Get rid of first-land concept! Toss out the program completely!! Which is after all the title of this thread.

The "first-land" concept is just an illusion. There are 1.7 million SL users today, most of them "new". How many 512 m^2 "first land" parcels were made available to them?

It's not fair to promise newbies "hey you can get land for cheap" when the majority of them cannot! That's just false advertising!

"First-land" is not benefitting the vast majority of newbies, and it will be even more untenable as SL's growth rate accelerates.

So get rid of it. Replace it with a system that is at least the same for everyone. There is nothing wrong with paying fair market value. What is wrong is the current system where newbies end up paying inflated prices to profiteers.

-peekay

I like 1st land.

A very easy way to stop land barons exploiting the system is only make it available for people when they first pay a YEARLY subscription for their account.

It wouldnt be financially profitable for a baron to create hundreds of yearly premium accounts.

I think this is all kind of moot.

For a start I see first land for sale /all the time/. I'd say there's unbought first land up for sale maybe 30% of the entire day, every day.

Secondly, land prices are going a little haywire right now due to the private sim price changes but things will settle eventually and I'm betting they'll settle so 512s are worth less than 10 bucks.

If that doesn't happen then the simplest solution would be to simply release more first land. That will drive the price of land down and once they're worth less than 10 dollars land traders won't be able to create accounts to buy them and we'll all have to resort to the usual tactic of harassing newbies to sell their land for a 5th of their value.

Meanwhile, perhaps I'm wrong, but isn't there a 10 dollar start up fee PLUS a 10 dollar a month charge, meaning the minimum to start a new account is 20 bucks?

So, instead of fixing it, just get rid of a very well intentioned program with flaws? Hey, let's do that with SL! It's a well intentioned program subject to flaws, bugs and miscreants taking advantage of the platform... do away with it!

While you sit here and talk about this and that... if there is no first land, outside of buying a sim, how do you propose Lindens selling land at fair market value? Then THEY would control real estate because they could set the price at 3kL, it's swooped up in the same manner and resold for 7k. That would be a never ending cycle. LL would control fair market value just as first land pricing and the land barons would just make it more expensive. Then FMV is recalculated... and bam it happens again.

I'm asking you for a viable replacement system, that helps out new people, but doesn't confine them or put LL in control of who pays what. You've basically said ideas that just aren't feasible.

Firstly, you are too funny! All the time? I had a hard time reading the rest of your post, but it really does show how out of touch you are in this area. You could also stroll through LA and RA and find out just how many people WANT first land.

*First Land is hardly ever available.
*Land prices ARE NOT going nuts. They've held the same average pricing, because first land is on the mainland, NOT a private sim.
*Wrong, there are hundreds waiting to snatch up first land when it comes available. The profit at this point is completely worth it. The more they release, the more the barons profit.
*They are not creating alt accounts off thier primary credit card account. They are getting disposable debit cards, creating a free alt by checkmarking 'no, this is my first account' and then taking the money, funneling it back to the main and disposing of the alt.
*You are wrong in the pricing as well. There is NO start up fee, just the 10 a month for membership. Along with getting back 300 a week right now in stipends. Minimum to start is essentially only 5-6 bucks. First land sells for 14-18.

Again, all new land should be made through auction. "THEY" would not set some lot's price at $3k. The market would set prices. It would not be possible for "barons" to buy some land at $3k then quickly sell it for $7k.



With the rate of SL growth, there is no "first-land" concept that is feasible, and there is no viable replacement system. I'm proposing we get rid of the idea completely. That's obviously feasible, albeit would be unpopular.

While "helping new people" is a fine sentiment, it might not be practicable in reality.

Consider how many 512 m^2 first-land parcels were made available for the 1.7 million current SL users?

And how many new first-lands must brought online when the population soon doubles to 3.4 million?

LL would have to bring online hundreds of thousands (!) of new 512 m^2 parcels -- and continue bring them online at an exponential growth rate -- for any "first-land" system to be viable.

With double the population, even if only 10% of newbies become interested in a first land, LL would have to make ~200,000 new 512 m^2 parcels available soon!

I just don't see that happening, which is why I don't consider any "first-land" concept to be viable, aside from the current broken one.

-peekay

Well I give up! This is nuts... The only reason I am paying for the prem was to try out land but I see I am wasting my money if I wait for nothing but firstland. So today I just went and rent some issland space and since I am doing it under a gorup I don't even need the prem account. I am not going to keep paying for a dead horse.

Peekay, there are several VERY good ideas on how to help out in first land, it seems you want the simple answer, regardless of how it looks.

I can't change your mind about not helping newbs and you can't change mine about helping them.

I just really hope that LL doesn't listen to your idea. What makes this place great is the help given to newbs.

What if first land could only be sold off as first land? That way when a newbie sells their first-land, it will remain first land for someone else. If they want to make money off it, then they set up a shop, or buy normal land if they want to land-baron. I think most newbies use their first-land for a home or private workshop anyway.

Additionally, this seems very much like an exploit to me, anyone doing it should be punished.

First Land appears in the land list every day that Guy Linden is online (most days). When first land regions are made available (every two/three weeks), he tends to carve them up over a period of two or three days, during which time large quantities of First Land will remain in the land list for hours. I don't think that constitutes "hardly ever".
Minimum land value has increased dramatically over the past five weeks, presumably due to jitters about buying/renting (whatever you want to call it) on private sims since the late October price hike announcement, and the continuing explosion of newcomers. For example, for the six months from May 1st to November 1st, land barons would relieve you of your land (whatever its condition) for $2000L per 512m2, no questions asked. As of two weeks ago, that had jumped to $3500L. Today, it sits at $4000L. If you have a 512m2 plot and put it on the market for $4000L, it will sell in minutes. That kind of land value increase over such a short period is pretty nuts.
The vast majority of land up for sale out there is owned by land traders. Go fly around and see for yourself. They will buy up the vast majority of land at auction (as they already do) and dictate the minimum market rate themselves. It is their business to make a profit by selling to non-land traders so they set the margin. It is in their interest to own most of the land up for sale in order to dictate prices. I don't see how your system would change that. Land would be no more or less available to them.
Considering approx. 15,000 concurrent users are online at peak times, a considerable proportion of the userbase are alt accounts, a significant number of new accounts are used once or twice only, and the majority of new users never upgrade to premium, your calculations seem a trifle fanciful.

If you're only going premium for First Land, then it's best to wait for First Land to become available before going premium. A lot of new users don't seem to realise that if they don't have premium accounts when they click the 'Buy Land'* button, they will be upgraded on the spot. So no need to pay premium fees for a week or two while you're struggling to obtain it.

The calculation was based on a the "pre-boom" in-world statistic that 15% of SL users own land. So I was being conservative by using the 10% figure. The percent owner today would be less because, well, there is no first land available.

In any case, there is no denying that the vast majority of those interested in "first land" will never be able to obtain it.

For most, "first land" is just an empty promise.

-peekay

A mistake. The boom occurred because account verification was abandoned. Pre-boom, everybody had payment info on file and it took LL three years to achieve 140,000 sign-ups. The vast majority of the 1.6 million users added in the six months since this requirement were dropped don't even log-in.

There is First Land available. First Land is just never constantly available. It never has been.

I disagree.

Not at all.

So again, how many "first-lands" were made available for these 1.6 million users?

I'll give you a current statistic:

If we take *ALL* land that is currently for sale in-world (ALL of them, regardless of ownership or parcel size), and we turn them ALL into 512 m^2 first-land parcels, only about 13,000 units would be available.

That still equates to just 0.83% availability for 1.6 million users, or just 1 parcel for every 120 users. Remember, this is if all available land were converted to first-lands.

And what happens if we double the user population?

-peekay

So which is it? Is it a few days every week or every day Guy is on? Actually, if you want to become educated about how land has been becoming available, I suggest you poke through LA. Several different Lindens, including Guy have repeatedly stated that they haven't put up first lands, there are none left, I'll be opening some in 5 days. You are simply wrong. I'll take what the Lindens have to say on this one (and what I've seen with my own eyes), over what someone percieves anyday. On average, from following Guy around, per time, he only makes roughly 10-15 parcels available, roughly every 5 days. Within 1-4 minutes of making these available, they are gone. And within those... roughly about 8-13 see for sale signs within minutes. With a few more minutes a few more of those are sold to regular residents. This has been observed on my part through at least 8 different times.



Certainly seem to know alot about it eh? Well, this may be the prices you are offering, but 512's are still up for sale at 4-4500L with plenty available and have been for at least 2 months, which includes the 'boom' from island increases. Frankly, anyone with a flea's intelligence that deals in land knows the price affect has NOTHING to do with mainland where first land is available. And frankly, this timetable and pricing you put up would suggest scarcity in first land, not abundance. If there was first land always available.

Secondly, land barons don't deal in even trading. Your argument is moot. You are saying they are buying it at 4k, then say sales are at 4k. Why are they buying if not turning a profit?



Umm... no one is saying anything about the other lands out there. Do what they want for plots they've paid fair and full for. NOT first land. And umm... hello? You're arguing for my side with them dictating the market rate. With first land set up this way, it becomes no longer profitable and when a resident goes to sell, they can deem what's acceptable and what's not. The way *I* outlined fixes that. Put FMV into everyone's hands, not who has the most disposable income. Make it non profitable to own 200 512's of land for others and still allow new resi's who don't want to invest 45 days to think about it and recoup the costs.



You're reaching on this one I believe. I could easily agree that the near 2 million are this way, but not the online total. Surely there are duplicate computer alts on at the same. but not in mass proportion. Fact is, most of the people I meet and see and interact with have been born since 6-6-6. And most of them want land.

Now, I agree that the 200,000 is a stretch as well, but even at 2,000 residents wanting first land, there is ZERO available. Even if we go by the grandest of outlooks and say that 100 first lands open up every week (haha, that was funny just to type it), it would take more than 2 years to satisy less than 20% of ONLINE members right now. Let's not include any projected figures on how many will come on in that time as well.

Everything you stated after saying that there was first land always, suggests that there ISN'T first land always available.

After they get this mess cleaned up from the update, if they don't implement anything, I suggest they offer up 10 new sims on the mainland worth of first land. Shout it out and about it ahead of time. Make the sims closed until the sale opens. This way they can't flood the sim with alts from all thier friends or set up account to log in there right away. Also, this way everyone knows about it, and of course the barons will be there in full glory but how fast could they snatch up 320 (I think that's right) first lands with all these accounts? Your average land baron is sitting at home alone right now. Even with 4 copies of SL running, the most they could get in 5 minutes MAY... MAYBE, 8-10 pieces. If they can ninja relog, get all 5 comps on the same sims (hell of a bandwidth log for that many from home, might I add) and then buy again, and that's assuming the alt accounts can 'get' into the sim.

Firstly, the numbers on the front page are fluff. At one point before the million mark, people were making tons of alts to become the 1 millioneth for the hell of it. At that time, the log in stats were that from 950,000 users to 1,010,000 users, only about 15,000 even logged on. Currently from the 1.7 million users only .7 have logged on in the last 60 days.

I'm a newbie and I bought some just this week. Having land has increased my appreciation of the game, made me want to buy more and play (build) more. I'd never have afforded it at any other price and might have lost interest by the time I had half the money.

How about ruling that First land *always* goes for that price unless rezoned by Lindens? By the time newbies are ready to move on they should have more cash, if you stop the profit aspect then you stop the land barons? If you want to get money from land then you could do that later, meanwhile players like me get the benefits of a play area.

Problem is, we can't have mainland sims with only (or mostly) 512 m^2 first-land parcels, because we'd quickly run into max agents per sim limits. Newbies wouldn't be able to get to their new lands because those regions would be full all the time.

Yet suppose -- for discussion's sake -- they were able to immediately bring up 10-sims worth of first-lands on superfast machines and bump up the sim limits. 10-sims equates to only 1280 first-land parcels, and wouldn't even come anywhere close to satisfy the first-land promise now, much less the future.

Even if we come up with a perfect scheme where no alts nor profiteers can purchase any first-lands, there still wont be enough first-lands available to the majority of new users. At best, such scheme would just delay the inevitable.

-peekay

Well, considering the usage of the lands, once they were bought up, I doubt everyone would be in thier land at the same time.

1280 is a lot better than none, right? Frankly, I doubt there's more than maybe 2000 people looking for first land legitamately. Like I Said, you believe in the fluff numbers, but I know better. But this means that 1280 premium accounts come on in, and that's a nice chuck of 12,800 bucks in premium memberships a month. They do this and then start selling first land on the older mainland and while we may never catch up depending on growth, it's certainly stupid to scrap an entire program because not EVERY SINGLE PERSON gets exactly what they want. At least that way, it makes it available to a larger consumer base.

At least I'm coming up with ideas as opposed to going... nope, can't and shouldn't happen.

If 1.7 million SL users all go Premium, that means LL are recieving at least US$10.2 million. Per month!

In those circumstances I think they could probably manage to significantly increase the First Land rate. That is, once they've finished dancing in the streets with joy



If newbies are charged an extra US$13 to even begin to take advantage of their Premium, less people will go Premium, and less land will sell.

It’s annoying when a piece that you want goes up as first land since you have to wait for someone to buy it before buying it from them.

I think "first land parcels" should have two different prices.
A LL set price that is in the high end of the average land sale price, Let’s say $6000 per 512SQ, and still let new users buy it at the $1L per SQ.

That's an interesting concept, but I'm not sure it's doable with the way it live updates when you go to buy (such as L left, tier, etc.)

I do like that idea though. At least in theory.

Please, no need to resort to personal attacks. I'm entitled to have an opinion just like you are.

Those numbers are based on SL's economic page and assumes every single piece of all available land and regardless of ownership gets converted to first-land, which clearly is not possible.

If you believe Linden Labs is publishing false or misleading "fluff numbers" then perhaps another thread should be started.

Thanks,

-peekay