Linden Lab! Please do NOT ever implement any kind of gender verification in SL!

For all those I think youd need to use dates.

Furry Verification - Shots given on ..

Gorean Verification - Branded on ..

Griefer Verification - First Drive by done on ..

Brown Hair - last bleached blonde hair grew out on ..

Age Player - Banned on ..

It must be a guy thing....

Online.... Gender Identification is only necessary when dealing with people that insist on typing with their naughtybits.

Your opinion is despicable.
How is it "wrong" to hide one's real life gender in a virtual world? What "moral" does it break?

Let me quote someone else, as I feel the same way:

IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
If you want to know, ask me. Who knows? Maybe I'll share.

Oh, wait, you'll want pictures.

Maybe not.

It begins to look as though LL may be applying a rule that they will release your RL details in response to a request from your local law-enforcement if they suspect a crime in your local jurisdiction.
Even though that may not be a crime in California.

We really need to know if this is true, and where the limits may lie, if there are any.

This thread raises another possible example.

It is perfectly likely that we may have female residents living in a jurisdiction where it is illegal for a biological female to represent or depict hersef as a male. Or the other way round.

How would LL react to a request to provide RL details so that such a person can be prosecuted (assuming such prosecution would be correct according to the law of the land in which they live ?) ?

Or will LL protect us provided we don't breach California law, wherever we live ?

Shouldn't we know ?

Hear hear. Personally I have no problem verifying my identity to LL, whom I have a RL legal agreement with. But I have no moral obligation whatsoever to share anything about myself with just anyone in SL. I may chose to do so, but unless I do it is none of your business. In my SL dealings, the only thing that matters (beyond the legal question whether you can be prosecuted for cybering with me) is my SL identity.

The beauty of SL is that identity is a fluid concept here, a kind of freedom most people don't have (or would have to pay too high a price for) in RL. We can explore other parts of ourselves, or even explore what it would be like to be somebody else entirely. The bored housewife can have a taste of what it's like to be a man eater. The shy boy can be king of the PvP combat sim. The office clerk can be a creative builder or texturer. The down to earth practical woman can be a fluttery fairy. We can be a robot, elf, medieval lord, horse, gnome, samurai or Lady of the Lake, all at the change of some skin, clothes, shape and the attitude that goes with it. An avatar is not, and should not have to be, the RL you. It can be as close to or as far from the RL you as you wish and know how to act. Just because some Horny Net Geek thinks it is important to know what my gender is to make sure he is not making a fool of himself by hitting on a guy (oh, horror of horrors!) does not make him entitled to know anything about who is sitting at my computer. My SL persona du jour is what he has to go on; as it should be. In SL I can reinvent myself.

I am actually sorry I chose such a unambiguously feminine name when I created my account. Had I realised the full potential of possibilities in SL, I would have chosen differently, just to have the extra freedom to explore. When I make an alt, I will definately be sure to chose a unisex name: a Sage, Ash, Rory or Wren has so much more freedom to explore different parts of xis (or is that xer?) identity than a Suzy or an Alexander.



Just to do a hypocrisy check: when you get up in the morning, are your teeth as pure white and clean as your avatar's? Does your hair look as good as your avatar's? Do you even have that much hair? Is your sense of style as good in Real Life? Do you have the same body type in Real Life? Waspish waist? Big muscles? or whatever the shape of your avatar, does it reflect reality? Are you as young in Real Life as your avatar appears to be? No wrinkles? Is the way you earn your living in Real Life as inspiring as the way you life your Second Life? Are you as freakishly tall in Real Life? Are you just as articulate in Real Life as you are when safely sitting at you computer? As easygoing? Are your dancing skills in Real Life as good as they can be when using SL animations? Are your Real Life genitals the same size as those in SL? If the answer to any of these questions is 'no', do you reveal those facts about the 'real' you to the public at large through an easily accessible means?

Don't worry, I am not going to challenge you to post a naked just out of bed picture of yourself. Your naked just out of bed butt is none of our business. The point is, when I meet that stunning virile male avatar, there may be a little fat bearded balding middle aged boring socially inept in RL four-eyed dwarf of a man sitting at his computer. And when I meet that stunning buxom female avatar, there may be a little fat bearded balding middle aged boring socially inept in RL four-eyed dwarf of a man sitting at his computer. Is the latter being so much less 'truthful' about his Real Life than the former that suddenly it's 'morally repugnant'? I think not. I think it is simply none of my business. I am interacting with the part of this person's personality that he presents in SL. That is all there is to it. If he or she is nice, I will talk to him/her. If he/she is a prick, I will ignore him/her. The package sitting at some computer somewhere never enters the equation.

What if--very honestly--I answered 'yes' to all those questions?

The reason I find it morally repugnant to play a cross-gender without declaring so to the public is because we all have a right to know with whom we are interacting. I understand that many people create idyllic avatars...and I don't have a problem with that. Myself...I literally gave someone a RL picture of me and said "Make me a shape that looks like that". I dress the same, act the same, have the same job, etc. My SL persona is an extension of my RL persona.

In my opinion, gender is a very important identifying factor in interaction and it skews the way you act and speak around someone. Maybe it's just my feeling that gender is an extremely important factor in human interaction.

Is my ideal that all avatars look like their RL counterparts? Yes.
Is it going to happen? No.
Do I think I have a basic right to know something like gender? Yes.

Gender is a BASIC human trait. It defines who we are.

I second that. What's next?? My breast size?? Give me a break...LL won't do that, it'll drive ppl out...fast.

Mandy C

You have a right to your opinion of what would be 'ideal'.

But



You don't have that right.



Gender is not that exclusive or static. Some of us are cross-gendered, those who have the body of one gender and the mind, spirit or essence if you will of the other. Some of us are gender-queer, those whose gender is fluid, who can 'swing both ways' so to speak, who have a broad and divers gender identity. Some of us are androgynous, somewhere in between with a personality that cannot be clearly defined as one or the other. All of us have traits of the feminine and the masculine combined in ourselves. If I were to explore my masculine traits in SL, my masculine appearance would be all you need to know to interact with me. What kind of plumbing my RL body happens to have is as little your business as how much I weigh or what size my breasts are.

Some reading material on this non-bipolar human trait...

Just goes to show that when one gives out freedoms, some people immediately use theirs to restrict the freedoms of others. Your vision of what SL is and can be, is highly specialised. One could criticise it or you, but that's largely meaningless - your choices are your choices.

There's a wide range of options available to help you achieve what you want already - you can put in your profile that this is your play requirement. You can require that everyone you play with puts a photo up in their 1st life tab; you can set up some land or an island and impose conditions on it - heaven knows, the Goreans have an equally "specialised" set of strictures and they do well at it.

What you /cannot/ do though, is demand that everyone else puts in the effort (and suffering) so that you do as little as possible to achieve what you want. If your idea is worth upholding, then people will come to your space and show you they like your concept. If it's not, they won't. That's a much more reliable (and low-effort) starting point for this philosophy than demanding that all the "fakes" stop playing just because they gross you out.

(for what it's worth, I wander around looking very much like I do in RL. I say that I do, in my profile; this probably loses me more encounters than it gains, because everyone - and I do mean, EVERYONE assumes that an av is a reflection of a mentally desired presentation instead of a physical simulacrum, and hence that one can't be a complex human being - it's all surface. However, I find myself remarkably unable to change that av. Can't figure out why: so I should be your ideal supporter. Except, problem is: I think you're a jackass)

Why - if the person is a stranger to you does it really matter? I can see that for people you know it can matter a lot. But just passing someone on a street and saying hello ...



Wow - Id like to know why this is?
Do you also think we should use our RL names?
Do you see SL as a 3D Eharmony or something?



Of every single person in Second Life? I dont see why it matters, still even after your post.

On the people you want to interact with on more than a small talk level ? Maybe I guess I can see that.

I personally am okay with gender information on my profile - but I find your position a bit extreme- since, for example, you want information on people who you dont even have on your friends list.

Xyr, actually.



Then I am dragon. You need not know more.
My SL self IS and extension of my RL self, just not my physical self. I know many who are like this, and some aren't the same gender as their real physical self either.

So you know what? You can shove your "ideal" where the sun don't shine, because no one's going to conform.

MY ideal is one free from the bounds of "real life."

I'm a guy..againt it.




Bzzt. Wrong. Try again. You don't have that right, you just want it. Its a desire, a sense of entitlement.

Even if I meet you on my female I will purposefully lie to you just to show you morals are subjective. To me, lying to a morally repugnant restricter of freedoms is A-Ok.

So, is Pat from SNL male or female? Any why does it matter?

And I thank the Chaos above that I'm not human! Sheesh.. y'all are some really messed up animals!

I think this is a private matter between people.
Something that if needed could and should be negotiated between them when and if they ever reach the verge of any intimacy in which sexuality or gender becomes significant.

I don't personally need or seek SL relationships with any sexual component, though like most people, I explored a couple of times when I first arrived.

In both cases, when intimacy became a possibility, I felt able to confide that as a biological RL male I personally would not find it acceptable to proceed if the other party was biologically male too. I asked them to respect my feelings, and find a way to draw back if necessary. No need for a direct answer - any intelligent person could find a way of withdrawing which is sufficiently ambiguous.

One did, one didn't.

The one who didn't might of course have been deceiving me, but I don't think so.

It's all about respect for others - giving each other ambiguous exit routes, and never tittle-tattling about the outcome.

Nowadays anyone who feels strongly about it can request at least some extra reassurance via the "voice" route if they think it appropriate.

A request which can, of course, always be declined.

Well, it definitely seems like this subject is very emotional for a lot of people. It's interesting to see personal insults and derogatory comments flamed at my for my own personal beliefs. Aren't you, as members upholding the 'moral righteousness' of an opposing viewpoint ALSO attempting to force your ideal on me?

To the poster who believes that gender is not a basic human trait and who feels that persons may have a 'different gender inside': You hold that belief. I do not. I am sure you are aware that there are a great many people on both sides of that fence. My difference is that I accept you for who you are and what you wish to be -- but you, apparently, do not respect me for who I am and what I wish to be. All I'm asking for is a "female on the inside, male on the outside" or similar identification.

To the person who's main difficulty is with my desire to have gender identification a 'public': Yes, it is really only personally important among those I call friend. Am I affected by those I do not interact with who choose to lie about their gender? Not directly. However, if such an action is deemed 'acceptable', then the action tends to become more and more prevalent and the likelihood of having a friend who feels justified outright lying to me is greatly increased.

To the person who hatefully expressed their desire to lie to me. That is your choice. I would only refer back to the old addage "two wrongs don't make a right".

To the person who stated that morality is relevant: You and I will never in our life ever be able to think about possibly maybe getting along. Morality is not relevant. The theory of relativity belongs only to the physical sciences.

I have noticed in this discussion again a trend that strikes through the core of modern human society and has me at once baffled and dismayed. We draw seemingly arbitrary lines in the sand defining what is politically correct and what is not.

Example: If it is wrong for me to request that cross-gender players define their real gender in a place of their profile, why is it right for persons to demand that avatars look adult? Or even claim that they are RL over-18? Per the LL TOS we MUST be over 18, so isn't it my right to decide to play a 15 year old boy and claim to be so in my profile?

Another Example: Homosexuality is widely accepted in our society today, but polygamy or mutually-consensual sex with an already sexually active under-18 teenager is not. Is this not like saying "Blacks are o.k., but Asians and Arabs--we still hate you."?

In closing:
If Linden Labs were to require gender verification, I would scream. I am screaming about this new 'give us all your sensitive info' age verification as well. However, I was trying to point out that gender verification, at least to some of us, is MORE acceptable than the current age-verification and explain that I feel morally disgusted that someone is unwilling to share their RL gender with those they choose to interact with. There are many interaction possibilities that an unknowing person may engage in that they would NEVER do if they knew the person on the other end wasn't the gender they claimed to be. Such situations ARE morally repugnant. I do not give you opium and tell you that it's aspirin. I let you choose your actions based on actual information.

Anyway...I am not about 'forcing' my ideals upon anyone. I am, however, about discussing my ideals and sharing a point of view that may differ from yours. I also enjoy reading opinions that differ from mine. AND...my opinion can change from time to time. Ms. Meiji may very well be right that I should not wish anyone but my friends to gender-identify themselves to me. I will have to think on that...but please everyone, we ALL have morals and beliefs...and just because mine are not yours does not mean that I need to be shouted down and forced into your morals.

Linden Labs has already stated some of your personal Identification will be made availble on your profile.

Ignoring a moment what exactly will be presented.

I wonder if it makes more sense to only Display the information to People you share a group with or is on your freinds list.

This would allow you access to any place you need access to based on this info - using a group controls.

Without adding all this personal information to every person who walks bye

Of course the info should be able to be turned off - but as long as its availble some people will be interesting in seeing it ..

I guess im more thinking out a compromise on something thats coming.


-Back on topic-

They havent expressed that gender verification will be coming however.

Theres been times Ive wished I could display gender verification information in Second Life. So it would be really inconsistant for me to say it has no place at all.


Still,
Im not sure that any of this verification on Identity other than Age is a good idea. wed be be better off if they just banned potentially US illegal activity then kept ID information in my opinion.

That way - you might not be able to gamble - but you wont get investigated by the Feds for doing it either.

Excuse me? I specifically stated that you have every right to your opinion of what would be ideal. You are free to reflect all kinds of personal information, including gender, in your profile. You are also free to refuse to interact with people who don't have some proof of gender in their profile. That is all your choice. A choice I would even defend if necessary, because I think not only the freedom of opinion of those who agree with me should be defended, but also the freedom of opinion of those I disagree with.

What you were proposing however, was not a matter of your personal choice with whom to interact. You were talking about having a 'right' to know someone's gender, of others having some obligation to divulge that information lest they be branded 'morally repugnant', instead of just a personal right not to interact with those of unknown gender. Yet you are pulling the 'oppressed' card? You were not talking about your right of personal choice, you were talking about some 'right' to infringe on the freedoms of others. Yes, that will get you slapped. I will give you all the freedom you need to be yourself; as long as you are willing to grant others the same. Even if you don't like their legitimate personal choices. And even if you don't 'believe' in their kind of identity. It doesn't even matter what you believe. It's not your identity, is it?



Shouted down? You mean by getting called 'morally repugnant' perhaps? Yes, by all means let's avoid doing that to each other

Once identification is in place (first step is age verification to LL), it's easy for them to just extend it from there, and as the thread shows, there are people who will be asking for it, and it will end up being trivial for LL to add, since they know who you are.

Snipped out the chatter that wasn't part of Eric's questions and Linden responses:

How would this verification take place. A checkbox? You can check any gender you want. Attach a copy of your birth certificate, driver's license or passport to your profile? DNA Sample? Affadavit from your mother? While you are at it, you better make sure the alleged age/ identity/ gender/ verified person you are going to have a simulated relationship with also verifies their marital status as well. Many people find infidelity Morally Repugnant as well.

Ahh interesting


I hope Robin isnt as Naive as that

If Gender Verification becomes a profile thing - there will be no true option. For Verified accounts, Female avatars who dont use it will be assumed to be men.

Pretty much one step past voice, where people will assume female avatars who wont voice are men, or married, or both.

haven't you seen Porky's?

The way I see it, the verification company will generally be a data-mining company as well so they have plenty of information on you already from various sources and/or government-issued.

The only thing that's missing is which row in the database you represent, which is what age verification conveniently accomplishes as a side-effect.

Theres nothing wrong in what I would be doing by lying to you, also, it would not be hateful. Do not put emotions or cast judgements on such actions. There was no hate nor immorality involved in such a statement.

Morality is relevant, based how you are raised.. for instance someone raised as a strict catholic is more likely to be morally against homosexuality, while someone raised atheist is more likely to be morally accepting of homosexuality. Two very non gray areas. Two very moral stances. Just different ones.

You were trying to force your morals on us by calling those who did not indentify themselves as cross gender player s'morally repugnant' so don't start te high road now, you lost that path with your first post. You shouted down tried to force your morals on others, pushing us into a 'mold.' You are the only one guilty of it.