Pay by value scripting.

What is it that we all enjoy about SL? I enjoy scripting. Others enjoy building. Still others enjoy gun fighting. Someone else might enjoy just hanging out chatting and playing music. And as we all know, there are plenty of other things to do as well. The only thing that every activity in the world of SL has in common is the fact that it takes up resources. These resources are limited. You cannot build, script, play music, even chat without using the resources of the system, and in turn affecting the ability of the rest of the community to pursue their interests. I'm sure that none of us would play this game if the servers were so slow that we were all crippled, and couldn't do anything at all. If we all want to enjoy Second Life, this means that we all want to use our fair share of the worlds resources, the server resources.

So, how do we ensure that we all get our fair share? How can we make it so that no one for any reason cannot play because of a lack of resources? If we were allotted a fraction of the total resources to use each week, we could use those resources to do whatever we like, and no one could use more resources than they were allotted. This way, there will always be something for everyone. Of course, for most of us, we will inevitably want to use more resources than we have. This is the formula for an economy.

A few of you have claimed that the economic system is flawed and that charging based on server use would only ruin it further. I couldn't disagree more. The reason that the economy is flawed in the first place is because some limited and desired resource is not represented as its backing. We try to trade in Linden bucks, but our money only partly affects what we can and can't do, and not at all in the case of script use. This means that Linden bucks have almost no value. In contrast, think of your typical RPG. The currencies used in those games have value because they affect what you can and can't do. Without enough money you can't buy that new sword to kill that big ogre. The backing for the economy in the RPG is the desire to level up and get further in the game. In SL, the desire to do anything is the needed backing for the economy. If we need money in order to do what we want to do, then money will have value.

Now, when you think of taxes don't think of their confusing real life equivalent. Think of them as just paying for something. If you didn't pay, you couldn't do what you want to do. You couldn't have a house. You couldn't have a car. You couldn't eat. Paying taxes is just like spending your money, which is just like using your resources. You spend your money/resources and you get what you want in return.

If we were to equate money with server resources, this would not limit what we could create as a whole. The limit is already defined by the capacity of the servers. This would only ensure that we all got our fair share, and that no one could ruin eachothers fun by wasting resources for free. In fact, this may maximize what we can create as a whole by limiting waste. Of course I don't want to pay to run a script. I also don't want to pay to make a box. But, there is a limit to what the servers can do and we all want to do stuff.

No, I'm not a politician. No, I'm not trying to do something that will only benefit me. I love SL. I have been having a lot of fun with all of you. I would not have brought this up and defended it so much if I didn't feel strongly that this would make SL a much better place.

This one first heh: Lindens of course!

As for the rest:

Your argument about scripts could be extended to buildings: I could build some absolutly wonderful things, own huge amounts of land, if I didn't have to pay taxes on any of it, or rez costs.

Why do those things have taxes and costs? Because they use or are server resources which are limited. If land was free and no taxes, I would own an entire sim by now (literaly, there were a few empty ones when I started, or close enough and I coulda bought someone out). But that isn't fair to other people. Why? Because they deserve some of those system resources.

Well how many system resources do they deserve? Why do they deserve those? Who decides that they deserve those?

Those are the questions the economy is designed to solve.

First you create a big pool of available resources, which includes land space, how many shapes can be built and maintained, RAM, CPU cycles, bandwith, storage space and probably more. We will call these resources Rs.

Then you add an appropriate cost to things that take resources. Putting an object in world is worth 10R. Keeping an object in world costs more the larger it is, minimum of 1R per week. Uploading something to the server is also worth 10R.

Now to divy it up the R that are available.

Everyone deserves some R just for playing (and paying once it goes live). So we give out 1,000R per week to everyone.

But we also want to reward the people that make the place better, and we want the residents themselves to be able to decide this. So we have a rankings system where players can rank each other. The higher the rank, the larger a portion of the R pool you get.

To keep the world active though Lindens will personally distribute a set amount of the R for people who host events.

We will also give people a more direct way of saying "Wow this persons stuff is cool, they should have more of the available R" and add voting booths.

Now we take R when people use them and put them in the pool. Those R are divided up and given out accordingly. This works because the things that keep using resources keep getting taxed R. Which means you need to be getting allocated enough R to keep paying those taxes. The more you benefit the world the more R you get. In theory the better you help the world the more influence you have on it.

The problem is two of the biggest uses of R don't cost any R. Scripts and Physical Items. Scripts can be made that take way more R than a castle in the sky. And they cost nothing but the primitives to put em on. Objects with physics enabled can bring down a server with their usage of R, yet cost no more than their non physics counterparts that cause no such harm.

So you say: but look at all the cool scripts people have made while scripts were free! I say look at all the cool buildings people have made while they got taxed!

The cool scripts will still be made, the cool buildings will still be made. Making something that potentially uses huge amounts of R actually cost R is not a bad thing(tm).

And in Second Life R is the in game money. And to the best of my knowledge that is how it works. It is what you trade. Using the $ sign probably hurts the system more than anything else. You are essentially using a barter system. Someone had a car they want to sell, they say "Hey, I will give you this car for 3,000 resource units!". That is what they are saying.

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And now I know some of you are saying: Hey! What about that whole $3500 dollar cap confusion mess?

Well....

Long ago, in a place far far away there was no such mess. People would enter the world and start collecting their R. And keep collecting their R. They would stop playing and keep collecting R.

Now remember, we are dealing with 1 large pool of R. If people don't use it doesn't go back into the pool to get distributed out.

But these people aren't playing any more. And still collecting R. That no one else can use and no one else has access to.

So a cap was put in place. R from stipends and ratings bonuses will always go towards your taxes. If you have more R comming to you than your taxes - you deserve more resources than you are currently spending - well then you will get help starting, but not help hoarding.

If you have more R comming in from stipends and taxes then the carry over gets added to your account. As long as you have under 3,500R. However stipends and bonuses will never help you get more than 3,500R.

In essence the taxes are R you are currently using. Stipends and Bonuses are R you are allowed to use. If you are allowed more than you are using, good for you! If you are poor then that extra can give you some more R in your account, kind of a boost for the poor. Then you can buy more stuff to use more of the R you are allowed.

That was long, but I hope it helps people understand the economic system better and to see why scripts and physics items should be charged R.

Just so I am not misinterpreted, I am not advocating the removal of all taxes, nor do I believe that the economy is all that broken as it is now.

Second Life offers something that NO other MMOG provides--the ability to create virtually limitless things, places, people, etc. No other "game" offers that. No other "crafting" system is as unrestricted or unlimited as what you can "craft" in SL.

And, as would be expected, while some people would use that benefit for what most would consider generally positive use, there will always be those who will abuse the free reign and creativity and create things that are of negative impact to the people or the environment or both.

With great power comes great responsibility. Yeah, it's cliche, but it's also true. And yes, there are people in-world who will never care about or respect that responsibility. Furthermore, it's a judgement call based on subjective opinion and point of view as to what is which (which is a positive development and which is a negative, which is "good" and which is "bad".

Back to the point: To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. By putting on additional restrictions, taxes, costs to prevent "careless" (or even just unaware) people from doing "not good" things to the servers or the environment or whatever, you also place restrictions on people's creative abilities as well (positive AND negative). I would hate to see that happen here. Unfortunately, at the moment I do not have a better solution to offer, so I will have to spend some time thinking about that. I feel very strongly that it is important to maintain and protect the creation aspect of this world as much as possible, and I do not see additional dollar costs as a real solution.

At the very least, that is absolutly not what I am saying must be done.

What I am saying is that scripts need to be taxed for the exact same reasons that primitives are taxed. The exact. And any restriction are the same restrictions as primitives.

Primitives use resource and that is why they are taxed. Scripts use resources so they should be taxed.

Lights use extra resources so they are taxed extra. Physics enabled objects use more resources, so they should be taxed extra.

We are NOT talking about limiting here. We are talking about appropriate allocation of resources. Which is what the economy is supposed to do. And which in in some regard it is not doing, because the two things that can take the most server resources don't cost any.

It will not limit it any more than building is currently limited. And I still see huge magnificent buildings and projects being done, even though they are taxed. Huge and magnificent scripts will still be done even if they are taxed.

And that is a fact. The hope is that people will strive for more efficient code, and not put scripts on objects that are useless.

It would make scripting just like building. People would have to evaluate whether it was worth the cost. And the big magnificent ones would be.

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An alternate to the evaluated at compile that could work as well is a fixed tax per script. Work it just like primitieves, $10 to put a script on an object, and get $10 back when you remove it. And charge $1 each week in taxes for all scripts.

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If objects are charged taxes because they use resources then scripts should be too.

Looks like its just you and me on this Ama. I don't know what else to add. The explanations have been posted. I would like to hear what more people think about it. It really comes down to what the rest of us feel, and of course whether the Lindens are willing to do it.

Thank you for that explanation, Ama. That made more sense to me. Much clearer. I would have no problem paying an extra $10 to add a script to an object. The issue becomes when you add multiple scripts to an object and they all cost $10. But I can see the argument that greater functionality means greater cost. That argument is a sane one and one that I agree with for the most part.

I would definitely be against a per script charge.

I enjoy making small single purpose scripts instead of writing single monolithic ones.

writing multiple scripts deosn't put a strain on the server. If we taxed that way then it would be a tax on writing style not server usage or functionality.


I support a tax on scripting.

I would like to see it based on function calls. Certain functions cost money to call. The amount they cost can be based on server usage, functionality or both. The Cost can be computed at compile time.

I think it would be worth thinking about a threshold or minimal functionality aloud before charging.

Say there is a certain amount of damage you can apply with llSetDamage that is free. Anything over that limit starts toi cost money. (just an example).

i agree with the idea of a script tax based on resource usage per function call, with a maximum estimate computed at compile time.

sounds like it would be a headache to implement. gl LL !!

omg,

Someone wants more taxes? <shudders>.

Why put the burden of server resources on the particapants of SL while limiting their creative possiblities at the same time? Isn't creating our own world what SL is all about?

This is approaching the problem from the wrong side. The servers need to be brought up to the users demands. This is a game. It is supposed to be fun. Taxes are not fun.

Ama - didn't you also say that flying should not be allowed?
Geesh, no flying, more taxes....

fen-

Actually, if I understand correctly, each script runs inside its own virtual machine, so the server does have to allocate more memory (at least virtually) for your scripts if you have more of them. Along with the extra load on the scheduler, I would say each script -- even if it does nothing -- uses server resources, and by this scheme must be taxed.

Logging in and being in the world uses server resources, too. Let's make sure we're taxing L$1 per every n minutes of in-game time to make sure all server resources are being taxed appropriately. It might be more fair to make that a per-primitive per-minute viewing charge, since the server has more calculations to perform when there are more primitives in your vicinity. Let's also add a per-megabyte data transfer charge on using the server's network resources, including when other people play sounds in your area, and when large textures are in use on nearby objects -- you are, after all, consuming server resources.

We can probably bundle in sending chat messages with the data transfer tax, but maybe not since the server has to calculate who's within the appropriate chat radius. Maybe whispers should cost very little, and says a little more, and shouts a lot since there could be lots of avatars within range of those. Every object with a triggered listen handler will be taxed when triggered, of course. And IMs should be taxed separately, since they might have to be stored indefinitely. Avatar animations should also be taxed, since all that dancing has to be accounted for and transmitted to nearby viewers.

I started being facetious at some point in this post, but I'm not quite sure when.

Hey, feniks is right. Taxes are not fun. Yes, it's probably a good idea to charge for primitives and land, since these are distinctly limited resources: sims only have so many squares of land, and sims can only contain so many objects, after all. But SL is going to be charging subscriptions for service, and (assuming success) there should be enough money to pay all the Linden people for their great work, and to keep the servers running, and to add more and more powerful simulators when the need arises. I wouldn't worry about taxing for "server resources" when there are more important things to be doing in the world.

You're absolutely right Bob. I know that taxing based on server resources should not be taken to the extreme, and thats for all the reasons you just mentioned. If it came off as if thats what i meant then thats my mistake.

The whole reason i brought this up was because there is a possiblity for anyone to waste resources using a script and ruin the game for everyone else. A script can easily use more resources than objects.

Say I don't like a certain person. if i wanted to mess with them i could just buy a square of land on their sim, put a box on that land, and in that box put a script that will render the whole sim useless. In fact i know of someone who is working on something quite similar to this *ahem*(you know who you are)*ahem*.

Like you said a sim only has so many squares of land and can only contain so many objects. They can also only process a limited amount of information. All i want is a way to ensure that people don't overburden a server. I don't see any difference between taxing scripts and taxing a box.

I recently had to move out of not one but two sims because of people leaving their scripts on all the time when it wasn't even necessary. This waste of resources is ruining the game for me. And i know that if their wasting reflected back on them that they would either stop or find a less wasteful way of doing the same thing.

I don't care how fast of a server they use, they will always have a limited ability to process information. I'm not looking for a way to charge us for every bit that the server processes on our behalf. All i want is a way to ensure that a person cannot permanently lag the hell out of a server on purpose or by mistake and make me have to move out yet again.

Feniks:

About flying: I did argue against flying but have changed my mind. Mostly because at that time I was not aware of the scope to which Linden Labs plans to expand the world. That along with some other people's discussion has changed my mind. For the most part.


About tax on scripts: You whole post implies to me you didn't even read mine before you commented on it. If that is the case, then it is my fault for writing too long. If it is not the case, it is still my fault for not being clear. So here it is in bullet point form.

Summary: IF objects are taxed because they use system resources, IF lights are taxed extra because they use system resources, THEN scripts must be taxed because they use resources AND physics must be taxed extra because they use extra resources.

1. The tax system exists as a way to "fairly" divide up server resources
   
2. Money in SL IS resources.
   
3. It is for that reason that primitives are taxed. They use system resources.
   
4. It is also the reason lights are taxed extra, they use extra resources.
   
5. Scripted items use more resources than primitives but aren't taxed. This is fair?
   
6. For non scripters this means people who do script are using up your resources without being held accountable for what they do.
   
7. Physics costs way more server resources. And again, has no representation in the system designed to control resources.
   
8. IT DOES NOT LIMIT CREATIVITY ANY MORE THAN TAXES ON PRIMITIVES DO. People still build huge magnificent projects, even though buildings are taxed!!! The same will hold true for scripts!
   

Side comments: I run an arcade. The latest game I am creating currently weighs in at 13 scripts, the main one being 230+ lines of code including comments (it is well commented, but there is definatly over 100 lines of actual code). This game includes 4 states, and 4 event / action handlers in each state. This is 1 game. I currently own 7 other running, games and there is a total of 11 games in my arcade.

A tax on scripts will hit me, possibly fairly hard. I am not here saying "Hey! That person over there should be taxed more!". I'm saying "Hey! I can use up huge amounts of server resources without the controls in place for other server resource usage." And I don't think that is right.

IF the economy is there to divie up server resources, then scripts and physics need to be taxed.

The economy as a whole is broken.

People don't rate like they used to for good or for bad and for various reasons, but when they do rate, it's rarely for the reasons the rating system was intended.

Large groups have found ways to take advantage of the voting system by favoring their own members or grouping their booths for easy hits.

Although I don't entirely disagree with some of the basic concepts here I can't support building on a system that is already flawed. Our economy needs a stong foundation.

Another thing I wanted to comment on is the idea that taxes will stop greifers. I really have to disagree with this. If I hate "X" person enough to take the time to script and place a sim bomb I'm not going to give a rats behind about any taxes. If I'm a greifer and my goal in any game is to toy with others, Im going to do it regardless.

Now, Ive said a lot without bringing much to the table but it has been something I've been thinking about and dicussing with other players. We really need to come up with an overall economic plan that works rather than tacking stuff onto the existing broken model.

Ideas?

Ama,

Why do you use the word "must"?

It amazes me when users think they know what should be and demand, as the word must implies, the world according to their standards or judgments.

As for nonscripters, plenty of non scripters use scripts. So I see this tax as a burden pretty much across the board.
Now if there is a tax on scripts, I can foresee the nonscripter paying twice now. Once in the charge of the item or script (aren’t the savvy business scripters going to include this tax increase in the costs of their item?), and then again when the non scripter uses that item.

Ope has addressed extremely important issues, but to apply the solution across the board for those who do not manage scripts in the most efficient way is not right. Some measures do need to be put into place though.

Wasting server resources in one's opinion might not be wasting server resources in another's. Maybe the scripts Ama has running are worth the server resources by supplying the community with entertainment, while providing income for Ama. Maybe creating those giant spinny things over someone's house is the reason they love SL. Why tax that?

But if someone is being deliberately obnoxious by using a script or scripting a sim bomb of sorts, this should not be handled by a tax. These actions are not going to be stopped by a tax.

And I believe the taxes on primitives do limit creativity. So IN SAYING THAT IT DOES NOT LIMIT CREATIVITY ANYMORE, I see it as ADDING TO THE LIMIT. Even if that limit is a deduction of my funds. Less $ to do something creative....


fen-

I agree and disagree. :/ Although there is a quote by lindens somewhere on these boards that they are happy with the economic system, aside from a bit of number smudging. If you can get something going for a new economic system, I would be more than happy to bend my will towards that goal. I am not sure at this point though that it will be heard by receptive ears.

Which is why I, and others, a putting up ideas to make the system that exists better, as we see it.

Feniks, not gonna go in order heh but ....

I agree 100%.

Managing scripts efficiently should be the seen the same as building efficiently. If you can use a few less primitives and get an acceptable result then your work is cheaper. If you can use a few less lines of code to get an acceptable result then you save money.

I agree 100%. Suprised? Laws limit my freedom. I am not free to go and light my neighbors lawn on fire, heck that even limits my creativity . Now the reason for that? It incroaches too far into his rights. It's a mixing of metaphores, I know. But in SL money is the resources available, and the economic system as I understand it is designed to divide up the available resources. It does this so everyone gets their share, has their amount of creative freedom without hurting the creative freedom of others (by creating lag, taking all the land etc.).

So yes, all taxes are limiting freedom. But it is a freedom you give up so that the game is playable. So that all the land isn't taken by a small few, so all the sims aren't lagged and unplayable, so all the servers aren't full of someone elses spears'n'back'sync albums.



I use 'must' to try and show my conviction with which I believe what I am saying should be done. I know I'm not in control and that the lindens will do as they see best for the game. I just don't want to appear wishy washy or unsure in my belief.

And my argument can be summed up in two sentances: If primitives are taxed because they take up resources then scripts should be taxed because they take up resources. If lights are taxed extra because they take up extra resources, then physics should be charged extra because they take up extra resources.

That is the whole of my argument. If there is another reason that primitives and lights are taxed as they are, then I would like to know it. If they are taxed for a different reason, then it depends on that reason for whether or not scripts and physics should be taxed.


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(I do this instead of posting a second post)
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There was once an argument for a new economic system, the creator of which should step forward because I do not remember. In this suggested economic system the single $ resource is eliminated. Instead each person has a number of Land units, Primitive units, Scripting units, and maybe some more (upload units?).

Some may be supplemented on a regular basis, or given a bonus when new land appears. There would need to be a trading system in place. So if I want to do lots of scripts, I can trade someone else X number of land units, for Y script units. Etc.

i know that this won't stop griefing in general, but it could limit that type of griefing.

I agree that the ratings and voting system are not very effective at doing what they were intended to. i suggested a while ago that ratings should be averaged and not summated in order to rate people relative to eachother. But this is a little bit beside the point of the state of the economy as a whole.

Forgetting about the ratings and voting system for a moment, consider that the economy affects building and scripting very differently. building is very dependent on money. without money you cannot build anymore. scripts on the other hand can be used without losing a dime. money does not affect scripts. scripts in terms of money are free to create and free to use. so, is this fair? i say it's not. it costs me nothing to do what i want to do, and it does cost a builder. yet, both objects and scripts are taking from and reducing the same pool of resources. this is not being represented in the economy.

the economy seems to be unfair for many reasons. one thing i know about economics is that it involves the allocation/trading of limited and desired resources. in the case of objects, resources are limited and this is represented by the money system. scripts, which use the same resources as objects and thus are limited, are not represented by the money system. if we could represent this limit on resources, IMO it would create a more fair and robust economy.

I searched "economy" and found this from Hunter Linden in an announcement re: taxes.

Ok Ama,

Good points. I am just wondering if the lindens have figured somewhere into the formula of the economy the use of scripting resources that we do not know about.

Here's an idea, if a neighbors script is a big lag problem, how about a discussion? This might need some sort of measuremnt tool to base the discussion on. And a place to address this in a nice neighborly manner. A forum? Or a group of scripters that will offer advise to the n00b scripters to better write more efficent scripts?

fen-

So according to the quote Mis dug up, scripts are not considered a resource in the same vein as land and objects.

Which makes for a good point not to tax them as a resource.

This might my suggestion for a "this script is really lagging my sim, what can we do about it" forum or group an even more attractive idea???

I will have to reiterate that this would not be punitive in any way, that is not the point, it would be rather, a teaching, script nurturing, community orientated scenario.


fen-

i'm not surprised at the quote. it represents exactly the way that the economy is "working" right now. what i'm saying is that this doesn't work.

and having a group discussion, IMO, is not going to make much of a difference. because nobody is perfect, and some of us just don't care. i believe the only way to affect it is to enforce a limit.

I’m sorry, I don’t care if it’s fair or not, NO NEW TAXES !!

As I understand it, the economic system is land/member driven. The more members, the less money there is to go around, the more land, more money is added to the pool. In the last month, we have added about 1500 new members, which lowers the available pool of money, how much land has been added in this same time frame? If the Lindens are going to throw the doors open and let the world in, AND NOT ADD MORE LAND, we, as current users, are going to suffer.

I suggest a cap be put on the lower end of the money pool until such time as new sims go on line. In the last month, my stipend has gone down $4000!! I released a third of my land and broke even for one pay period. Now I’m loosing money again. So I release more land, time goes buy, more members come in, the stipend goes down, I start loosing money again.

So as I understand it, from what you guys are suggesting, I should be charged MORE tax??

I don’t think you can fix the current system by breaking it more.

I just have one random point to add to this discussion: lights do not tax server resources, they tax client resources. The server doesn't particularly care whether something is light, it just tells the client that it is so. Then the client handles the work of making the glow, the reflections, and so on.

So why are lights taxed and scripts not? Maybe the economy is not just about server resources.

I agree on the part that voting stations seem to be misused by large groups like WW2OL. They just push eachothers voting stations every day, regardles of what the voring station represents.
I can't think of a good solution to fix this right now, but I feel there is one so please think with me.

Tracey,

I seem to have failed to mention another point: If taxes for other resources are enabled, then the overall pool of money needs to be adjusted (upwards) to accomodate it.

There is no way I would support taxing of scripts and physics if the money pool is going to stay the same. That doesn't make sense.

Also a good point. I just don't see that it is accounted for.