Pay by value scripting.

REALLY ROUGH DRAFT

So i was thinking it might be cool to give scripts monetary values.

Example:

If a script has a llSetDamage(float damage) call then based on the value of damage a price is charged.

So the HIGHER the damage the MORE it cost to run the script.

This can work for all sorts of functions.
Basicly the MORE a function did the MORE it would cost.


However this means we would need a couple features:

Pre auditing of scripts so players can see how much they would cost to run and run time auditing to actually deduct the cost when functions are called.

discuss.

This type of thing is exactly what I'm pushing for. Using scripts should have a price. By giving weights(prices) to different functions a player can be charged for how much strain they put on a server. This would help cut down on lag. And like you said it could also be used to provide a balancing effect for weapons(an advantage i didn't realize before)

So I agree, tax scripts.

I agree a price for the SetDamage (but then we would also need a good way to change values of vars without changing the script)
I don't know about putting a price on server power... what if you're out of money then??? then we'll see SL world where half of the scripts are not working

A better idea might be to give people a standard amount of processing power for free, then if you want more you pay more....maybe same for (physics) objects

Also it could be possible to set a simple FPS limit on the server. For example if it runs under 100 FPS nothing can be build and no new scripts are executed or something like that.

Anyway I really would like to see some anti-lag rules, if the servers all get laggy then SL is doomed to fail

Anyone know how fast the servers are they use for one sim???
The good thing is that they keep building faster CPU's etc. so SL could upgrade their servers all the time

I think they shouldn't be too cheap... It should be a quality game with fast and lots of servers

if we were taxed based on server usage, then the stipend itself would be like giving away a standard amount of processing power.

The FPS limit, could be acheived(roughly) by limiting the amount of money in the system. This would involve, again, taxing for server usage, and adjusting how much is given back out to the community.

I wrote a long post on this yesterday but noone replied. I really think that taxing should be based much more closely to our use of the servers' resources.

Agreed, for exemple a hollow sphere with physics uses WAY more then a box (at least that's what I think)
So it should not only cost more taxes (because you have to pay them only onces a week, and your processing expensive objects will come public, but will not disappear)
but when you make or change them, it should cost more or less money.

for example
-----
make a sphere -> 20
set hollow on -> 40
set physics on -> x3
-----
60 x 3 = 180

so It will cost you 180.. turning off one of these function will recalculate the value and give you back what you should get back.

I think it's best to define the price of physics on the price that's already on the object, because I think that is how the processing power will work.

Hmm interesting...

I was thinking of taxing for functionality rather than server usage.


mainly becuase i was thinking in a game aspect and not a RL logistical or resource aspect. But I can see how that needs to be a concern.

Well I guess paying a price on the llSetDamage will be used for your idea Kurt, but the other idea's are just a way to reduce that lag... that COULD cause people to stay away from SL...

...but lag could be a reason ppl stay away from SL too.

I did mean that Ope, I read a post in the ww2ol forum and they already were saying that SL is severly lagged... that is not really an invitation to come watch.
Lag in SL is overal not so bad, but for people who play online shoot-em-up's know/think a lag is just horrible and a good reason to stay away.
So if Linden wants a lot of members they better not get the reputation of a laggy game. Lot's of people won't even come check it out then

oh my bad. Thought you meant having a price on scripts would. Well, i'm glad someone else sees it this way.

If SL were to charge for server usage, wouldn't teleporting be cheaper than flying over long distances? Flying involves crossing a lot of territory, and even with the rendering done on the client side, there's a lot of data to be downloaded from the server to display the landscape. Teleporting avoids all of that.

Thats a good point Jake. They should definitely leave server bandwidth out of the equation. Just having a longer view distance would cause this too.

The way I've thought of it, it shouldn't be a strict measure of server resources, that determines our taxes. This would leave us susceptible to charges that we wouldn't know about until the weeks end. Like if i leave some script running that i forget about and it costs me an arm and a leg at the end of the week. If the cost is known beforehand, and could be viewed in the account history window, we could see that we're wasting money/resources. Also, if there was a bug that caused my script to use an inordinate amount of resources this would also be unfair. Instead, IMO the script functions should be weighted/priced according to how much relative strain they put on a server.

For example, the llSetTimerEvent() function could be given a fairly heavy weight, which can also be scaled according to its actual input (the frequency of the timer event used). Like, if i input .001 into it, it should cost more than if i put 1.0

The followng probably shouldn't be read because the opinion expressed is in contradiction to those already stated by the members above.

I personally would hate to be charged money to execute and make scripts... In game right now *yeah I know I shouldn't call it a game* I'm poor as hell and my stripends are taxed enough as it is. And to have to pay to use a script really doesn't make me feel to motivated to make new items and scripts... Actually it makes me absoultly not want to make items and scripts. And the whole reason for coming to second life was all the hype about being able to create new things and ideas to help shape a world... And now if I have to pay to make a ball spin or bounce high (not that thats the limitation of my imagination) it really doesn't fill me with hope... Like I said right now I'm poor, and my way to make money is to script and make objects, but now I feel like I can't... I just don't see some thing positive in this. And then agian my view maybe very narrow, but man it would suck.

Now if you read this and don't hate me, give yourself a cookie.

If you read this and hate me, let the shooting down begin.

well i think that, in combination with the existing tax system (i.e. larger objects = higher tax, as well as further off the ground = higher tax), a *small* tax on script functionality, as well as other server-intensive things like physics, would be good to discourage people from making giant rotating flashing billboards in the sky that use sensor_repeats to attempt to hand out landmarks to everyone who passes through the sim. that's an exaggerated example of course, but you get my drift

i just hate large rotating signs in general, i think they detract from the landscape no matter where they are, unless maybe there was a sim set aside for businesses...

i don't hate ya, but i do hate lag

I'm going to have to agree with Aiosa. If I have to pay for my scripts, I'm going to write fewer scripts. Although that's the point entirely, to make people use fewer server resources, I know that's going to cut down on the enjoyability and the freedom of being in SL.

I hear you guys. And I agree I don't want to be taxed for the scripts that I run too. The point of it is jsut to discourage wasting of the servers. It doesn't have to make us broke to do that. The tax on objects and the hieght tax isn't enough to make us broke(usually i guess), but it's enough to discourage creating too much and building high in the air.

i don't think it's enough to discourage large signs and stuff high in the air... Jessie is proof of that

but anyways. my (second) life revolves around scripting. the entrance to my bunker alone uses 13 scripted objects (9 keys on the keypad, a code reset button, both doors, and the doormat), and then each of the 11 portholes currently on the bunker will require a minimum of four scripted objects (44 scripts in all). granted each of those scripts is small, serving a single limited function, but a tax might discourage me from going any further overboard with my scripts

Well, they don't necessarily need to tax on a script by script basis. They can just tax certain functions that deserve it.

For example if I turn physics on, that should cost a little something, because it's especially straining on a sim. The resources are supposed to cost money. As it stands, they don't.

And when I say discourage, that is exactly what I mean. It's not gonna stop anyone who really wants to do it. But if you know that you are losing a little money because of it then in general you might think twice.

For example, lets say it only costs me $10 to leave that random color script running all week. That won't stop me from doing so. But i may think to myself, "hey i should turn that off because i don't need it on right now and i'm wasting money". This is equivalent to saying, "hey i should turn that off because i don't need it on right now and i'm bogging down the sim"

the other side of the coin is, too many scripts bog down the server. imho, that also cuts down on the enjoyability and freedom of being in SL. and a slow server impedes everyone, whereas a script tax would only impede the people who want to write fancy, server-intensive scripts.

i actually kinda like ope's latest idea here about only taxing certain things, like setting physics enabled, and maybe also tax timer events that run more than once every n seconds, etc.

I had thought of that problem. It is actually two problems.

When players are making scripts when they run them SHOULD they be taxed? Should the R&D phase be taxed as well as the production phase?

How could the game sidtinguish between a scripter developing and scripting his scripts and a PLayer USING the scripts?

I don't have an answer for either at the moment.

IMO using server resources is using server resources any way you cut it. Whether a scripter is testing out his script or someone is using the final product, it takes resources and that should cost money.

This means that it will cost money just to develop a script. This is totally fine by me because it will emphasize making good efficient scripts, and again, not wasting resources. Only good enough scripters will make a return on their investment. The price of good scripts will likely rise, especially when script protections are in place.

Oh well, yet another way for the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer. We don't have enough of that in SL, oh no, not at all.

no sarcasm or cynicism here, no, not at all.

bob, ya just gotta be creative in finding ways to make money

i was in the poorhouse, frustrated at my lack of funds, finding myself unable to build anything really interesting... then i found that if i used my limited funds to build an interesting house, people would vote for it.

then i joined a planned community (shangri-la) and got my pagoda, with its own voting station. more votes, more money.

now i have a massive bunker in Jessie as well, with its own voting station. more votes, more money. i've also made some war accessories that i'm selling in the supply tent. yet more income.

it may take a while, but once inspiration strikes you, you'll find that the money you're given in the beginning is enough to get you started in the business of making more money, however you choose to do that... just sit tight and tinker around until then, and soon enough your tinkering will lead to inspiration

Harkening back to an earlier theme in this thread, as well as addressing some of the later ones, I need to speak my $0.02 here.

I've said this before in another forum and I'll say it again here. When we talk about taxing spheres more than taxing cubes, we are not only encouraging miserly complex object creation, we are also limiting or stifiling creativity as a whole. The same applies to scripts. What about the great scripts Tcoz wrote for his gambling machines, or some of the very utilitarian ones that Buhbuhcuh or Nada wrote?

Better question: If two scripts do the same thing, but one is written to be more readable and the other is written to be more concisce, why penalize the more-readable script writer/user by making that script cost more because it makes one extra call at the cost of being more readable and understandable?

Better question yet: If script A uses a call that is very taxing but only 10 people use that script, whereas script B uses no taxing calls but 50 people use it constantly, which script should "cost" more? A? B? Both? Who's to be the judge of that?

The more I think about it, the more my conclusion comes to one of "The economy and object and lighting taxes and making money and finding revenue streams are already hard enough in SL, why make them harder still?

To Phil's comment about how he turned into an arms and war merchant and now he's doing quite well with votes and sales, that's great for you Phil. But what about those who find the whole war/guns thing distasteful and do/will not create such items? Why should they have to sacrafice their values and desires in order to make a living in SL?

I realize that you are not advocating that in any way, but the point is well taken that there are at least some people in SL who don't agree with the "war" aspect of the world (which is their right) and they should be able to find their own ways of generating income, be it through simple or complex scripts, or building houses made entirely out of spheres. I do not believe that adding new tax schemes based on script call use or object type or server load (beyond what we LL is already doing) just serves to limit creativity, and does not balance the economy as some have suggested it would.

i just happened to make my money making war-related items because i harken from the FPS genre, so combat comes naturally to me

there are plenty of other ways to make money. clothing, furniture, housing, landscaping, entertainment, even custom avatar design.

speaking of entertainment, there's a great way to make more money: host events. whether it be something simple like "two truths and a lie", or a maze game, or a treasure hunt, or a costume contest, or non-war sports competitions, or whatnot, it will at least generate more money in the form of extra votes, if you host the event near your home (or move your voting booth to where you're hosting the event). also, i believe the lindens will pay event hosts $500 or something like that... go see the events forum for more details, a lot of this i'm pulling from my very fallible memory

oh, and one last way to make money: attend events, contests, and games. stuff like two truths and a lie, you get paid somewhere around $10-$50 for every correct guess. that's five more primitives you can rez, or images you can upload. and you can guess multiple times, so you could theoretically make nearly $500 in a single game. there are also other games and contests with payoffs, you just have to look around