Privacy, por favor

Please give us the ability to specify that we don't want to be tracked by people with our cards (either individually or globally), This whole lojack system gets a bit old when every time you try to be alone with someone, some random person shows up because they tracked you. It is especially amusing when they make it seem like a coincidence. Please give us better privacy controls across the board in SL.

Isn' t that the only thing the cards are useful for anyway? Why not just delete them all?

I think cards are very useful... I like knowing who is online. I tend to think that people who arent on my cards anymore (because they deleted all of theirs) arent even playing very actively... which is far from the truth.

I like seeing who is online or offline at a glance, like Eggy said when I don't have someone's card it feels like they are never on. I don't think it is asking too much though to allow us to opt out of being tracked, which is kind of a creepy feature. TSO has a similar feature, but you can opt out of it at any time.

OK question withdrawn.

Maybe it really was an accident that they bought the rocket pack and flew out 32000m over the ocean and then up 243,921m onto your fluffy black s&m cloud.

I think you're just being paranoid.

We've been here a number of times before, and for some reason a lot of people vehemenently disagree with the people that want this ability having it (presumably pervy voyeur types that WANT to track you when you least want to be found). But for what it's worth, and though I remain convinced we will never get this ability, I wholeheartedly agree and support this suggestion.

There is no privacy in a MUSH, there never has been and there never will be. If you could switch on some 'privacy' feature, people would start to think it would actually do what it says. Which it can't, and won't, thus lulling them in a false sense of security. Imagine how mad you'd be if you switched on privacy in your floating, black s&m cloud, and still someone would show up. It may be better if everybody would just accept there is no such thing instead of learning the hard way.


That's the theory, of course. I'd still support such a feature, it's just that I think the psychological implications of a non-functional privacy switch could be disasterous.

(edit to clarify: I have some experience with MUDs and I previously had to resolve conflicts between players and/or staff arising from this false sense of security.)

Cray,

There are several MU*s where you can set yourself "dark" so that no one can tell where you are or "hidden" so that no one can tell you are online. You can also set rooms non-teleportable or lock doors.

I really would like to see this feature added. There are times when I just want to log in quickly to get something done, and I don't feel like conversation. I honestly don't know why this feature even exists, if you want to join someone's location, why not IM them and ask for a teleport?

See, you're already a victim. What makes you think an admin can't override that?

For instance, I'm on this MUD. We have multiple levels, and I can set myself invisible to anyone below my level. Still, there are programmers with a lower level than mine who have access to the code that controls this behavior and could just change it. Players can't teleport of course, but any programmer can.

We actually had a case a few years ago where a couple chose to tend to certain business of theirs in a house that was open to the public, on the assumption nobody were likely to show up because it wasn't a popular place. Incidentally, a programmer set himself to invisible and teleported into the room and he was only found out because he made a mistake.

It's even more trivial in Second Life because you can turn off display of the walls around someone you're spying on via the debug menu, or move the camera inside a structure. You can also make yourself invisible.

This is just stating the obvious. My reasoning is that if there's a way this obvious, there must be other means of achieving the same which are less obvious or at least it isn't possible to know if there are any.



I still don't think the original suggestion is a bad idea in itself, but it should not be confused with a feature that offers privacy.

The difference is between a bad admin that would do something like that and some random person dropping in on you because you happened to say yes to their calling card offer. I'm fully aware that a Linden could drop in on me at any time, and probably hear any conversation I happen to have if they so choose. But, I'd like to have the option to keep random people from knowing my location whenever they please, and the option to log on hidden. Maybe something like Yahoo messenger has where you can log on invisible when you don't want to be bothered.

And your house/apartment can be got into even if you lock the door, does that mean you shouldn't try?

Some privacy is better than none.

And nobody is stupid enough to think the sys admins couldn't break through it. Hell, I don't even assume my IMs are private from lindens (I don' t know one way or another if they are or not). Doesn't mean I don't bother to us IMs if I dont want someone to hear what I'm saying.

Yes, privacy is one thing SL is severly lacking.

SL is not a MUD.

Why should I be limited and not have any options of real privacy? Busy and Away don't really do much use. Why *must* I always be open and social to interaction with anyone at any time? Can't I be anti-social and a hermet in SL?

The arguement "there is no privacy in SL", is a statement of the current situation, just because there is none now, why shouldn't there be ever?

The arguement "away and busy should be enough, you should know better and hide better", is not valid, why should I inconvience myself because of someone else?

The arguement "it enables stalkers themselves with greater powers", isn't valid, true it does give them more options, but the stalkee can use the same powers to be harder to track also. Anyone who would use privacy features to track down others obviously has issues and should be abuse reported.

If someone calls my house, I can not answer it, they most likely do not know if I am home or not, there is no way they can track me other than sitting outside my house and watching for my car, but even then they can't be sure if I'm there or not.

In SL, if someone IM's you and you don't answer, and they have your card, they can track you down, see exactly where you are, and even go anywhere you are. Why not cancel their card? Even if you did, more than likely they could find you if they really want to, I know where Cristiano likes to hang out, I can easily check those places if he's online but not answering me.

If you oppose privacy features, why? Any bad they would bring is outweighed by the benefits they provide.

Do you disagree with people using the Invisible features on Instant Messengers? Do you think Caller ID should be baned because it allows people to decide who they wish to be "invisible" to?

Stalking in SL does happen.

Suggestions:

- Invisible Mode, with the following options, "Invisible To Everyone", "Invisible To These People" (calling card folder option), "Invisible to everyone BUT these people"calling card folder option), "Invisible to This Person" (calling card, maybe even profile option), "Invisible To Everyone But This Person" (calling card, maybe even profile option). Yahoo! Messenger does the whole Invisible thing the best way I have ever seen, I love the options it provides and use them everyday, LL should definitly look at implementing what Yahoo has. Being invisible to someone would make you appear offline and untrackable, maybe even your green dot off the map, however if someone is standing infront of you, they can see you, anyone you are invisible to that sends you an IM recieves the "this user is offline" message but you do recieve it in real time, it does not go to your email, or maybe an option to have it do this.

good feedback all

One thing I don't like about yahell (I'm not sure if its fixed on the newest version) is that even if u log on invisible, the people who have you on their buddy list can see when you log on and off. I really don't like that "feature"!

Oz has some great suggestions there. I would like to be able to filter out who I am visible to and not visible to. Online status aside, I think this feature should also be applied to the AVATAR'S visibility in world, including open chat radius as well.

My 2 cents,

Arti

I'm not opposed to the presence of privacy-like features at all, but it should be made clear that they're more like voluntary. I've had to deal with annoyed users who thought their privacy was invaded often enough. Also, I'm a bit biased due to some particularily bad memories of how they reacted. (I believe the correct expression is 'drama'.)

And, your arguments are flawed.

Calling Cards are more like cellphones, and as long as your cellphone is switched on, you *are* being tracked.

I've had arguments over this same topic due to my third party icq client ignoring the invisible state several years ago, and also over a similar issue regarding ip addresses back when icq would default to direct connections.

You should inconvenience yourself to hide from third parties because that way, you won't take it for granted.



I'm all for some restrictions in this area. The part I don't like is where it's suggested they're actually guaranteed to work. My views are based on having *seen* how creative certain types of morons get if it comes to circumventing these restrictions.

A-men! I'd like to be able to set my preferences, prior to log-in, to "hidden" or "privacy mode" so I can log in with stealth, do some texturing/building/clothing or whatever, and then un-hide when ready to face the world. I'd like this to apply to IMs too -- you would see the incoming IM, but it would automatically send the initiator a "user is unavailable" type response (like the current "user offline" auto-responder).

Further, I think LL needs to fix the sit and other hacks that allow avatars to bypass a locked door.

And while I'm at it...I'd like stealth mode to mute my conversations so that only ppl in whisper range have any chance of hearing me.

BTW, what if any good is "Busy" mode? It's never done much for me along these lines.

I agree with the "Invisible mode" suggestion.

I'd also like a "silent room" prim, so that people outside a room don't get text or sounds from the inside, if that's doable.

Omega, you can set land you own to act as a kind of sound-proof room, no one can hear sounds coming from your land and you can not hear any outside noises, however this feature does not carrey over to text, someone right next to your land can still see your text but not hear your typing noise.

The option is under the About Land - Options I believe.

But yes I do agree, soundproof and textproof prims as well as unability to sit trick through walls would be very cool.

There are times when you don't want the whole land soundproof, just a room. Hotels and the like.

I think a "do not disturb" mode would be quite enough.

I do not agree with that privacy mode. I like how things are settled now. If you do not want to get tracked do not exchange calling card.

Also having invisible and untrackable flags could help ppl spy you without being caught. I think is important to detect physycal presence of soomebody near you.

I agree Omega, that would be nice.

The thing about people using invisible mode to spy on you... I could make a invisible prim hunt you down and send your conversations to my email, and you would most likely never know, it is however against the rules to do this and hardly anybody has ever done this. With invisible mode, the avatar would still be visible if directly infront of you or around you. Perhaps have it so that your green dot appears on the mini-map, but not on the world-map. This would solve most issues.

I think you've missed the point.

(1) We have a 'Do Not Disturb' mode. It's called 'Busy'. It is worse than useless in its implementation. All it does is stops you hearing people in chat. It doesnt stop them hunting you down in your lab 700m up and then bumping you around while you're working because you're ignoring them.

(2) Funny how anyone who is opposed to the idea of privacy always comes up with the same non-argument 'don't exchange calling cards'. For the most part, I don't. But I DO have friends that I want to be notified when they are online, instead of having to delve into find every five minutes and searching for each one of them, which is the alternative if we all follow this well thought out plan of not exchanging cards.

That is not to say that there are not times when I don't want these friends or anyone else to bother me.

(3) Like pretty much any feature or function is Second Life, yes, it could be used for griefing. But no one suggested that your avatar should be physically invisible to people near you. Just that you aren't available on the minimap for those sad individuals that absolutely MUST find you because they can see your green dot.

Don't think I'm having a go at you personally... because I'm not. But you've just made the same response that has been made time and time again every time the issue comes up - and I really can't understand the argument against it for the reasons stated above.

If you don't want to use it - don't. But let those of us who want it, have it! I'm still gonna hide from you anyway... I'll just be all the more pissed off and think less of you when you come find me in my invisibility skybox 700m up. If you bump into me accidently while I'm in 'no tracking' mode, well, then so be it.

Just like I don't understand people who say we shouldnt have a 'transfer but no resale' option for free gift items. If you're not gonna use it, fine.. but why restrict my ability to do it?

Rant over. Now you can all go back to making the same points about the same suggestion thats never gonna get implemented anyway.

I read all the post in this thread and felt like expressing my opinion.
I did not understood this was so important to you or I'd probably not have wrote anything.

Sorry to bothered.

Omega: About someone able to track anyway i know you're not safe anyway, but if spying you is more difficult less ppl will do it. But I do understand now that invisible mode is not invisible in world.

Please guys be aware of the fact as SL it is expanding more and more ppl, more or less skilled, will come to it. They deserve the same respect as ppl who is online from a year and eat sliced bread and scripts at the morning.

As is your right. And I have a right to express my opinion on yours.



Why? You're going to avoid any important topic in case someone disagrees with your viewpoint? And what did I say to you before? I said, and I quote 'Don't think I'm having a go at you personally... because I'm not. But you've just made the same response that has been made time and time again every time the issue comes up'.

As it happens, this is THE single most important topic to me personally in SL, and is the one that is likely to drive me out of SL. So yes, I have a vested interest and a passion about the outcome.

If people weren't so moronic that they dont understand the concept of busy/do not disturb, or what it means to be in an invisible lab 700m up in the air, then it is my opinion we need to have tools to enable that privacy said morons will not allow. So why are people so opposed to me having my privacy? Am I somehow inconveniencing the rest of the residents by wanting that for myself?



Sorry to have upset you so. You are gonna have to be a lot more thick skinned than that to join in these forums. lol



Yup. But the problem with people both old and new is that they seem to either have very short memories or think that it's above them to do a little research before they speak.

It takes no skill, experience or longevity to look through the forums at this issue and see that this has all been said and done before - and thats what frustrates me most ... NOTHING new is ever achieved. Someone says 'we need this' AGAIN and everyone posts the same for and against arguments AGAIN. The same suggestions come up AGAIN. And nothing actually happens AGAIN.

So I guess it should be me who doesnt bother to post, and just let everyone else waste their time regurgitating the same old same old.

And I guess that the only solution to having a bit of privacy every now and then is to close off my sim to the rest of the world instead of having dedicated it to public use. Lucky I can afford to do that if I wish. So sorry for everyone else who might want a bit of peace and quiet

I am not upset, just did a reply but it's ok. So please take it easy.

As for ppl opposed to privacy seems like most of ppl agree with you, so you shouldn't worry.

As for the 'AGAINs', well, repeatedly posted subjects are a need for developers to have perception of what users do think and how many of them are. Also I read forums, even some old posts, and it seems to me, even if I am new, that most requested features are there and more are on the way.

Please, let's not start a flame war here. I have nothing against nobody and I am not upset at all, really. Just exchanging opinions. If you need to talk to me you can find me on SL, I will be glad to exchange some talk with you. (and after all privacy now is not supported , so you should find me easily )

As for the private sim...well...if you want Total privacy seems the only way right now.

take care.