Do something about IP

Just want to say that I find the whole in-game IP thing frustrating. I will quit soon most likely and this will be one of the three main reasons.

I think we should ditch L$. People who create stuff do it because they enjoy it. They give their stuff to people because they enjoy seeing people use their stuff.

Perhaps too radical? Who knows. The game has attracted, and retained, a certain group of people and this is the right game for them. The world will take the things that worked from the game, the incredible dynamic world, and move on.

ZHugh

I endorse this product and/or service.

This sounds an aweful lot like communisim, which I hate to say. It's good in theory of course, but it's not the way humans work. Some humans like profit. Not all humans. Not even neccasaraly most. But the way a place without currency works, if there's only a small group, it can't work.

Communisim is like spandex: good in theory, but when real people start using it, it gets ugly.

I think my original post in this thread sortof skirted round the issue about why I left.

I have poured a lot of time into the game. I saw the posts of people demanding more content and then leaving, and I thought, well the game does need content, but rather than complaining what I can do is contribute.

I've been wrestling with my conscience since Friday about whether to stay or not. I knew I was going to leave the moment I re-read the Terms of Service that evening.

I didn't want to leave, I would like to contribute, but the Terms of Service make it quite clear that on the one hand all code created in-game belongs ultimately to the Lindens and on the other hand that we are not Linden employees and not remunerated.

I would like to create a SourceForge GPL'd project to run an MMORPG over SL. The way the Terms of Service are written currently prevents that from being possible.

I have no problem signing away my IP rights; I do that regularly every time I sign a job contract. But the contract with LindenLabs is not a job contract, it is simply the rights to play a game.

From the Terms of Service:

You're not a Linden employee: "You acknowledge that your participation in the Service does not make you a Linden employee and that you do not expect to be compensated for such participation."

You can't use any of the code you create for SL for other projects: "You acknowledge that you do not have the right to create, publish, distribute, create derivative works from or use any software programs, utilities, applications, emulators or tools derived from or created for the Service, except that you may use the software to the extent expressly permitted by this Agreement."

All your base are belong to us: "Participants can create Content on Linden's servers in various forms. Unless specified otherwise in your transmission, by submitting your Content to any area, you automatically grant (or you warrant that the owner of such Content has expressly granted) to Linden the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such Content worldwide and incorporate it in other works in any form, media or technology now known or later developed."

The in-game IP wrestling is silly because every single letter of code you write belongs to LindenLabs.

I would come back/stay if one of two things became the case:

- we can treat SL as a runtime; LSL code becomes eligible for inclusion in a GPL; the real-world IP for LSL code remains with the players; we have the rights to use LSL code on other platforms; or

- the gameplay content becomes sufficient and rewarding

In other words, either the terms of service will change in order to enable me to contribute code which I own, or I will wait for LindenLabs to create the code that they own.

After a few days of asking around and wrestling with myself, I'm outta here.

ZHugh

Thats unenforceable lawyerspeak bullshit. Every ToS has it and you shouldnt pay any attention to legalese in general, let alone leave a game because of something that is omnipresent.
That's just a defensive clause in case you want to sue them for infringement.

Hate to say it but every TOS is like that. You might want to re-read the EULA that comes with the latest Windows service packs. Sorry Linden Labs, it appears Microsoft already owns everything I create on this machine, and since they have more money, you're SOL.

Of course most companies claim these clauses are for defensive purposes but when times are hard and the choice is to either fold the company or act on the abusive EULA/TOS, then we'll see how defensive some of the EULAs are.

The only silver lining is that these click-wrap agreements haven't been adequately tested in court. Even though you've signed your soul away in these contracts they may not mean a damn thing. If nothing else it seems that companies are unwilling to litigate on the basis of a draconian EULA. Until they start to, we all have to assume the "w3 P0wz j00" clauses are defensive... otherwise we'd have no software to use.

sorry that you're leaving ZHugh!
I met you a couple times in game and I will be very sorry that you are leaving.

But I do understand/agree with what you are saying.

I don't think you should pay too much attention to the TOS. The fun of SecondLife is for me creating projects that other people enjoy. Who cares if it 'officially' not mine and Linden are allowed to delete and/or copy it.
They won't do that anyway, they are nice people and if you have a good project you can always ask Linden for financial support (ofcourse not just any project, it must be valuable to the enjoyment of the game in Linden's eyes)

SL is in some cases not much diffrent from real life; if you have good idea's to create something you do need money. You can either start small and build on by the money you make from it, or you can ask for linden support.
Consider it a loan from a bank, execpt you don't have to pay it back. You DO have to convince them your project will work and add value to SL, just like you need to convince a bank in normal life that your loan will be used for good things (in real life meaning that you will earn enough money to pay back with interest)
That's not a bad system, you have to use both your designing/scripting skills AND you social skills to get a bigger project started. If you don't have enough of one of these skills, find somebody who does (Hello Pirate and cooperate.

Linden Lab is currently in the process of reviewing our TOS, so this thread is quite serendipitous. We understand that there are concerns and stresses between creating interesting, innovative content and any TOS. However, having read through about 30 different EULAs and TOSs over the last week, I can say that our TOS is already more liberal than most and that we are looking at any improvements that we can make.

So, if you could wait about a week for us to complete the current internal review, I think that you will be pleased with the results.

Up Next: A public flogging of anyone who accuses Linden of being un-responsive to the player base.

Will the flogging include a free abduction by an alien ship? If so then sign me up!

Judging from past experience that is likely.

Woot!

Linden is un-responsive to the player base!

Well I hope ZHugh gets the word that it's under review, somehow...

ZHugh why not start an open source movement inside SL? Partner up with the folks who run SL University... An open source movement would certainly be popular and it would enable more ideas to come to life.

The TOS say that to protect us from evil do-ers. If someone writes an evil script, Lindens need to be able to inspect it, so they have to claim ownership.

Jack: Seriously, they don't mean it. It's to make sure there are no legal mix-me-ups.

Oh, and for you Eggy:

/flog

It's to also cover LL's butt.

Say someone writes up a huge/awsome/ totally cool script/or batch of scripts. Then they make a bundled software off of that idea. Then they go copyright it and sell it.

Than after all that they want LL to remove the possability of that code from their servers, but to be an ars they sue them to get it done, as this person copyrighted their "new" software.

I can see LL having this as a defensive clause, but as its written it isn't clear enough that it is defensive in nature.

Ok, if there's a new Eula coming out that allows players to protect their real-world IP, then that would rock! Looking forward to that!

As a pseudo-random aside, I was thinking about how one would make an ideal Eula for Second-Life without causing unnecessary litigation exposure. One Eula which looks pretty good, is very simple, and has stood the test of time could be the following:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/geoterms.html

"7. CONTENT SUBMITTED TO YAHOO GEOCITIES
Yahoo does not claim ownership of the Content you place on your Yahoo GeoCities Site. By submitting Content to Yahoo for inclusion on your Yahoo GeoCities Site, you grant Yahoo the world-wide, royalty-free, and non-exclusive license to reproduce, modify, adapt and publish the Content solely for the purpose of displaying, distributing and promoting your Yahoo GeoCities Site on Yahoo's Internet properties. This license exists only for as long as you continue to be a Yahoo GeoCities homesteader and shall be terminated at the time your Yahoo GeoCities Site is terminated.

"You acknowledge that Yahoo does not pre-screen Content, but that Yahoo and its designees shall have the right (but not the obligation) in their sole discretion to refuse or remove any Content that is available via the Service. Without limiting the foregoing, Yahoo and its designees shall have the right to remove any Content that violates the TOS or is otherwise objectionable. You agree that you must evaluate, and bear all risks associated with, the use of any Content, including any reliance on the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of such Content.

"8. INDEMNITY
You agree to indemnify and hold Yahoo, and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, co-branders or other partners, and employees, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys' fees, made by any third party due to or arising out of your Content, your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the TOS, or your violation of any rights of another."

Simple, concise and a posteriorae effective.

ZHugh

P.S. Took advantage of my time-out to read Snowcrash.

With one change... When you terminate with Geocities, all of your content is removed from their servers, giving their possession a limited term and giving you the option of termination at any time.

With second life, if you make a script and sell or give it away, it can persist in the world permanently, even if you terminate your account. That requirement may mean LL needs to have slightly tougher wording to protect themselves from just such a situation that Charlie mentioned.

But... It's time to just wait and see what LL comes up with when they re-write their EULA, if this sort of thing matters to you.

I TOTALLY swear, the first time I read that just now I thought it said "GHETTOCITIES"....froidian slip of some kind?

OMG Gaorld I did the exact same thing!

Anywho, you need to remember that the content in Geocities isn't bound by a virtual economy/system of trade like it is in SL...

Frankly I'm not sure what anyone could possibly build/paint/script/upload to SL that would need IP law protection anyway. I'm pretty anal about my intellectual property, but if I build something in SL it exists only in SL and has no use outside of SL. If I upload some original art of mine, a 512x512 tga of it would never hold up in court when I produce the original high resolution files. No one could steal the uploaded texture and claim ownership and hope to get away with it unless it goes undiscovered. It's too low a resolution to be useful for anything other than display on a computer monitor. And if LL wants to use something I made in SL to promote the game, I'd be flattered. It couldn't possibly have an economic impact on me personally. What am I missing here?

One possibility comes to mind: prose. If you write something original -- an article, essay, poem, or short story -- and upload it into SL, does it become Linden property?

Good point James. I didn't think of text.