Remove Delete Ability

I'm gonna side with 'remove it'

I bought a boat from Jake a few weeks ago. When the new sims came up in the north, I was driving it around the waterways when I crashed on a sim border. I was near old, habited land when this happens.

Since it's never returned to me, even in lost and found, I can only assume someone found it on their land and deleted it. Meaning I'm out the money I payed for the boat, but have no boat to show for it.

Sweet, I get to be the mean old lady.

Seriously though, it's just a tool, one of many. It's not the first thing I would ever reach for if someone leaves crap all over my land. I can tell the difference between someone's vehicle and their trash, thankyouverymuch. For what it's worth, I return things the first time, return with an IM the second time, and if they still insist on leaving their trash on my land it would be deletion and maybe more, depends on what's going on. It's never gotten past the first step so far.

You asked for a reason, I gave you one. The only excuse I can think of is a no-copy vehicle, as they can't be duplicated without coughing up cash again. Everything else, if it's so important, you should be saving copies of so you don't have to go digging in your trash for it.

There's the problem with that statement. Deleteing any object puts the object in the deleters trash. (At least last time I checked). That's the main reason I think deletion is so cruel and unusual.

Heck, how can you tell if this super ugly pile of prims that happened to accidentally be on your land isnt my next uber-cool-script-thingy? (I cant build aestheticly pleasing stuff to save my life) I might have crashed while testing it, I might have even turned my back for a second. And if you delete it, there is no way of recovering it, because the instant you delete it, it changes owner, from me to you, and if the scripts that I spent all day on didnt have permissions set on them, then I'm out a day's work.

No one should have the right to simply pluck a person's work into their inventory, even if its on their land, no matter how ugly or grief-like it is.

The delete key is the easiest place to go to to remove a person's object from your property. I am suprised that LL hasnt shifted focus more to returning then deleting.
==Chris

It doesn't go to the owner's trash anymore? Well damn, it should do that. I'm pretty certain that's how I remember it working. I guess that assumption sure caused some confusion, my mistake. But Delete is still just a tool, one of many, not the only one, as some people seem to think I'm saying.

I'm still wondering though why everyone only has one copy of their stuff, and seems to do all their work on other people's land. Personally I've found it hard to not have a million copies of something I'm working on, since the default behavior out of inventory makes a copy.

A) How can you tell it's crap? It might -look- that way to you, but they might just be a really bad builder (as some people are really bad spellers or whatnot), or it might be a plywood cube. Again I ask... Who are you to decide what is trash and what is not? Return solves the problem -even better- than delete. So why give any person the option to delete an object?

B) It might not be the first thing you reach for, but it certainly tends to be mine, since I -do- build crap, and generally can't tell the difference between the crap that I make, and the crap that others make. In fact, I may have mistakenly deleted an SA Goons' plywood cube last night (I returned two other objects after realizing that -all- those cubes weren't mine).

C) It may not be the first thing you reach for, but others certainly do. And it shouldn't be available to them, simply to protect the property rights of others.

D) If you find someone's wallet in your yard IRL, are you going to toss it into your garbage disposal "because it was on your land"?



Because most often, the idea for a script strikes me at odd times, or I see something in world I want one of my scripts to try and interact with, and rather than taking the two-three minutes to fly to Cordova, five minutes to find some empty space, fifteen minutes to try to recreate the conditions (I suck at building), and then FINALLY get around to scripting, I just do it right there.

And the only effective way to script is with the script in a prim. Which means you don't get a copy of that script until you get a copy of that prim, or drag the script into your inventory. And if something goes wrong.... poof, prim is gone. Next person to run across it should return it, if they're polite, but most people don't know better. (Most people being non-forum people, who probably don't even know there's a Return function.)

Besides, most of this is not about 'work' we're doing on someone else's land. It's about accidents happening. Accidental deletes on co-op land. Random crashes flinging objects somewhere else. That right there should be reason enough.

(RETURN) Give it back to them and TELL them.

(DELETE) shove it in their trash can and DON'T tell them.

Not that it matters that much but I'd rather put
dirty paper plates and like items into the trash
rather than lost+found. Though I suppose if my houseguests leave that much of a mess, maybe they do deserve rotting food trash in their inventory and a nagging reminder that they forgot to clean up after themselves. =)

What if it's there by accident? Answer my question. What gives you the right to destroy my IP? What is the overriding interest we are serving by allowing you to erase ten minutes, or an hour, or even longer, of my development time, rather than returning it?

Because it's on my land. If you choose to build on my land, you choose to accept what I decide to do to your objects. If you don't want them deleted, don't put them on my land. Yes, even if it's a tragic mistake.

How am I putting it on your land if it's a mistake?

Answer the question. What gives you the right to destroy my IP? Why is that better than returning it?

The right to decide what I do on my land supercedes your right to decide what to do on my land. That extends to building, whacking me with push scripts and putting up porn billboards.

Further, what if it's not your IP? What if it's mine and you weren't supposed to have it?

For every unlikely scenario in which Delete ruins your fun, I can come up with one where it's necessary.

Seriously, how often has this come up? Have you ever had your sole copy of an object deleted from someone else's land because it went there by mistake? Has anyone? Is the complaint here because people who want to build on others' land get mad when the landowners delete their stuff?

If you want to keep your objects, take a copy of them. Don't try to limit what I can and cannot do on my land because you can't be bothered to build on your own plot.

Now, that said, I've never deleted someone's object on my land. I've always returned them. Why? Because I had no reason to delete them. If I'd had a reason, I would have deleted them. Don't petition to take away everyone's ability to use the tools provided because some people may or may not be capable of misusing them.

Yes, I have. Twice now. Vehicals, both times. Both times, because I crashed and the vehical kept going. One time, the deleter actually paged me to tell me as much.

But there is no reason for that 'tool'. None. At. All.

umm, like it's so damn difficult to 'Return' the objects? I know, that pie menu is a tough one. Hey Lindens, make it return only please, some people don't get it and would rather destroy my stuff instead of kindly returning my lost satelite, plane, car, arrows, wings, lost attachments, and all the other things I have left laying around the world. If you want to return it and bitch me out, fine. Please return objects to their horrible owners who lost stuff that ended up on other people's land.

Jeez, I'm soooo sorry.

I have. I was testing the latest version of my lunar rover -- I'd just tweaked the behavior, and was driving around to see how it worked -- and I got booted off the vehicle when it entered a full sim. In the two minutes it took to relog to get my controls back, the vehicle had vanished. Since it wasn't in my inventory, I assume someone deleted it.

Explain to me why you have a right to delete my hard work rather than returning it. Do not use circular reasoning, such as land ownership. You don't get to put porn billboards on your own land and call passersby n***er in a PG sim, so obviously you don't have absolute rights to do whatever you want. I have this idea that you are one of those people who relishes control over others for the sole purpose of abusing it. Please prove me wrong.

Then you use the abuse reporting tool. But, seriously (quoting you now) how often has this come up?

How's that unlikely? I lose airplanes all the time 'cause something gets fritzed when one sim hands me off to another.

Lots of people have transfer/no copy vehicles. It's NOT THEIR FAULT that LL's sim handoff code messes up sometimes. I'D LOVE for you to justify why it's of overriding interest to destroy someone else's property instead of returning it.

Not once have I even brought up building. I have CONSISTENTLY mentioned vehicles getting lost. WHY DON'T YOU ANSWER THAT INSTEAD OF TRYING TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT?

AGAIN. Why should you have a right to destroy someone else's property when it's just as easy to return it?

Enjoy the silence...

I hardly think that saying "it's on my land" is changing or evading the subject. If you don't want to take the risk that something of yours might be deleted, don't put it on my land. No, not even if it was a mistake.

And no, Angel, it's not difficult to return the objects. That's why I've made the concious decision to return them every time it's happened.

And what gives me the right to delete your stuff on my land? The same thing that gives you the right to delete MY stuff on YOUR land: it's YOUR LAND.

Aside from people flying around in no-copy vehicles, I have little sympathy for people with deleted objects. However, I have no argument for the right to destroy others' objects rather than returning them.

The argument I do have is that the advantage deleting currently has is that it's silent (like other's have mentioned). It doesn't announce to GreiferB that it's time to put the "U SUCK" prims back out.

I don't delete much. I DO delete empty boxes as a consideration for the owners' lost & found, not out of spite, and objects that I think will invite the owner to come hassle me some more (like a hundred bullets or so whose brethren were used to kill me repeatedly).

A compromise, like Jopsy put forward, would be to silently return the object. I don't really care where in the owner's inventory it goes though as long as it gets discretely off my prim count.

Your argument makes no sense. It has been stated multiple times that we don't want the delete option because of things we lost, left, or misplaced. Objects built to bother you should be reported to a Linden and then returned. There is no reason to delete anything you don't own, return basically serves you the same way. Delete serves the person who lost whatever item an injustice that is most likely not deserved.

You claim this is MY land and YOUR land to control how we choose. Thats a joke! We don't own anything here, regardless of what ad campaign you need to believe in today. We are neighbors in an experimental world where ownership of "player" created content is still not proven. That being said, let's say I do own my prims, and you do own your land. What gives you the right to DESTROY MY prims? MY PRIMS!

I sure hope there is never an earthquake and YOUR land doesnt end up on MY land, because I may have to delete it. For that matter, why can't I delete YOU if YOU come to MY land?

bleh - The delete option has to go Lindens.

Haha, what do you mean by that?

Look, my position is that if you don't have a backup, it's your own fault. If you buy a vehicle that's no-copy, you're getting ripped off.

No-modify/no-transfer works just as well as no-copy, and lets users back up their vehicles for when sim transfers break down and for when vehicles coast out of control. That's why it was added. There's no reason to sell a vehicle as no-copy. None. ("But it's a demo model or for a game and...etc!" No, you can do DRM in LSL. You don't need the SL permissions for that.)

If you lost the only copy of a vehicle you made and didn't back up, or one you bought, knowing it was no-copy, I don't have any sympathy for you.

You are made of Prims. I assume you think you own those prims as well. Well, if your prims are on my land, I should be able to delete them according to you. Tough cookies if there is not another copy of you in world.

I still say it's BS. I don't see why you should be able to delete other peoples' stuff. Even if it's a griefer's stuff. Think about this. Why should I have to forfeit my hard work in order to help you against a griefer who's going to be toast in a few days anyway?

I have an airplane I bought from someone else back in the day. It's transfer/no copy. Cubey used to sell ALL his craft with those permissions and there are loads of such vehicles out there.

My favorite thing you've said is this...
I hardly think that saying "it's on my land" is changing or evading the subject. If you don't want to take the risk that something of yours might be deleted, don't put it on my land. No, not even if it was a mistake.

Yeah right!!! You DID change the subject. You CONSISTENTLY talk about people "building" on your land. That involves someone deliberately coming over and rezzing stuff on your parcel. A deliberate act. This is WAAAAAY different from someone losing an object and having it wind up over your parcel.

'Sides... you wanna tell me you never made a mistake in your entire life?

That's -you-. Not everyone else. Stupid Newbie#1 who never visits these forums has no CLUE about the return function.