Its come to my attention that a fantastic creator has been getting the short end of the stick and has chosen to close up shop.
Cel Edman, creator of SculptyPaint.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~elout/sculptpaint/
If this kind of injustice is allowed to carry on, allowing thieves to get away with stealing someones hard work in this manner, while simple push griefers get weeks and weeks of suspension, what will be left for the content creators, the life and breath of Second Life? What reason will they have to continue to forge ahead, bringing us all new innovations, content, tools and the like for their fellow residents?
I don't know the solution to this issue, but I feel that content thieves really need to be stopped in their tracks. LL simply can not afford to allow these people to continue to get away with this.
Please do something.
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A sad day for Sculpty Paint |
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Nectere Niven
Gadget Junky
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 211
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03-06-2008 12:36
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Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
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03-06-2008 12:47
Make something really cool, try to help other people by offering the cool something for free, get screwed.
I decided to take down Sculptypaint site for the next few days. Why? Well there are a number of reasons. I love to create, and write creation tools, that I offer free to download as well. Love the positive response of the majority of people, but the same time. - People threatning me in real life, that I filed a DMCA complain against. - I got serious hate mail, about my software thats free to download for everyone. - The way Linden act on DMCA and copyright infrigment. Like one person modified my artwork, removed my name and copyright, and sells my items for 6 months now.. Using an army of bots to get #1 in the search. I file a DMCA, wait 2 months, Linden removes the vendor boxes. And the next week the person is selling the same stuff again. I filed already 3 times in a row a DMCA takedown to this person, and still this person with 'Payment info on file' is running around in SL. Selling my, and other artist work. - Yesterday I learned about the 'mental mentors' group in Second Life. This group is for mentors in Second Life, who's goal is to help Newbie`s, educate teach, lead, guide and so on. Great.. This group is rather big, about 800+ people/mentors. I found out several of my sculptpacks I sell are offered as freebee`s by the leader(s) of this group. For several months now. A 'mentor starter pack' is given out to all mentors, to help the helpless newbees in SL. I released my latest SFT-pack around 14 februari 2008. Only a few days later, this pack I created was repackaged, my copyright notices and TOS removed, (all the sculpties clearly state not for individual resell/repackage). The whole pack was distributed as a freebee pack too about 800+ mentors in SL, to use and to give away 'to help the newbees'. If this group was called 'robbers from SL' I would not care a second, but from a mentor group.. Who`s goal to educate, teach, help and lead in SL?! unbelievable. You must know, I only can continue developing Sculptypaint and other free creation tools by selling my work in SL. No income - no time - no coding - no tools - simple as that. Have a nice day! Elout de Kok - march 6, 2008 SL: Cel Edman Let's restate the most pertinent part of that quote for those of you who like to steal from the creative folks trying to make your world a better place, you ungrateful bastards: No income - no time - no coding - no tools - simple as that. Your World, Your Imagination, Your Time, Your Hard Work... Someone Else's Profit. Do I realize there is no way to fix this issue? Uh huh. Does it suck? Yes, yes it does. _____________________
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Vlad Bjornson
Virtual Gardener
Join date: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 650
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03-06-2008 13:31
This is a sad and pathetic tale of people taking advantage of a very generous person and violating the DMCA - just to make a quick buck. And Cel is certainly not alone. Content theft is running rampant in Second Life. It is just too easy for lazy, ignorant people to take advantage of creative, hard working people. Virtual content creators are supposed to be protected by the DMCA, but it is difficult to enforce - especially considering the global and anonymous nature of SL and the Internet.
What to do? I don’t know. The nature of digital content makes it easy to copy. Anonymous content-stealing asshats don’t listen to reason. The open nature of SL makes it difficult to actively police this sort of theft. I think that for now the best thing to do is to keep this sort of content theft in the news - keep hounding and pursuing these thieves - somehow make content theft less appealing to these bastards. There has to be some way to offer a bit more protection. It’s time that we get Linden Lab and SL residents together and figure out a way to stop the flood of illegal and stolen content in SL. _____________________
I heart shiny ! http://www.shiny-life.com
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Winter Ventura
Eclectic Randomness
Join date: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2,579
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03-06-2008 13:40
Unfortunately, this is what happens when you sell/distribute stuff full perms. it has a way of "getting away from you".
Yes, I know that the early market in Sculpties was "selling and buying sculpty prefabs".. parts people could use to make other things. From ornate table legs, to premade stairs, island "blobs" and rocks.. Unfortunately the writing has been "on the wall" for this kind of "product" since day one. At least with textures, it takes a couple of steps to obfuscate the original creator. With sculpts, it's actually fairly easy. Once a sculpt map is applied to a prim.. all "creator" data that's available to the average user, is locked up inside the prim made by whomwver. The sad fact is, if you make your money selling "nuts and bolts".. someone is always going to take a casting of your bolts and sell cheap knockoffs. Cel's comment that the fact that Mentors are doing it makes it worse, I think is misguided. Frankly, various mento groups have ALWAYS distributed packages of "cool stuff" they had. And it doesn't take long for something sold full perms (as a "business in a box" ferinstance) to become a "folder of free stuff". Very often it's by accident. A friend shares the package with someone, who gives a copy to someone they meet in the sandbox.. who in turn gives it to this great mentor group that helped them. Yeah, it's true that people SHOULDN'T resell "business in a box" kit items.. but if they CAN.. someone WILL. Doesn't make it right. Selling liscences for Sculpty Paint might be a better way to go, yanno? _____________________
 ● Inworld Store: http://slurl.eclectic-randomness.com ● Website: http://www.eclectic-randomness.com ● Twitter: @WinterVentura |
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Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
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03-06-2008 13:47
Make something really cool, try to help other people by offering the cool something for free, get screwed. Let's restate the most pertinent part of that quote for those of you who like to steal from the creative folks trying to make your world a better place, you ungrateful bastards: Your World, Your Imagination, Your Time, Your Hard Work... Someone Else's Profit. Do I realize there is no way to fix this issue? Uh huh. Does it suck? Yes, yes it does. There may not be a way to absolutely "fix" the issue, but there are certainly ways to reduce the harm caused - properly responding to DMCA issues and complaints. For instance, a group of mentors blatantly handing around copyrighted material in full knowledge of this fact (removing notices rather gives that away) should be expelled from the mentor system and, come to think of it, from SL. _____________________
http://ordinalmalaprop.com/forum/ - visit Ordinal's Scripting Colloquium for scripting discussion with actual working BBCode!
http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/ - An Engine Fit For My Proceeding, my Aethernet Journal http://www.flickr.com/groups/slgriefbuild/ - Second Life Griefbuild Digest, pictures of horrible ad griefing and land spam, and the naming of names |
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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03-06-2008 13:52
edit: ignore me...
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Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
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03-06-2008 13:56
Er, well, that link would have been inserted by somebody unaffiliated, I imagine.
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http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/ - An Engine Fit For My Proceeding, my Aethernet Journal http://www.flickr.com/groups/slgriefbuild/ - Second Life Griefbuild Digest, pictures of horrible ad griefing and land spam, and the naming of names |
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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03-06-2008 13:57
Er, well, that link would have been inserted by somebody unaffiliated, I imagine. Drat.. I'm too slow today. Was just about to edit my post - it looks like WarKirby added it. _____________________
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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03-06-2008 14:16
Mental Mentors regularly distributes freebie items that members have found. Of course I can't absolutely guarantee that no member of MM would have wilfully distributed the textures, but most likely, somebody has mistaken it for a freebie once the license terms were removed by someone else.
I know that there are also some groups who deliberately give away the contents of BIABs just to prevent anyone making profit from the BIAB, by making that content obviously free. I agree that's controversial though. |
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Darien Caldwell
Registered User
Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,127
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03-06-2008 14:22
What I have to agree with Cel Edman on is, Why in the HELL are these thieves allowed to continue to exist in SL when LL knows who they are, has their payment info, and has had even ONE verified DMCA against them, let alone 3. It is to me, completely unfathomable...
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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03-06-2008 14:32
What I have to agree with Cel Edman on is, Why in the HELL are these thieves allowed to continue to exist in SL when LL knows who they are, has their payment info, and has had even ONE verified DMCA against them, let alone 3. It is to me, completely unfathomable... Because as far as I'm aware, the law requires that in order for SL to remain a "safe harbour" under the DMCA, they have to respond to DMCA allegations in exactly the way the law proscripts - which is, to take down the content, and then leave the rest to the courts. If LL go further and ban people, then they risk being deemed to have taken direct responsibility for the content of SL, which means that the DMCA lawsuits can be filed directly against LL. And yes, I think that's really daft, but I think it's a DMCA limit (IANAL though). |
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Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
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03-06-2008 14:37
Because as far as I'm aware, the law requires that in order for SL to remain a "safe harbour" under the DMCA, they have to respond to DMCA allegations in exactly the way the law proscripts - which is, to take down the content, and then leave the rest to the courts. If LL go further and ban people, then they risk being deemed to have taken direct responsibility for the content of SL, which means that the DMCA lawsuits can be filed directly against LL. And yes, I think that's really daft, but I think it's a DMCA limit (IANAL though). No, it isn't. There is nothing to say that LL are _unable_ to take further action - they must just react to DMCA takedown requests and counter-filings within a certain amount of time. If the DMCA-able action is against their terms of service they are quite able to eject the perpetrator. DMCA provision is entirely separate from judgement and everything else, it is a very mechanistic process. I am not actually sure that LL are complying properly with the DMCA in taking down content within the requisite time, either, though I am not an expert and would not make any definitive claims. _____________________
http://ordinalmalaprop.com/forum/ - visit Ordinal's Scripting Colloquium for scripting discussion with actual working BBCode!
http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/ - An Engine Fit For My Proceeding, my Aethernet Journal http://www.flickr.com/groups/slgriefbuild/ - Second Life Griefbuild Digest, pictures of horrible ad griefing and land spam, and the naming of names |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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03-06-2008 14:41
No, it isn't. There is nothing to say that LL are _unable_ to take further action - they must just react to DMCA takedown requests and counter-filings within a certain amount of time. If the DMCA-able action is against their terms of service they are quite able to eject the perpetrator. DMCA provision is entirely separate from judgement and everything else, it is a very mechanistic process. Oh, interesting!.. is there any explanation for why they won't ban serial DMCA offenders, then? Is it just the fear of false DMCA allegations? How do they "verify" them? |
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Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
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03-06-2008 14:52
Oh, interesting!.. is there any explanation for why they won't ban serial DMCA offenders, then? Is it just the fear of false DMCA allegations? How do they "verify" them? I have not seen any explanation. Conforming to the DMCA is, legally speaking, just on a case-by-case basis - all they have to do is take offences down in the right way and/or put them up again in the right way, they don't have to chase people beyond that. Banning serial offenders would be a ToS issue and it does not appear that they care one whit about that. Copy and distribute as many things as you like, and you can come back as many times as you like. _____________________
http://ordinalmalaprop.com/forum/ - visit Ordinal's Scripting Colloquium for scripting discussion with actual working BBCode!
http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/ - An Engine Fit For My Proceeding, my Aethernet Journal http://www.flickr.com/groups/slgriefbuild/ - Second Life Griefbuild Digest, pictures of horrible ad griefing and land spam, and the naming of names |
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Darius Lehane
Registered User
Join date: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 180
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03-06-2008 16:39
I used to offer some free stuff, which people would take and sell, or modify and claim as their own.
I offer less free stuff now, and what I do offer is on a vendor that prevents you from getting multiple copies. The creator should put in copy protection, but still make it free. LL should do the right thing and ban the perpetrator though, assuming the software license limits rights to resell. I'm bummed when I read stuff like this. There is a certain % of the population who will do anything, destroy anybody or anything if it makes them a tiny bit of money. For me personally, SL has provided this life lesson in sharp relief. |
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DoteDote Edison
Thinks Too Much
Join date: 6 Jun 2004
Posts: 790
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03-06-2008 17:41
These things are never solved until someone takes the matter to court. It's unfortunate and costly, but when you want results, you have to force them.
You might be able to subpoena Linden Lab for the personal records of the person in violation. Use the records from your previous DMCA requests to bolster your argument. Once you have the personal information, and depending on the location, of the violator, you might be able to sue that individual. If the person is outside of your reach, then sue LL for negligence in complying with your DMCA take-down requests within a reasonable time-frame. |
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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03-06-2008 20:07
He added an addendum...
Last edit for today.. People got to understand if items are copy/mod/trans, you can't do whatever you want with it. Then I could sell/distribute movies and mp3's on the internet next as well, since they are copy/mod/trans. You must know, you only can sell/use/redistribute other people's work if you have the permission of the artist/creator to do so, thats where the TOS comes in. I wont stop, I will continue to create, have fun. And do the thing I enjoy most in Real Life and enviroments like SecondLife. I just hope my statement here triggers some discussion about the matter, and make people more aware on the issue. Thats just my goal for the moment. I would ask you not to take any 'action' in my name. The only action I would take in his name is sending him some L$ as a show of support. Any takers? |
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Pocket Pfeffer
Vide Cor Meum
Join date: 19 May 2007
Posts: 586
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03-06-2008 20:17
When I logged on to check the various 'pack's that had been sent to the MM group, Cel's pack had been included in one of the boxes. I would hate to think that it was included intentionally and to be quite fair, I really wouldn't imagine it was... However, I've already purchased two of his packs from Slex...great work they are too. So what I've done is....I've logged onto Slex and purchased the 'softpack'... it's not an ideal solution but at least it's something that can be done to perhaps 'lessen' the blow for Cel..
Anyway, now I have a legitimate pack in my inventory in my inventory, bought and paid for.... the way it should be..... |
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Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
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03-06-2008 20:50
...it looks like WarKirby added it. ...and somebody else removed it with the comment "removed a trolling comment regarding a dispute over items handed out to the mental group as a freebie pack." I'm a little confused on if this is really a subset group of official mentors but if it is, it doesn't say good things about them that WarKirbys comment was shot without even adding so much as a "we're looking into it." As somebody who creates digital stuff for a RL living, I find this a little distressing. LL should too, IMO. |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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03-07-2008 03:52
Mental Mentors is basically a social group for official Mentors, because we are not allowed to send group IM's on the Second Life Mentor group except in some very limited circumstances (for example, notifying other mentors of the need to "swap shifts" on a HI).
I honestly do not believe that Mentals would have distributed the items with malice aforethought. Mentors have no more power than any other resident to identify that an item they've been given in good faith is actually stolen, and there would be very little way to avoid distributing an item like this by mistake except by not giving out freebies at all (and Mentors always give out freebies because, well, new users love them!) One possibility would be to create a "non-freebie" list which can be used to identify items which a) are full perms but not supposed to be distributed; or b) have been stolen and thus should not be. This would be read by humans rather than machines (so "any texture with TU in the name" could just be a single entry on the list). I would be prepared to help maintain such a list and to send it out to mentals and to the other groups I know that distribute freebies, if this would help. |
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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03-07-2008 07:16
I honestly do not believe that Mentals would have distributed the items with malice aforethought. According to what Cel put at his site, somebody obviously did exactly that. Not saying that a mentor did this - not saying that at all - but it seems hard to deny that it did indeed happen and that that group propagated it. Mentors have no more power than any other resident to identify that an item they've been given in good faith is actually stolen I assume they also don't have _less_ power than other residents and that, if they wanted to, could check the creator of a sculpty texture and send them a quick IM to verify it's a full-perm freebie before passing it along to others. I'm really not trying to bash mentors here but the denial of any responsibility whatsoever from a group that's chartered to be showing new folks the ropes is, like Sindy said, a bit distressing. _____________________
Tired of shouting clubs and lucky chairs? Vote for llParcelSay!!!
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Johan Durant
Registered User
Join date: 7 Aug 2006
Posts: 1,657
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03-07-2008 07:43
Well I'm torn. Although I definitely feel for Cel and really really really wish LL would actually give a crap about the rampant content theft, it seems like an overreaction to me to pull a tool that the content creator community appreciates because of a situation that is at best tangentially related. I too have had content stolen and DMCA's pretty much ignored (and to add insult to injury, the stolen animations are now commonly found bundled with other content that I find distasteful,) but I never considered pulling SLCP as a reaction to that.
Not saying he has any obligation to keep the tool available, but that he would be better off keeping the tool available as advertising for himself. Also, he referred to receiving hate mail about SculptyPaint. Although I've never gotten hate mail regarding SLCP, I recently noticed the comments about it on SLDevelopers. Man, I do not understand at all why some people get so rude. --- Incidentally, situations like this are routine, and yet people wonder why I don't do custom work or sell things full-perms. _____________________
 (Aelin 184,194,22)The Motion Merchant - an animation store specializing in two-person interactions |
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Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
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03-07-2008 07:49
it seems like an overreaction to me to pull a tool that the content creator community appreciates because of a situation that is at best tangentially related. Maybe if more content creators would put their money where their mouths were, and remove a ton of content until LL actually addressed the issue of content thief... LL would actually address the issue. You wouldnt even have to really take stuff down or out of your stores... just ... maybe even for one day or one week, put great big semi-transparent boxes over all your stuff making it impossible to buy and maybe put one of those nifty ads that Stroker et al have made about IP rights as the texture on that box. You certainly would get the issue in front of the public a bit faster. You might even get LL to notice. MIGHT. _____________________
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Johan Durant
Registered User
Join date: 7 Aug 2006
Posts: 1,657
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03-07-2008 07:53
I'm bummed when I read stuff like this. There is a certain % of the population who will do anything, destroy anybody or anything if it makes them a tiny bit of money. For me personally, SL has provided this life lesson in sharp relief. qft _____________________
(Aelin 184,194,22)The Motion Merchant - an animation store specializing in two-person interactions |
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Lindal Kidd
Dances With Noobs
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 8,371
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03-07-2008 07:57
According to what Cel put at his site, somebody obviously did exactly that. Not saying that a mentor did this - not saying that at all - but it seems hard to deny that it did indeed happen and that that group propagated it. I assume they also don't have _less_ power than other residents and that, if they wanted to, could check the creator of a sculpty texture and send them a quick IM to verify it's a full-perm freebie before passing it along to others. I'm really not trying to bash mentors here but the denial of any responsibility whatsoever from a group that's chartered to be showing new folks the ropes is, like Sindy said, a bit distressing. Meade, The VTeam email list is awash in messages about this scandal. Let me recap, if I may... 1. Mental Mentors is not an offical Linden volunteer organization, it's a "third party" group, mentors getting together for mutual support. I'm not a member, but it's a good organization. 2. Mentors (not just in the MM group) are accustomed to share freebie items among themselves. I've picked up a lot of stuff from other Mentors in that way. I've always assumed they were truly freebies, not stolen. I guess maybe that was naive of me...I'll have to go back and check a few hundred items, one by one. (I don't have Cel's sculpties, BTW). 3. Like Yumi, I don't believe that the MMs, as a group, intended any harm. I do not know if whoever originally stole the material did so out of malice, carelessness, or ignorance, or whether that person was a mentor or not. 4. Most of us mentors, on hearing about this, were outraged. There were a lot of shouts of "hang the miscreants!". We are appalled that our image has been tarnished in this affair. However, someone also noted pretty quickly that what was being posted was rumor, hearsay, unsupported accusations. In short, the kind of thing that makes the "no naming of names" rule on this forum necessary. Trial by email, if you will. This is what caused the "suppression" of the discussion...not any desire to "brush the matter under the rug." 5. Everybody, IMO, agrees that Cel's been badly done by. Everyone agrees that the mentors ought to (at the very least) check their inventories and get rid of any stolen materials they may find there. Everyone agrees that the person or persons who originally took the stuff and removed the creator info and terms of use should be brought to justice. What should NOT happen is that said person or persons be tried, convicted, and executed by the torch-bearing mobs. _____________________
It's still My World and My Imagination! So there.
Lindal Kidd |
