The Second Life Business Bureau

What I would like to know is who are these people and what qualifies them to play judge and jury in any dispute? Or is it one person? Situations regarding business can occur when there is lack of communication or even a common communication barrier such as language and culture. In SL we have both, and a lot of it. We also have real dollar-value commerce. When one person or even a single panel is self-selected to play Mediator, there needs to be guidelines. The danger of slander becomes great if the dispute is not handled properly. This person also needs to be somewhat educated in the the type of business he or she is moderating.

I absolutely agree with the idea of having a "safe-place" for SL consumers, In fact we need more than one. It is my opinion that relying on one person, or one panel's "opinion" is as narrow minded as racism.

Unfortunately I am not the person to open a "safe-place" of my own as I am too busy running a legitimate and honest business. So I wish you luck and I mean no harm. Just venting another opinion.

Juju

What I would like to know is who are these people and what qualifies them to play judge and jury in any dispute? Or is it one person? Situations regarding business can occur when there is lack of communication or even a common communication barrier such as language and culture. In SL we have both, and a lot of it. We also have real dollar-value commerce. When one person or even a single panel is self-selected to play Mediator, there needs to be guidelines. The danger of slander becomes great if the dispute is not handled properly. This person also needs to be somewhat educated in the the type of business he or she is moderating.

I absolutely agree with the idea of having a "safe-place" for SL consumers, In fact we need more than one. It is my opinion that relying on one person, or one panel's "opinion" is as narrow minded as racism.

Unfortunately I am not the person to open a "safe-place" of my own as I am too busy running a legitimate and honest business. So I wish you luck and I mean no harm. Just venting another opinion.

Juju

This organization does not seem to follow up or attempt to resolve issues for it's complaintants. That is the PRIMARY function of the BBB in the real world. Not just the logging of complaints.. but giving the customer a way to approach a business in a manner likely to get resolution to their issue. AND the "fair mediation" of the issue, allowing the targeted company to respond to the accusations, and either resolve the issue, or show that they have attempted to resolve the issue but that the customer has refused it.

In it's current form, this organization only seems to log complaints.

even the official BBB santizes complaints (to avoid accusations of Libel). They base their ratings, not on the complaints received, but on the resolutions of issues filed.

Linden Labs at the BBB: (unsatisfactory rating)
http://www.goldengatebbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=57373

Microsoft on the BBB: (satisfactory rating)
http://www.thebbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=501264

Walmart on the BBB: (satisfactory rating)
http://www.goldengatebbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=64742

As you can see, these are companies in the real world with various complaints filed against them. The specific details of the complaints are not knowable by the public.. and the complaintants identities are protected from the public. The companies are named, but individual names are not singled out.

It bothers me that the SLBB is essentially little more than a complainer's blogging system.

I read somewhere there is a few "Big Namer's" involved in this and since I can't name names all I will say is one is a million dollar girl. When I got an invite to this way back in March the fee was 500L a year. I feel if it is really supposed to be helping everyone in SL why the charge? After all what would the 1000L be used for?

Sounds like this is more a business venture. You can make a group for alot less and if you are concerned about bad businesses make a good governing board. You could even have the group vote in the governing board. And have free membership.

What happenes if someone comes to you about a business? Who are you to say the business is at fault and then put them on that "black list" This has the potental be used to wrongly damage the reputation of the business.

Exaaaactly. I was hoping to find answers about how the prossess is handled on the site. What is to stop person A from filing an abuse report against person B that didnt happen the way person A says, or at all? Here is the difference between an outside source posting about the issues vs Linden Labs doing so. LL can find proof of transactions, chat logs even.

So what *is* the process? Person A complans, the company tries to contact person B and if person B has a totally different story, is an issue ever resolved? What if person B has no clue what your organization is and doesnt wish to deal with you because a) who are you again within the community or b) the issue wasnt as A said and you could be someone harrasing them. What protects person B...unless they are a paying name on your list.

Just curious, in no way saying you are favoring your list etc, just curious how you, or your orgniazation, are going to handle these things.

in RL and on the internet you find a lot of these "certification" type businesses. The vendor/business owner pays a fee (protection money ?) and gets their certificate.

The certifier's job is to sell the certificate as a "trusted brand" to boost consumer confidence.

Most savvy consumers know the con - of course most consumers aren't savvy

Who was it that said:"no one ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the american people"

Your right 2fast! But we are trying to show what is going on in world. Your are correct that we do not have extra powers and yes a lot of people have lost a lot of money. We are trying to address what we can with LL.

If they want us to control our own SL community then we need the tools, again we are only 3 months old and we are in the infant stage and need to make changes to the game to help change many things.

Just about every elected official currently in office.

Google is mah friend.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke134033.html

Yep I was right. Damn I'm good lol

Linden Labs at the BBB: (unsatisfactory rating)
http://www.goldengatebbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=57373

Microsoft on the BBB: (satisfactory rating)
http://www.thebbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=501264

Walmart on the BBB: (satisfactory rating)
http://www.goldengatebbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=64742


I rewrote this post a bit. Sorry it's a bit disjointed.

My primary objection is the rather "personal" nature of the data being provided to the public. in the links above, you can see how the REAL BBB handles complaints. There's no details, no paragraphs of grousing.. it's simple, straightforward and santized. There's no "he said this, and didn't do that" it's just a 2 word description "delivery issues".

You can be sure that the BBB received a full on letter for that complaint, but they didn't post it for all to see. I don't the SLBB should be doing this either.

Simultaneously, I think SL, being the strange entity it is.. should depart from the BBB model in one important respect. I don't think that complainers should be entitled to annonymity. While on one hand.. I really do think that there should be a right to privacy, SL is a medium in which one person can create a great deal of damage. and in terms of an SLBB.. one "poison pen" can ruin a person's life.

I also think that the SLBB should watch out for Serial complainers. People who make it their business to use the SLBB rtings to try and extort another person or to exact revenge upon them for firing them, or writing something they don't like on the forums. The matter is made even worse when unlimited Alts can be created to perpetuate the attack. This is going to be a PRIMARY issue for the SLBB, as how hard is it for the owner of one rug shop to roll up 30 alts and complain about their competition?

One primary function of the BBB in RL, is to mediate issues. Customer complains to the BBB, the BBB approaches the business. the business gets the opportunity to respond to the charges... offer resolution of the issue, or explain their side of the situation. The matter then must be evaluated.

I am deeply concerned that the Dispute pages on SLBB do not record anything if the business offers resolutions and the customer fails to accept, or vanishes. The business remains in SL, and carries the damage inflicted by these complaints.

Without a 2-sided system, and an attempt at dispute resolution.. SLBB becomes little more than a Complainer's Blogging system.

quoted for emphasis

I would like to join this SLBB but the complaint system has to be "non personal" I dont go for "blacklists" this is my only worry

business in the BBB are just listed with their ranking and what they do and generalisations. This is enough to know whether you want to do business with them or not or if you are a customer who made a purchase and are having trouble (as I did once due to a defective device) can look up the company and see if others have had the same problem. For me it was simply a way to know if this company who was actualy quite large and well known had any customer service issues.

Wal-Mart beat LL in BBB ratings??

What happens to a SLBBBBB (hehe) member that doesn't comply with the SLBB's resolution for the matter since there's no legal system in place in SL and you can't sue the guy/girl/company/army if arbitration fails?

I'm down for a publicly posted rating system as long as it has the same setup as the BBB does. Airing too much dirty laundry leaves too many things for uninvolved parties to misinterpret. That could cause extra harm to a business.

Also, COMPLETE transparency of the SLBB (names of everyone in the group, complete access to every meeting or at least transcripts, etc.) is a must since there is a chance that the SLBB could be corrupt itself. Again, there's no way to sue anyone so this would be tricky to win many people's trust.

I'll check you guys out for my shop when I'm in world.

Before someone goes and checks and calls me a plant for SLBB, Yes I am a paid member.

I never seen a community of people that try to shoot down every well-intended project, some posters would make it seem that this is merely a elaborate ploy to earn a few thousand L$. Someone said "what if a business cant afford the L$1000 membership fee". What is L$1000 now, $3.70 USD?. Im sorry if a business cant afford that I would hardly consider it a business would you?

I would like to share 1 experience that I had inwhich I did call the SLBB to mediate. I own a few sims inwhich I sell land to other residents, one resident owned a 1024 plot and was 10 days late on tier payment, on the 11th day I reclaimed the land , well past the "official" date of reclaimation termed in the covenants. The land owner finally showed up and wanted me to pay him the value of the land that I "stole" from him. This was a perfect situation to see how SLBB worked under certain circumstances, so I called them to mediate.

Two represenatives showed up within 3 minutes, heard a short description of the issue at hand from both myself and the ousted owner. upon which time, SLBB made a recomendation to the ousted owner that, the terms where very clear in the covenants, he was clearly violating them, and that 10 days of tardy payments before reclaimation is far beyond what most other sims would have done.

With this knowledge given to him, he understood that it was indeed his fault, and left peacefully with no more hard feelings other than a lesson learned

Now ofcourse I didnt need a mediator for this situation, but I wanted things handled by a nonpartial 3rd party, that way it didnt seem I was being totally unfair to him.

I would strongly recomend anyone that has ever had to deal with with disputes with services or product pay the L$1000 to hel keep the website running and use the services for the better of the entire SL community.

And stop Bi*chin about the misplacement of the thread. My god if your not contributing to the solution, your part of the problem!

That is a crass statement and I hope that anyone trying to grow a new business and struggling to make tier every month decides not to buy from you. I have a successful business and $1000L is no big for me, but a little over a year ago I was struggling to make tier and $1000L bought me a full perms pose that I could incorporate into an end product to grow my business. The pricing is just too damn high and that is all there is to it. The people who MOST need a SLBB are the smaller businesses that nobody has every heard of, they will get far more benefit than a well known business who already has a reputation to protect which gives them plenty of incentive to provide good customer service without an SLBB.
$500L yearly or $50 a month is a far more reasonable amount and opens a good idea up to those who need it the most. $100L is two classied ads for a small business. $100L is three weeks of being listed in Search. Both of these things have 10 times the value of a $100 a month SLBB membership to a small business. Put it within reach of the people who it has the potential to do the most good for.

if im not mistaken the 1k lindens is per year not per week or anything I think thats pretty cheap actualy (unless I misread it?)

Firstly, if someone cant afford to spend L$3.70 per year on SLBB membership I hardly think they can afford to buy even the most budget minded plot of land.

I dont appreciate being told my statement is crass and I certainly dont appreciate your call to rally people to not buy from me, this is the type of BS and shyster business tactics that are what SLBB is all about. Smear campains might work in politics, but this isnt a political forum. The real statement was about how SLBB can help the average person, not about what you or I think is too much to pay for its service

I stand by my statement. If L$1000 a year is to much expense for a business to absorb, then its not really a business.

a lot of businesses don't own land. In fact a lot of them are just a collection of vendors housed on land, trading percentages from sales, for "rent".

a "start up" in SL is often little more than a freebie box vendor, on some freebie space at a flea market or somesuch. (the vendor wall at GT HQ sandbox for example). A lot of businesses get their starts that way.. and regardless of what you think, 1000L is a HELL of a lot of money for someone selling their first airplanes or whatnot.

Renting store space if the first big expendature.. and it's a huge gamble.. 60, 70, 100L a week.. the minimum advertisement is 50L in the classifieds. Will it work out? won't it? will I make enough this week to pay my rent on the space? is this mall a good one? or one that uses campers to inflate it's traffic?

it's true that 100L a month is chump change to you.. that's great FOR YOU. but there are people struggling to scrounge that 100L to pay their shop's rent.
that $25 a week may mean the difference between showing a profit, or losing money.

It must be nice to be someone who can afford that much without blinking. 1000L is still a lot of money to me, even though I make enough to justify the expenditure.

"can afford" and "can justify" are two different things. I *CAN AFFORD* a DVD player and a TV. however, I can't justify that expenditure, because I NEED toilet paper and bus fare more.

again, my concern is the unprofessional way in which the SLBB has set itself up as a forum for airing dirty laundry against people. I'd MUCH RATHER see this group focus on mediating consumer/business disputes.. and protecting the good names of both sides, even when a "unsatisfactory rating" is in place.

Solve that, and you might get my support.

And to all of you who "beleive in" this group.. and can blink and lose 1k without missing it... how about putting up and forming a foundation to lessen the costs for smaller businesses?

Perhaps you could explain where all the L1,000s go? Why do you need that money? To pay moderators?

I expect a large percentage goes to pay the tier on the land occupied by the SLBB

Website hosting costs
Scripting costs for the website
Payment to LL for tier (yes even nonprofit companies have to pay tier fees)
administrative costs
the list can relly go on and on and on..

Its very simple, in the busines world you have to invest money, thats nothing new and its not some radical business model I just came up with,but fact are facts and no matter how you MIGHT feel about it, what Im saying is correct.

Now SLBB offers a service, no matter if they are nonprofit or not, if you dont like the prices or you think its unreasonable, then this is a decision that you make, its not like a forced opt out like Electric sheep have done to you, this group is trying to bring some kind of ethics accountibility to SL, which is indeed needed, but your slamming them for what reason? becuase you want to know what they are going to do with your $3.70 a year? thats about 1 penny a day people.

Think what else cost $3.70 cents

A pack of cigarettes
1 beer at your local tavern
1.25 gallons of gasoline
2 loafs of bread
12 pack of soda
pair of socks
2 beef jerkys at the gas station
2 sunday papers

Just cause your in SL doing business doesnt mean the cost of doing business is micromanagable

Jackson, then get off the dime and start awarding grants to companies.

You're so able to walk away from 3.70 USD.. how about 37.00? or 370.00??? Build yourself a little foundation to help "the little guys" offset the costs of joining the SLBB.

I beg to differ:
http://www.footsmart.com/P-Worlds-Softest-Womens-Low-Cut-Socks-60277.aspx

*tranquilizes the thread, air lifts it to the RRW forum and releases it back into the wild*

Hey, at least Walmart has a real person great you at the door and real people who will talk to you about any problems you have with thier business.

Does LL do anything close to this?

i find it interesting that:

A) the question regarding fee usage was not answered.
B) how do you handle serial complainers?
C)what guarantee does a buisness, who is legitimate and fair, and gets a complaint from a bored and trouble making individual, have that you will be fair minded enough in "mediating" the issues.
D)who is the "we" in your company.





one should NEVER post a buisness name while an issue is in dispute. it can open a whole other can of worms, as if you are already condeming the company before you even gotten thier side. if you are goin to post the buisness recieving the complaint then the buisness deserves the right to see who has made that complaint agaisnt them, giving them ample time to resolve it privately via im or ava to ava.