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"commentary" on racist views

Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
09-19-2005 22:49
From: Ol Fitzcarraldo
my avatar is a commentary on the view of modern blacks in a white-dominated society OK?!?


This seems like quite a logical defense of a race-issue loaded avatar.

The thread that ensued was heated and probably innappropriate, and I think some clear thinking was missed. That was, of course, pretty classic bait and reel trolling.

Consider:

- I am very much for freedom of speech.
- Linden Lab specifically bans "broadly offensive" speech.
- What was in question was whether or not the av was broadly offensive.
- It's pretty clear that the AV was offensive, but it's debateable whether or not it's broadly offensive.
- As much as I don't believe Ol Fitzcarraldo, he could claim that the AV is a commentary about racism. He has every right to make that AV and claim that reasoning.
- With this view, Linden Lab has a tough time restricting the AV, though is very well in their right to. Should LL receive enough complaints, that might be something to tip the scales.
- As far as being offensive in world, land owners have the obligation to patrol their own land. If someone takes offense to the AV, and the AV's owner does not respond, the appropriate measure is to take it up with the land owner. If the land owner doesn't care, it's up to you to decide if you want to stay.
- As far as Snapzilla goes, that's an issue for Cristiano to decide. If you have a problem with the AV being on Snapzilla, IM or email Cristiano and ask him to remove the image. If he doesn't then you can decide whether or not to boycott Cristiano, but that's about your only recourse.

But ... back to LL's decision.

What does allowing this kind of AV to be worn around in public land (Welcome Area, etc) set precedent for? Nazi AVs have been banned before - and there's US judicial cases that support such decision. Conversely, if there was a museum in SL that was spefically marked as a WWII museum, a nazi AV would be entirely appropriate.

There's definitely "white trash" AVs out there. Have people complained about them? Ehmm... not really, no. Then again, the folks I know who have them generally only wear them in private areas - not in public areas. Is "white trash" broadly offensive? Well, that's debatable as well. (Ask Jeff Foxworthy)

But seriously ...

Consider a list of equivalent AVs that a person could make. Are they appropriate in public areas?
- An asian with a slide ruler, calculator, and squinty eyes.
- A middle eastern AV with a towel for a hat, an AK-47, and dynamite strapped to their chest
- An AV with a big nose, star of david, with money particles floating everywhere
- A tall, heavy AV with a big red maple leaf, missing teeth, holding a hockey stick, Molson, and a prostitute

Have I offended anyone? Made anyone laugh?

Well, that's the whole thing about racial jokes. They're highly subjective, and it's pretty patently obvious. So it's less a matter of content, and more of venue -- quite simply -- these don't belong in public or PG areas.

...

Quite simply, the argument that "I can make this statement" doesn't mean "I can make this statement everywhere". A person has a right to speak their mind; that doesn't mean a person has a right to speak their mind anywhere and everywhere.
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Hiro Pendragon
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Tren Neva
Registered User
Join date: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 619
09-19-2005 23:00
This is one of those common sense issuies I was talking about earlier. The guy knows exactly what hes doing, and he's trying to stir up emotions. Then he'll hide behind some horrible excuse to jusitfy to his avatars creation. This will then be brought up by the "elitist debaters" thinking that what ever input they have on the topic is deep and meaningful.
Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
09-19-2005 23:01
From: Tren Neva
This is one of those common sense issuies I was talking about earlier. The guy knows exactly what hes doing, and he's trying to stir up emotions. Then he'll hide behind some horrible excuse to jusitfy to his avatars creation. This will then be brought up by the "elitist debaters" thinking that what ever input they have on the topic is deep and meaningful.

Yup.

But just to be clear - the justification is not for its creation (which I feel creativity needs no justification) - but with the display and showcasing of it in public.
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Hiro Pendragon
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Tren Neva
Registered User
Join date: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 619
09-19-2005 23:05
From: Hiro Pendragon
Yup.

But just to be clear - the justification is not for its creation (which I feel creativity needs no justification) - but with the display and showcasing of it in public.


Yeah, I know. There wouldn't even be a topic if he just made it for himself, but hes purposely displaying it in public to get some attention. It saddens me that I don't have the power to telepathically slap people.
Jeffrey Gomez
Cubed™
Join date: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,522
09-19-2005 23:24
Meh. It's all in how the person uses the avatar and the medium.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
09-19-2005 23:47
why was it eating Torley?
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
09-20-2005 06:03
From: Tren Neva
This will then be brought up by the "elitist debaters" thinking that what ever input they have on the topic is deep and meaningful.




You are making the assumption that people actually care and aren't just entertaining themselves with an asshat on the internet.
Sextus Baphomet
-v-v- Sanguem Bibo -v-v-
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 78
Different standards?
09-20-2005 06:55
I am just curious if women in SL appreciate being displayed, for the most part, as a piece of meat, as purely sexual objects.

In the month I have been here I have seen women mostly portrayed as escorts, nude dancers, and slaves. Even the ones that are not in 'the business' display overblown breasts and butts. And yet nobody seems to have an issue with that.

I am sure there are a lot of sisters rolling in their graves right now...
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Joseph Proudfoot
Proud Tsalagi
Join date: 2 Sep 2004
Posts: 234
09-20-2005 07:02
From: Sextus Baphomet
I am just curious if women in SL appreciate being displayed, for the most part, as a piece of meat, as purely sexual objects.

In the month I have been here I have seen women mostly portrayed as escorts, nude dancers, and slaves. Even the ones that are not in 'the business' display overblown breasts and butts. And yet nobody seems to have an issue with that.

I am sure there are a lot of sisters rolling in their graves right now...


Half of the "women" you see in this context are G.I.R.L.'s (Guys In Real Life). The other half do it for their own reasons, which I cannot fathom.

As far as the race issues, I've stated my opinions on those, if that makes you think of me as an "elitist debater", so be it.

I know many women who aren't on display as you stated. And those are the few, the proud, my type. ;)

Peace,
Joseph
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
09-20-2005 07:04
From: Sextus Baphomet
Even the ones that are not in 'the business' display overblown breasts and butts.




Well most of the female avatars are sexually repressed men, so some of that logic doesn't fly. The rest are bored housewives on the verge of divorce willing to do anything for attention.


What continues to piss me off is the "overblown butts and breasts" comments. What about the people with big breasts, big asses, and big hips in real life? I know that most of you are limited to the images in the western media and think that women should be coat hangers with no shape and no curves, but in real life, real women have curves. It is a shame that you can't make an avatar that looks like yourself without having some loser on the internet shoved their fucked up body image issues down your throat.
Taco Rubio
also quite creepy
Join date: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 3,349
09-20-2005 07:06
From: Eboni Khan
The rest are bored housewives on the verge of divorce willing to do anything for attention.


Is there an object I can use to ID these?
Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
09-20-2005 07:09
From: Taco Rubio
Is there an object I can use to ID these?



I will PM you information about the "device".
notpandastrongsalt Faulkner
Registered User
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 22
09-20-2005 07:11
From: Eboni Khan
I will PM you information about the "device".


Can you hook me up too?
Euterpe Roo
The millionth monkey
Join date: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,395
09-20-2005 07:23
From: Eboni Khan
Well most of the female avatars are sexually repressed men, so some of that logic doesn't fly. The rest are bored housewives on the verge of divorce willing to do anything for attention.


I know you are joking. I just know. Ouch. :(
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
09-20-2005 07:41
From: Euterpe Roo
I know you are joking. I just know. Ouch. :(



This is forums, it is all jokes.
Barrister Kennedy
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 58
09-20-2005 07:49
From: Hiro Pendragon


Consider:

- I am very much for freedom of speech.

. . .

Quite simply, the argument that "I can make this statement" doesn't mean "I can make this statement everywhere". A person has a right to speak their mind; that doesn't mean a person has a right to speak their mind anywhere and everywhere.


Not to be a total contrarion, but these two statements just seem jarringly opposite. I'm guessing it's the use of the phrase "has a right." While I agree that common sense and decency dictates that people don't express their opinions 24-7 in every venue possible, regardless of appropriateness, if you applied this logic to certain social group subsets of SL, some people would wail and gnash teeth.

Fortunately, it's all a moot point, and largely me trying to wake up in the A.M. before my damn coffee is brewed.

Why's it moot? Because SL is owned by a private corp and so we don't have to worry about your steenkin' rights here.
DogSpot Boxer
vortex thruster
Join date: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 671
09-20-2005 08:32
From: someone
- What was in question was whether or not the av was broadly offensive.


In the U.S. that KFC/Watermelon AV IS broadly offensive.

From: Barrister Kennedy
Why's it moot? Because SL is owned by a private corp and so we don't have to worry about your steenkin' rights here.


You set forth the common sense of the issue.
Sextus Baphomet
-v-v- Sanguem Bibo -v-v-
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 78
09-20-2005 08:42
From: someone
What continues to piss me off is the "overblown butts and breasts" comments.

Why?

From: someone
What about the people with big breasts, big asses, and big hips in real life?

Excellent, in my country women with nice hips, and a womanly behind and breasts are totally appreciated and revered.

From: someone
I know that most of you are limited to the images in the western media and think that women should be coat hangers with no shape and no curves, but in real life, real women have curves


Why do you assume we (I) are in a Western country? And even if we are, why do you assume we are so stupid as to be limited to the images presented by the Western media?

Do I need to talk to you in my native language, or post a picture showing you my skin color for you not to make prejudice assumptions that I am Western caucasian male?


From: someone

It is a shame that you can't make an avatar that looks like yourself without having some loser on the internet shoved their fucked up body image issues down your throat.


LOL! Women have fought hard for the right not to be expected to look like a Playboy Centerfold, the look which 99.9% of the avatars in SL seem to pursue.

Their overblowing of breasts and ass in SL has absolutely nothing to do with their ethnic pride but is a purely sexual issue. What ever happened to women wanted to be appreciated for their mind and not their body?

If pride in body image is your real issue, maybe you should start a campaign to have the women of SL be proud of how they look in RL and create avatars that reflect their real bodies, and not to pursue the smut magazine look.
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Rose Karuna
Lizard Doctor
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,772
09-20-2005 08:50
From: Eboni Khan
Well most of the female avatars are sexually repressed men, so some of that logic doesn't fly. The rest are bored housewives on the verge of divorce willing to do anything for attention.


What continues to piss me off is the "overblown butts and breasts" comments. What about the people with big breasts, big asses, and big hips in real life? I know that most of you are limited to the images in the western media and think that women should be coat hangers with no shape and no curves, but in real life, real women have curves. It is a shame that you can't make an avatar that looks like yourself without having some loser on the internet shoved their fucked up body image issues down your throat.


<----Thanks Eboni 'cause I was beginning to get the same SL need to hide the curves complex that I have in RL after reading some of the threads about it all. :(

<---- (Not a bored housewife, but I am kind of a wicked old lady.... :D :D :D )
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
09-20-2005 08:50
From: Sextus Baphomet
Why do you assume we (I) are in a Western country? And even if we are, why do you assume we are so stupid as to be limited to the images presented by the Western media?

Do I need to talk to you in my native language, or post a picture showing you my skin color for you not to make prejudice assumptions that I am Western caucasian male?




LOL! Women have fought hard for the right not to be expected to look like a Playboy Centerfold, the look which 99.9% of the avatars in SL seem to pursue.

Their overblowing of breasts and ass in SL has absolutely nothing to do with their ethnic pride but is a purely sexual issue. What ever happened to women wanted to be appreciated for their mind and not their body?

If pride in body image is your real issue, maybe you should start a campaign to have the women of SL be proud of how they look in RL and create avatars that reflect their real bodies, and not to pursue the smut magazine look.



The fact you are attacking avatars with curves aligns with western media female body images. Don't make attacks and I won't accuse.

I don't give a hot damn if you purple black and live in Ghana, this is a message board, your RL "credentials" don't matter here.

Curves on a woman is not an ethnic thing, lets not go down that road, it can only get uglier.


Most of the female avatars in this game look like slut bots because of their attire and accessories, and not their physical shape. If you walk around in broad daylight in a dominatrix outfit with knee high boots, it is hard to be representative of RL women.


If people in SL want their avatars to look like $50 half and half hookers, then that is their right as paying customers. No one else should try to instill their morals upon others in the virtual environments.


Freedom to the Hoochies!! Don't hide your "light" under a bushel, let it shine!
Angel Coral
Otherworldly
Join date: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 224
Love the curvacious sexy ladies...
09-20-2005 08:52
*grins* Sorry guys, but ya know I have big breasts and a big butt and I love the way women look in SL... all of them. I'm divorced, have a steady Man and play with Him in SL even. If I saw all the women in SL looking like anorexic dollies then I would be concerned. Until then, I hope women enjoy their avies in SL and if the guys enjoy women's avies too then lucky for them.
notpandastrongsalt Faulkner
Registered User
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 22
09-20-2005 08:52
From: Eboni Khan
The fact you are attacking avatars with curves aligns with western media female body images. Don't make attacks and I won't accuse.

I don't give a hot damn if you purple black and live in Ghana, this is a message board, your RL "credentials" don't matter here.

Curves on a woman is not an ethnic thing, lets not go down that road, it can only get uglier.


Most of the female avatars in this game look like slut bots because of their attire and accessories, and not their physical shape. If you walk around in broad daylight in a dominatrix outfit with knee high boots, it is hard to be representative of RL women.


If people in SL want their avatars to look like $50 half and half hookers, then that is their right as paying customers. No one else should try to instill their morals upon others in the virtual environments.


Freedom to the Hoochies!! Don't hide your "light" under a bushel, let it shine!


Can you please put "Slut Bot" in the feature suggestion forum? KTHXBYE! :D
Barrister Kennedy
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 58
09-20-2005 08:58
From: notpandastrongsalt Faulkner
Can you please put "Slut Bot" in the feature suggestion forum? KTHXBYE! :D


They could also benefit from the addition of a "Permissiveness Slider." Please to add it now as opposed to later.

:D
pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
09-20-2005 08:59
From: Barrister Kennedy
They could also benefit from the addition of a "Permissiveness Slider." Please to add it now as opposed to later.

:D


Don't encourage that troll! :eek:
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Stig Olafson
Lemmy stole my sideburns.
Join date: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 84
09-20-2005 09:26
From: Angel Coral
*grins* Sorry guys, but ya know I have big breasts and a big butt and I love the way women look in SL... all of them. I'm divorced, have a steady Man and play with Him in SL even. If I saw all the women in SL looking like anorexic dollies then I would be concerned. Until then, I hope women enjoy their avies in SL and if the guys enjoy women's avies too then lucky for them.



But most of them DO look as if they could do with a few good meals!
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