A second chance?

Forgive me if this is not the appropriate place to post this poll, I really couldn't decide where to put it.

I would really appreciate some input before making a decision that I am not finding easy to make. Let me explain....

There is an av who will remain nameless who wishes to rent a plot in a commercial area. Someone else objected to this, as she/he has copied others designs in the past. I have researched in the forum, as well as asked some of the designers who had their designs 'ripped off', and it was clear that this person had done what she/he was accused of.

I asked her/him about it and she/he admitted that she/he had done this. She/he claimed she/he was ignorant and stupid and hasn't done this for a long while. I also know she/he has apologised to at least 2 of the designers. She/he seemed like a pleasant person, but maybe I am way off, and she/he isn't as sincere as she/he sounds.

Although I find what she/he has done in the past disgusting, does she/he deserve a second chance?

Trial by public opinion? Remind me not to rent from you. =/

Woh that's not fair. I have been thinking on this for some time, I have spoken to many many people. I am hoping that something can come of this discussion. Would you prefer to rent from someone who doesn't even give it a second thought before making a decision?

Tell him/her to create an ALT and try again.

Why, that's what we all do!

I voted yes. Be the host. Rent to them for a probationary period if you really believe you must meddle; but first consider the lose-lose situation LL has been reduced to by trying to build a community rather than just hosting the content. Learn a lesson and don't put yourself in that position.

Definitely keep an eye on the designs and listen in forums for any whispers that they're back up to their copying, being dumb, whatever

See my reply to your PM. It is very fair, when you consider the only possible outcomes here, and the reality that, regardless the opinions that may come to bear, the ultimate decision rests with you and really shouldn't be based upon what everyone else may or may not think.

Well it's something that was placed in my lap really. As soon as someone got word of this person's intention to rent, they complained. It's very rare I have any problems like this, and when I do they are usually more clear cut.

I voted no, but then again, I have a tendency to write people off if they haven't impressed me.

Anyone who copies from someone else is usually not a quality designer. At the very least, you should be able to find someone else who does their own thing -- and at the very best, someone who does it well.

Yes they should be based on the facts. But have you ever been at a point where when faced with the facts, you are totally in the middle? I guess I should have posted this without a poll in retrospect as I am more interested in hearing what others have to say.

Walmart seems to have no problem selling rip offs that look like designer products.....

Why should Hiro take on the responsibility of monitoring all of his tenets like a big brother? He's busy enough managing lag and rents and such.

People who make money in big business ventures know that their reputation is based on being honest in their business dealings. Nobody wants to do business with a landlord who's going to tell them how they can and can't run their shop, deal with their competitors, or treat their customers. That's the tenet's reputation. Let them worry about it.

My 2 cents...

I'm failing to see the direct connection between you renting to said individual, and that individuals morals as a creator. If they have 'ripped off others designs' - while I think that is morally wrong, that's an issue between them, the original creator, and Linden. It has little to do with renting a plot from a landlord - unless I'm missing part of the story here.

However, I would take into account if renting to this individual would disrupt your other tenants. If renting to one would mean losing two - then, from a buisness perspective, I think the choice is clear.

No. To accept someone who has admitted their mistake and publicly apologized would be a bad example for all. It would also provide the forums with one less drama to be entertained with.

Just kidding; I voted yes.

Tell the complainer that you're not going to take this resposibility. Look at the poor Linden liasons having to travel The Grid 24/7 putting out squabbly little fires because people cry foul and expect their w3b host to do something about it BECAUSE LL were foolish enough to say in the TOS that they would do something about it.

You're starting clean here and don't have to put yourself in this position. Of course this is just one sprite's opinion.

Well it has been quite common for landlords to suport originl creators in the past and have nothing to do with someone who has done this...but...



....maybe you're right

<thinks hard before answering> I am usually not put in this boat of actually having to think before answering, so bear with me if I ramble a bit.

It is wonderful that you think alot about your tenets being honest in their designs, but you cannot dictate their moral standards, that much is also true. But as for the reputation of the tenet not affecting the person leasing? Wrong and here is my logic, warped as it may be.

A couple of months ago, I had a dealing the a franchise restaurant that left alot to be desired, and I still went back again, giving them a fair shake to see if maybe it was just an off day. It wasn't, it was a series of complaints that piled up. I contacted the "parent" company only to be told that because this was a franchise, their hands were tied on it, not even to check out the truthfulness of the complaint. To this day, I will never set foot in another restaurant of the same name again.. because they have shown to me that they do not care what their franchisee's are doing. A few others have said the same thing about this company and also refuse to return to any of it's branches or franchises, and that word gets out.

Yeah, twisted logic, I know, but that's how I react.. or overreact.

Should this keep you from giving the person a second chance? No, unless you have more concerns or just are deeply concerned that this person hasn't learned their lesson. Considering you are posting here, I'd say you have some serious doubts about this person and that you should take that into consideration! It's great to get facts, but it seems you've gone beyond that and should just be honest with yourself on this one


In a few years I might give the restaurant another try.. If I move outta state or outta my mind

True. However, if he has a tenant next door to the shop owner, who is a clothing designer too (and even though I don't design, one of my best friends does, so I have a bit of corollary(?) experience here), and the person rips off that tenant next door, who is a good designer, who always pays their rent and is popular enough to bring more dwell to the land, well what then? And my god, was that sentence run on. Anyway, to me, a good business decision would be to get rid of the person that copied. And that's why I said monitor, because he could stand to lose some really good designers he does have renting from him.

For me it would depend on whether she's still doing this, and whether you care about having a reputation as someone who supports original creators or not, if she is.

If she's still doing it, then it may cause trouble for the other renters in your area when angry creators come calling, and some of her reputation may bleed into yours and sour future dealings. (I personally don't do business with people who knowingly support rip off artists, but not everyone cares or even sees it as wrong.) If she really has changed her ways, then I don't feel that people should suffer forever for a mistake they've tried to make right.

The problem with leaving this question open to public opinion is that none of us knows the exact details of the situation; those fine details are what would have a direct bearing on making a decision like this, for me.

Like Jonquille and others have said, the people to whom I give my business (in RL and SL) are people I respect and trust. Granted, not everybody feels this way.

Travis, I too have a list of store names owned by parent companies who don't force their subsidiaries or franchises to meet the levels of service I demand. But that's a matter of service, not location. Hiro is merely a host. Your example supposes that I won't set foot, much less shop at any of the dozens of stores, in the Montgomery Mall because they rent one space to Foo Diner which is on my list of business to never patronize.

Katja, I admit that you're describing a harrowing situation that most of us don't even want to hear about. If Hiro starts making these kinds of judgement calls on tenets, he'll be sacrificing his good business sense for the cause of pushing morals on his leasees. The copiers actions reflect on their reputation, not Hiro's.

How the original designer handles the situation refects on their reputation. If they threaten to pull out, take their dwell, and publish bad press about Hiro, that says a lot more about them than it does the sim owner.

I disagree here. Having a reputation as someone people know they can trust is good business sense. In a place like SL where our content makes up 90% of the world, letting creators know you support their efforts is good business sense. That word spreads, and that's good PR, and that's good business.

Actually, that would be me, not Travis. What I was refering to was the fact that even if they really have no control over the behavior of the franchisees, they still get the "blame" so to speak. If I think like this, then how many others do too? I should have been more clear in this aspect.

And actually if the mall had gotten a repuation for continously allowing "shady" businesses to operate there, people would avoid it, yes, if the law didn't smack down on it first. But since the law wouldn't be a problem here.....

Do I think he should/n't allow the person to rent? All I can say is from what Hiro has said, there are some very serious concerns for him, which conflict with what is "right" and "wrong" by Hiro's own standards. Frankly, in this respect I think Hiro should do what he thinks is right by his judgement and what he wants for his company, because someone will be unhappy no matter what he decides in the end.

(This is coming from a designer)

My point is that it's not bad PR if an original designer accuses one of Hiro tenets of copying their designs. It has nothing to do with him as the owner of the sim in which they're renting land. Of course Jarod's always telling me that I give people too much credit. Perhaps you all really would think badly of Hiro for something that had nothing to do with him. That would explain a lot of the crap we have to wade through in these forums.


Thanks for the clarification. I wholly agree with this point. A parent company is responsible for the conduct of their franchises even when they have limited control. But it's not a valid comparison. A lessee is not a franchise or subsidiary of Hiro's business.


I would too because I'd consider it a dangerous place to go. I'd also likely not be interested in doing business with any of the tenets. Mortal danger is not a concern in SL. Lack of interest doesn't appear to be either. As you say, there is no law against selling such things as virtual drug paraphanalia and there's apparently quite a market for it. Shady, yes, but it won't run people off. There's also no law against building and selling cheap knockoffs. I'm willing to bet that Hiro will get more dwell hosting a store for the theif than the original designer. I suppose it comes down to trusting Hiro to operate his business or expecting him to cater to the moral whims of a few people.

Would you want their name being associated with your land? Especially if they rip off some other designer again?

And anyway. If this person knows that they can just apologize for their wrongdoing and be accepted again like nothing ever happened, then they'll probably just keep on doing it. If you say to them, "Sorry, buddy, but you screwed up and need to learn from your mistakes. It's nothing personal, but I don't really want to be associated with someone who steals. If, in the future, you're creating only good, original things, then we'll talk." then they might reconsider their actions in the future.

There is a reason that job applications and whatnot often ask if you've ever committed a crime. If you do something wrong in RL, that mistake remains with you. Part of the reason people don't do illegal things is that it'll be on their record for the rest of their life. I don't see why it should be any different in SL. It's not technically against the rules to steal things here, but the stigma and black marks in the eyes of the community remain, as they should. Do away with that and people will just do whatever they want.