Second Hand Shops?

My IMs are often maxed out when I sign on and have missed some customer service issues that I did not know about. I have received IMs from people thinking I ignored them. So I would suggest to anyone, if you dont get a live IM, do not assume they saw your saved IM, we dont always get them.

Ya this is very true. Mistress and I cover for each other when we are away, but that is not always an option for everybody. So if anybody ever IMed me a support request and never heard back, don't feel like you are bothering me to send another one.

But rational thinking aside... I think someone should finally post what Prokofy has been wanting to hear since he started SL. So here goes...




Oh my god you are so right, I'm an asshole!




Oh my god you are so right! I'm an asshole!



Oh my god you are so right! I'm an asshole!

I'm an asshole!

First of all these resellers should make it clear when they resale something differently packaged. Plus they should not use your store name on it. But yes the buyer gets your name off a piece of the product set and bugs you. That is unfortunate. But I have to wonder, are we suggesting that these resellers are 'photoshopping' pics of combined products to fool users? I would think if they had real good photoshopping skills that they wouldnt be in the business of reselling and just concentrate on their own product lines.

Second, what about the opposite? A customer finds your name on someone they love at the resellers store. Then looks you up in Find, clicks on your links and goes to your store and buys more?

LOL!! I love you Ingrid!

Oooh, I second that. A few days ago I got a bunch of SL IM's in my email. When I checked the date, the messages were about a week old. Sometimes I get no IM's sent to email and go online and I have a dozen in my IM window. Then I freezus in teleport.

There really needs to be a "save IM window to notecard" button.

/threadjack

I'm am asshole!

The problem here is not if it's hurting me a few or it's hurting me a lot, the point is that it's hurting me, no matter the size of the issue.
Even one lost sale is a damage that the reseller causes to the original creator, and being a damage i frown upon it.



Again wrong, the person that buys in the second hand store would have probably bought it in MY store instead, expecially if the product is high quality enough to warrant it's original price.
So instead of selling the original product to the first buyer and then selling the same product to the second buyer now i sell the original product only to the first, while the second sale goes to the reseller, that effectively stolen the income from that sale from me.
Again support or updates are needed on a too scarce percentage of products to really influence a buyer's opinion.



It is if they lucrate over someone else's creativity and effort. If they want to set a regular business they should build their stock themselves or at least officially hire a creator.

Well actually what i had in mind was different Annah. Like say I sell a shirt and top for 300 dollars (no copy/yes transfer). So reseller buys it... puts MY top in a box with a public domain skirt that looks close enough....and then puts MY skirt in a box with a public domain top that looks close enough. Sell both with the same box image. They get to sell two inventory items for the price of one, and if someone catches on, Aimee gets yelled at.

--- addendum ---
OH And one more note about this kind of rip off...when you finally catch this kind of culprit here is how it works:
First they deny it. Then they promise to stop doing it but never actually stop. Then they proclaim they have every right in the world to do it, even with YOUR box top. Then they neg rate you and ban you from their land. 40 pages of a forum thread later the Lindens finally come around and put a stop to it, but by then they they have already made a profit ripping off customers and harming your reputation.

It's easier to go no transfer.
-------------------


But all that is fine. I am not trying to create doom and gloom scenarios about reselling. Remember that I am not one of the voices firmly against reselling. I only got agressive because there was the implication that opposing reselling or selling as no transfer = GREED, and I just wanted to put that down we can get back to the civil discussion.

Please explain how it is hurting you. Examples and facts please.

Funny you did not comment on this scenerio though.




What your saying, is if someone buys your product and HATES it. Then thats just tough, they lost their money and have a compile of useless prims, you made your money selling junk and will continue selling more junk.


NOTE: I am not implying Shiryu sells junk or shoes, I have no Idea what you sell

This is why I dont sell boxes but Folders with Items in them...

But there is still only one instance of the item floating around. By selling it to the secondhand store, the first person no longer has the ability to use it; they've surrendered what they paid for. You also assume that the second customer would have paid full price for it, which isn't necessarily true. The fact that they are looking around in used shops to begin with suggests that they are bargain hunters, or perhaps someone on a basic account who wouldn't be able to afford your creation at full price anyway. You can ALWAYS eliminate the ability for people to sell on your creations by making them no-transfer, or you can strongly discourage the practice by offering solid customer support and after-market-value to your items only to people who buy directly from you.


Shadow and Beau:

You both give EXCELLENT examples of using the system as-is. Decide for yourselves what is most important in your business activities, and prioritize your actions accordingly. Keep track of your business to protect your self-interests, and organize it so that it motivates the self-interests of others to match your own.

I did, please reread what i wrote.



I did not comment about it because it doesnt apply to me.




No i'm saying that it's perfectly legit to resell an item if you dont want it anymore.
What i would NOT like os someone to bulk purchasing such items from people that are cleaning their inventories in order to put up a store (wich was the original topic of this thread) and undercut original merchants for their own personal profit.



I highly doubt it, if someone makes junk people will soon enough notice and he'll be forced to improve his quality or be thrown out of business.

Aimee,
Permissions bugs aside, it's your responsibility as a businessperson to keep track of your sales and customers to a level that is equal to your own self-interest in customer support. If you find that your business is becoming successful out of all proportion to your own ability to keep track of "sales slips" and customer lists, it might be worth it to go with a dedicated vending system, perhaps one tied to an offsite webshop. You will sacrifice a small commission on each sale, but will have the service provided for you of keeping track of ALL your customers. If you adopt a policy of "Customer Support for all who bought directly from me", you can quickly check the website's sales figures to see if someone actually has bought from you. If I approach you for some help with those cute striped stockings, you could quickly determine whether I'm a primary customer entitled to support, or an aftermarket customer who doesn't warrant it. You could also take a moment to quickly edu-muh-cate me to the benefits of buying directly from you; the extra time and effort that you spend to make your customers happy, upgrades, backrubs, pedicures.

You misunderstood. When i said "i dont have a record of your purchase" I didn't mean because I lost the record. I mean it was beacuse they purchased it from a reseller (meaning i would NEVER have gotten a record)..and noob customers wont believe me when I tell them this because they see MY name on the item they are complaining about.

Shiryu,
I think our main difference is, I believe when someone purchases something, they are allowed to do with that item anything it allows. When I buy something in real life, I expect to do what I want with it, and the same goes for in Second Life. The fact that content creators make 1 object and continue selling copies of that one object, well they never face any real financial loss.

If I went through my inventory right now, I would find hundreds of items I purchased that I no longer use. If those items are set to transfer, and I wanted to get my money back, well that is my right, infact the creator even gave me those rights.

As someone else stated, I have 1 copy of that item in my inventory. I can not sell two of them, only one, unless I paid for two and still own two. You can sell an object then act as if you still own it. Give me an example of a product in real life that is against the law to resell?


Food?
Cars?
Clothing?
Toys?
Houses?
Land?
Original copies of Cd's?
Computers?
Stereos?
Used underwear?
Furniture?


Nothing I can think of.

It is fairly true, expecially if your prices are fairly low and your quality is fairly high. The fact that it hurts only high quality and honest sellers doesn't make it morally acceptable.



Yes, but by pushing merchants to put their items no-transfer second hand resellers surely don't make a good service to the community, that will have more problems when making gifts or similar activities.

I am not an expert on this stuff, but are you allowed to resell purchased digital music? I know you can't through iTunes. And I think there are alot of software license agreements that include no resale clauses. Can anybody confirm this?

I think digital commerce is a better analogy here than physical products since..well...thats what SL goods ARE.

I think at this point we have drawn way off the focus of the initial topic. Now we are debating symantics and personal opinion which in all reality has no bearing on Morals and business tatics.

#1 Fowled Permissions and bugged Items....Simply should be a No go for Resell period.
#2 Original Creators Intent for Free Copy .....Simply should be a No go for Resell period.
#3 Boxes should not be sold with product as they are useless to the average consumer but wonderful tools for Resellers to muck up a good Sellers Rep.....Again SImply a no go

#4 No Copy/ Yes Transfer .....Yes for Resell as long as thats the perms a Seller/Creator put on them initially and not through a bug...which leads back to #1

#5 Yes Copy / Yes Transfer...Immediately should be flagged if its not the owner selling it as it could be an Item that pertains to #1

#6 Yes Mod/No Copy/ Yes Transfer on a Case by Case basis as some people work in teams. But should be flagged as a Caution Item.


Anything No Transfer is a Loss upon purchase....Note: most Sellers will give a Transfer Copy but the other perms you enjoy on the article may be limited.
Example: my skins Mod/copy/ No trans....but if I were asked to give to same person to give as gift...No mod / no copy / Transfer...then the receipient can Contact me for a proper mods version by "Trading In".

Rules of thumb...

If you sell it once-------You have done your job
If its resold for more--------You priced it too low....Solution adjust your prices
If its resold for Less------You have done your job initially but what was the reason the consumer is getting rid of it? If it happens frequently maybe the Item is not as quality as it should be.
If its resold Twice Ie the senerio mentioned earlier...Remember all people that come in contact with your Item is potential customers. <<<thus Customer service.

Those that are throwing the morality of " I Dont want" thats the key words isnt it..."I dont want"
Thats a form of domination and control and to be honest in a free market is defined as "Monopoly" and if I remember correctly the US government has been breaking those up for years because the owners said "I dont want" thus in turn created a hostile environment in many occasions.

Kinda goes back to what my grandfather used to say when he was alive.

"Boy your old enough to where you wants won't hurt you but your NEEDS will Kill you."

Anyway I digress its almost the end of the work day and spent too much time reading this bickering anyway.

Shadow

Aimee, I could sell you an original copy of a CD. I can not sell you a copy or a digital file no. The main reason is, on an MP3, they dont have a check box that says "NO COPY". They are protecting themselves.

I disagree that we should only use digital commerce as an example because of the permision system LL put in place, even with the bug. It offers a world more protection than an artist gets who agrees to sell MP3's.

Most digital items you can copy and then some real moral issues come into play. We are talking about things that can not be copied here.

Great post Shadow. I agree with every word. It should be made a sticky post so people can get the rundown. ( weee...lets make it sticky! )

But one last note. At the end of the day, it's the designers choice how to set the permissions. You can firmly believe that they SHOULD set items to allow transfer, and you may firmly believe it would be in their own best interest. But its up to them and you can decide for yourself if you shop or not.

But what about iTunes? Digital format. THEY can produce as many copies as they like without manufacturing or materials costs. Encrypted so that I can't distributed to unlicensed individuals. And I can't resell (no transfer). This seems like a much closer model to what happens in SL than, say, your ceramic garden gnomes.

Right, I wasn't trying to suggest that you don't keep records. But if the person isn't on your records-of-sale, then perhaps the best response would be "Sorry, you didn't buy that from me. How much did you pay for it? Oh, that's much less than what I sell it for. You must have bought a used copy; unfortunately, one of the things that goes along with the cheaper prices of used items is a lack of support. I'm going to send you a landmark to my shop, feel free to take a look around. If you like the look of my products, rest assured that I give anyone who buys from me a great deal of customer support. Tell you what; if you happen to spend more than $XXX in there today, I'll even help you fix that skirt, even though you didn't buy it directly from me and I normally don't support second-hand sales....."

Just an example, but you get the drift. Steering people in the right direction, using methods to match their self-interests to your own.

Agreed and simply Put the Consumer is going to vote thier choice with their Lindens vs. complaining about it and that in the end will determine whether your decision was a prudent one.

The Second Key to all of this...Information. If you have a Note Card explaining for instance Why your permissions are set a certain way may sway the consumer to purchase it as they may percieve your evaluation or Choice in permissions was a way to protect both your and their rights.

Shadow