RESELLING & giving away purchased items

Im quoting Billie Sunchaser since she said it so well in another thread.



This is a huge problem. I posting this for a couple of reasons. One is, we still dont have protections and at this rate it doest look too good for having them before release (I HOPE I'm wrong).

Some people just don't know its not ok to give away purchased items. Its not seen as "stealing" because after all, this is a game and it was paid for once. But truthfully giving away items you paid for is NOT ok. It takes money out of the makers pocket which, frankly really takes the reward out of making anything. We have some very talented clothiers in world and SL would be very bummed if they all stopped creating.

For people that dont care, and go so far as to resell items as their own *something* needs to be done. I have not seen this myself but it's apparently being done. Since we need to police ourselves maybe we should post here when someone inworld is reselling an item clearly made by someone else.

Thoughts? Other suggestions? I know Ive slowed my new creations significantly awaiting protections. The situation is ridiculous and only getting worse.

Clothing yes objects should not be policed I think, youve got the option there to only allow a buyer to buy one and if they sell it who cares? Its only one object and they paid forthat one , and so I dont see why not.


Clothing I can understand it being an issue right now. I think you shouldnt announce it unless someone you TALKED To is still doing it or doesnt care what you say. Like maybe they just dont get how SL works yet and that moraly thats wrong to sell it ?

* shakes fist menacingly *

I completely agree with you about this. I wonder if an easier fix would be to simply make clothing non-transferable. The only way you could acquire clothing would be to either make it yourself or buy it boxed... once taken out of the box it couldn't be given or sold and the buyer wouldn't have any access to the texture files. They could do the same thing with objects that contain a script. It can change hands once and that's it, and no access to the script for the buyer. The only way to get the script would be to have it given to you directy, not as part of an object. Of course that doesn't completely solve the issue because someone could turn around and give that script to someone else, but at least the script writer could use their judgement about who they trust enough to give a raw script to.

Instead of having people saying "ooh, I love that shirt! Can I have a copy?" you'd hear people saying "ooh, I love that shirt! Where can I buy one?"

I agree, lets bring the thieves out...Its been going on for some time now...People are now well aware that its considered wrong by the general public, they need to wake up and reffer instead of resell.....


Clothing, tatoos, textures, scripts, sounds.....NONE have protection against this....

This needs to change or to tell ya the truth, the good to great creators could all strike/get together and it could hurt the feel of SL as a whole. Not to mention if someone who likes to help others gets sick of their stuff getting ripped off.....they may stop helping.. So if this is not curbed sometime soon it could have major bad implications on SL.



EDIT:

Take for example the marble texture on the giant statue in ZOE That was Lyn's, she was not asked for that texture to be freeware, nor did she say it could. That is only one example. There are many others who have been wronged. I always try to ask b4 giving/selling something not mine. I think more people should.

Edit at Lyn's request:

The person that has the statue is not at fault, she talked to them, that person said they got it from a person who got it from a person who probably got it from a person.....See the issue here?

Oh you beat me to the post Charlie!


Yes thats what we need. And to add in maybe once they take the clothing out of the box, it's out for good like items that are (no copy) (no modify). Once you take them out of your inventory theres no copy left in inventory. Clothing should be protectable (is that even a word?? lol) just like objects are.

I for one have not made anything new in about a week. I keep getting ppl asking me where the "new stuff" is at my shop but i'm not so sure it's worth all the time and effort put in when my things are just being passed out.

I've also sat and watched as ppl have tried to resell my boxes at a markup of 50% the original price and asked them not to resell my things. What happened? They marked the price down to half original price and called me a "psycho" and went about thier merry way. Hopefully they realized how wrong this was when the other 2 creators who's things he was also trying to sell contacted him about what was going on.

Clothing is not for garage sales, yard sales and bargain bins.
Yes, they paid for them but the "original box" has nothing to do with it. They still have a copy in inventory so they are not actually selling the original item, they are selling copies in the original box no matter how you try to serve it up.

Sorry but this subjects burns my uh....cheecks because I have seen this happening more and more lately and it's been going on for awhile now. If help isn't here by release. I won't be making any more clothing.

Another fine point-->: those who pass the clothing to newbies are just showing them that it's ok to give out free copies of things they didn't purchase. Instead try pointing them to a place where they can purchase one for themselves.

-end rant

The problem with textures is someone else can uploadthe SAME thing, so you might think they stole your texture when they actualy didnt you know?? Then the other problem is remember which ones you uploaded and which ones you just got.

Jean, when someone uploads a texture they created in psp "they made" there is no chance for someone to upload that exact texture. Maybe a similiar copy, but not the same one.

Please don't tell us you support freeware here, cuz that is how its sounding. Or freeware only if it is a certain person that is being ripped off.

There are alot of creative people getting ripped off, as this is not the only thread on this topic I can safely say its definatly a problem that many agree on.

You didnt say she had made it, you just said textures, so I was replying about textures on the internet , which I thought I made clear by mentioning finding it on the net. There are ALOT of freebackground images. sorry about the misunderstanding.


Maybe there should be a way to have names attached to whoever uploaded the texture to give that person credit for ethier making it or getting it in sl, this would also help the issue with if you cant rememberif you uploaded or not ( couldnt remember the other day if this one rock texture was mine but then remembered it was, but what happens a year from now when i have a doze nmore Ive gotten or uploaded, then how do I remember with over 100+ tex?

As a relative newb planning to make some $ off clothing design I must admit I hadn't thought of this issue (I'm just not at that point yet, still getting comfortable with the UV maps, etc) until seeing this post. And it certainly makes me feel differently about my aspirations. I mean, I can spend an hour or two on one good clothing texture -- and to have that copied indiscriminately without compensation is disheartening to say the least.

I'm curious as to why there hasn't been protection from the start -- as it would seem to be an important part of SL's virtual economy. Something that can be copied infinitely without degradation is a great feature of the digital realm, but it's tough for the artists/creators to get behind such a system. (Wow. It's the whole Napster/RIAA in microcosm.)

Digital Rights Management in SL now!

I don't mind if people give away/resell their single copy of an attachment. If you bought a pair of wings, you bought that pair. Some of my older stuff was under the honor system so I kept it copyable (it's all nocopy now). Selling copies and clothing is another matter. So far, I've only had to deal with this once and most of my stuff is distinctive enough that if people see it being sold elsewhere, they'll let me know. Still, more controls are needed asap.

I have made many attachments and textures over the past months in SL, and i have also seen modified versions of them all over the place! Anyone seen those blue, purple, or yellow dragon wings? Or maybe those angel wings that were shrunk down and placeed on many parts of the body? Yep, those were a couple of my creations that are now used for whatever people like. I, personally, don't mind if people take my work of art and resell it as their own. I made it, and if people think it's good enough to copy and put their name on it, they can go right ahead. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, right?



wah wah... and metallica was ripped off my napster, right? how creative are you if you need to be constantly recognized? i agree that people put a lot of hard work into their textures, attachments, and scripts. and i also agree that plagiarism, like conformity, is suicide. (thank you, Emerson =D ) Every bit of my work is original, but i don't need to be constantly reminded that it is. if someone wants to plagiarize me, they can go right ahead...



Then again, I still agree that at least some control must be supplied... the reason for SL is to create your own things, not only to buy them. If people can just plagiarize all over the place, why would they even bother making anything of their own?

what about people who no longer play to I realize thats another issue, but I currently have textures that Ive uploaded free for the taking along with textures from someone who no longer plays ( they had given them away free to people before too ) Ive displayed about six textures from that person, is that wronG? I mean if they no longer play theres no one getting upset right? Im starting to feel guilty, even though I dont think its that bad as someone selling things of someone that currently plays?

That's a really good point Jean. I have tons of textures I've collected through the years for use with 3ds max, including the ones that come with it. If I see someone else using the same thing I'd more likely assume they got it from the same place I did, not necessarily lifted it from me.

And Timothy, if an artist doesn't want their work to be freely copied or resold by someone else that should be their choice. If you want to let other people resell your things or give them away that should be your choice. Just because you feel that way doesn't mean that others share that opinion or should be forced to go along with it because the system doesn't allow them to set their own rules.

Who's going to buy what someone makes if someone else is handing it out for free? It defeats the whole purpose of the economy for av makers, texture artists, and scripters.

Billie you can't stop making clothes! I buy all my outfits from you!

This whole thing really chaps my hide. I am one who can't make clothes to save my life and rely on creative designers to make fabulous outfits for me to spend my money on. I hope this situation gets resolved soon or I might protest and just start walking around in my skivvies from inventory.

Carrera

funny thing about opinions.. the listener often hears what they want to in order to automatically appose it. just because i'm not black, doesn't mean i'm white.

now try and open your mind to other concepts... ill put it in a more direct way. do you, or do you not know that people can plagiarize your work? if you do, then why still release it? i'm trying to say that if you are going to make something as important to you, as all these works of art seem to be, why throw them into a world like SL? don't start making assumptions and thinking that i want SL to be completely free of these rules... because i want the opposite. though, when people release their work into this world while knowing that someone will plagiarize it, one must wonder if they are only looking for an excuse to bring it out in the open.

this community called SL is an amazing place that allows us all to do and create what we want. the only objectives in the game that i have noticed are; originality, being kind to others, and providing to the community. as long as i have provided a little bit, i couldn't care less what happens to my work - except if it is allowing people to get off scott free without providing anything. i'm quite sure that everyone who has plagiarized my work has contributed at least a little bit. and that's all we need for now. i'm sure the linden folks are working on the problem as we speak, so why bother worrying about something we are volunteering to do? but, then again, this is just another opinion that i'm trying to push on you, right?

Uh, say that again for me? I'm not following your logic. Who's the listener? You should re-read Chip's post, because I think you missed something. Chip said that you are entitled to your opinion -- which, of course, you are.



This is directly quoted from the About Second Life page on this site:
You choose your own goals – travel and explore, claim and build on virtual land, make friends and socialize, or vie for status and wealth.

So maybe some of us want to vie for a little wealth. Nothing wrong with that -- the creation of a virtual economy is a complex challenge and in this case an interesting experiment. But it just won't work unless our goods and services are in demand and valuable. The value comes from a group of people (artisans, etc) who through their skill and talent create items only *they* can create. They control the means of production or re-production.

I think it's apparent from the above statement and the very fact that objects may be bought and sold within the virtual world that the development a small, capitalistic economy was planned as part of the simulation.

I think the original point of this thread was that protection need be extended to clothing/textures.


Yes, that's part of the problem.



I think it was your tone that made Chip feel as if you were pushing your opinion as opposed to just stating it.



Come on, that's pretty confrontational -- you're judging our creativity based on your opinion and, I might add, your assumptions. That's not really fair, is it? Instead of providing your opinion in a constructive manner, it sounds like you're just looking for a bit of a scuffle.

Anyway, I've said my peace on the subject and won't be commenting further.

sorry if i'm coming off the wrong way, i'll try to clarify. forgive me, i've gotta refer back to my quote...



it was in response to...



this is supposed to say, "Tim, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, and i accept that." did i say that others should share my opinion? did i say that people should be forced to go along with it? i can't help but notice that he implies that's what i meant. i hate to make it seem i am trying to make a 'scuffle', but i don't exactly 'turn the other cheek' when my opinions are twisted by another.

sorry to get off topic.... i'll get back on

tim is for anti-plagiarism policies on clothing and the like =D though it's not my philosophy, it's necessary for the balance of SL. otherwise, we'd have people flying around with the same outfits when SL goes public.

Sorry to draw comparisons from Real Life(tm), but I am certainly not the first t o do that.

There are no protections against counterfieting clothing in Second Life or in Real Life. The advantage people have in Real Life is that there ARE laws against it and there are courts who take this seriously.

I don't think the solution lies in creating software latches or convoluted processes. I think the solution will be to create and support a few player-generated rules about this, and to have some sort of judicial system that can look at the particulars and decide who did what to whom.

The "court" should have some weight when recommending to Linden what to do in each case.

Honestly, the answer to many of these "behavioral" issues is NOT re-making and re-making the interface or the program's processes. The answer is in the self-governance that Linden Labs has often implied will someday happen. We apparently need it to start happening fairly soon for the artisans among us.

Kathy,

While I do agree with you on some levels, I still think adding controls is the answer. The precident was set with primitive objects. They can be set to no mod no copy. Anyone who models has protections on their works. People who have opted to make textures, clothing, tattoos or even script do not share the same protections. We are simply asking for what what already exisits to be an option for ALL created objects, not just prims.

One thing I did notice tho is I DO have a couple of textures in my inventory that say NO MOD NO COPY. I have no idea how they got that way but I sure do want to know.

Were they simply named that way? With "no mod no copy" at the end of the name?

I've done that with textures that folks have given me -- renamed them to include the giver's name as a reminder to myself in the months/years to come that this particular texture isn't mine to give or sell.

This would probably be way too much of a PITA for the devs to add, but I'd love to see some additional controls on objects (and textures, scripts, etc, but we've gotta get the basics on those first, before the additionals could even be considered).. namely: Resellable

if Resellable is checked, the creator can also set:
Resell amount
Resell copy or original only
Resell percentage split**

** I'm not sure if I can explain this one very well, but basically it would amount to the Creator being able to set what percentage of the resell amount goes to him/herself whenever this object is resold.

The person who buys this object should be able to set whether they want to resell it or not, but should not be allowed to change the resell amount or the split amount or the "copy or original" setting.

Just a thought..

Wow ... guess I'm a bit ignorant in this respect ... I didn't know people were doing this ... I have some questions actually ...

If I were to buy a couch made my Joe Smith that allowed me to copy it and I change the color to match my living room in the game ... is this a problem in the eyes of object creators? A good example ... someone here mentioned wings they made. Well I bought some wings when I first started ... they were bright blue and didn't go with my outfit so I edited them to make the green .. was I in the wrong?

I completely agree there should be some way to stop people from reselling other's items ... but on the same note ... what if I buy an outfit in my first week of the game ... and in the 4th week I want to change. Couldn't I just sell it to a friend of mine? That's what I do in real life ... don't use it anymore ... right onto Ebay it goes hehe ... I'm not saying can I make 300 copies and sell them all to make a profit, I'm saying the copy I bought ... shouldn't I be allowed to give it away or sell it to someone who wants it?

In my ignorance ... I actually had no idea that you could resell an item someone else made ... When I put out an item I bought somwhere else it still says that Joe Smith is the creator ... not me.

Lastly ... textures. This is an area that I don't think will be able to be policed very well ... for the reasons stated above. I know that I have uploaded textures just recently and then saw them in another store on SL. Now I know that person didn't get them from me ... he/she got them from the same web site I visited earlier that day.

Okay ... those are my points/questions ... sorry they don't all flow very well.

Timothy, while what I wrote was in response to your post, it was a general statement and not aimed at you specifically. My point was that right now everyone is forced to accept a system that favors those who would resell things they bought, or lift textures, or scipts. Like I said earlier, everyone, including you and me, are entitled to have their own opinions about what others should be allowed to do with things they purchase. The problem is that people who have a different opinion than yours don't have the option to set their own rules and are therefore forced to accept something other than what they would choose. It wasn't a personal slam. k? No offense intended

And yes, it was your metallica statement that let me know where you personally stand on the subject of protecting intellectual property. I've already argued that subject to death in the thread about copyrights.

Talia,

Changing the color on the sofa you bought so it would match your living room is absolutely fine. JoeSmith Creator would not have the set object modifiable if he didn't want his buyers to be able to change the color on it.

Same thing goes for the wings.

The reason clothing items are different is because they cannot be set to "no copy". Yes, IRL you can sell your clothes that you no longer wear, but you can only sell that pair of leather pants *one* time -- you don't get to keep a clone of them in your closet just in case you do decide you want to wear them again someday, or sell that one pair of pants multiple times. What's being discussed here, for the most part, is the wish that textures had a "no copy" attribute, just like objects, so that you -can't- sell or give away a copy, while keeping a copy for yourself, of someone else's texture/clothing item.



If it didn't stay in your inventory, sure. But until "no copy" is added to textures, there's no forced removal of them from your own inventory, which means you CAN make 300 copies.

Does that make any more sense now?

You're absolutely correct that textures aren't going to be easy to police, but when it comes to custom made clothing -- that's a whole 'nuther ball of wax. If I were to ask the top 3 clothing designers in the game to "make me a blue silk button down blouse" -- I'd get back three completely different blouses. They'd all be some shade of blue, and they'd have buttons, but those would be the only similarities. It's the articles of clothing that we really want and need to protect, moreso than the marble and wood and chocolate frosting textures.

I hope I'm not being naive here. I have checked and been told that if you sell an object for $1 or above, and you have it completely unmodifiable, uncopyable, un-anything, that the textures can not be stripped off. I've tested it, and I've had others test it, and it seems to work.

Am I mistaken?

Thanks,
Candie