Brainstorm session: will variety survive?

understandable. Trying to make a business out of events right now is pretty damn tough right now (well, so are some other businesses too). The question is whether this will evolve and improve, or stagnate and die? I think it's a bit wait and see... people complained before the event changes about no good events, and they complain now (i haven't looked to see if it's the same people )

One problem with SL from a LL marketing perspective is that there isn't enough to "do" for the average user. But I don't think SL is ready for the average user, and so I think this state of affairs is probably acceptable (barely) for the time being. I agree that LL is playing a risky game though.



valid point, in the near term. There is a timing disconnect between their policy changes and any technology changes... but those bumps do not surprise me.




i did read it! lol that's why i said nice post. I only get mad when i feel like you are attacking people that don't deserve to be attacked (well, that and some of the class warfare stuff). Anyway, I COMPLETELY agree with you that we need better tools for charging/sponsoring events, more open event posting aligned with better event-board categorization and listing tools, etc etc.

Cin I faced the same problems with Chicago 1900 those who saw it loved it (expect for one person) we head some realy great things. Even a few lindens came to visit and loved it. The problem was after the grand opening not many came back. Which left me wondering, "If you spend months building something wonderful and not enough ppl visit it. Is it realy worth it?" We closed Chicago because only a handful of ppl saw it per day, it was depressing to spend all that time and effort on a project and then to end up walking around an empty sim. It will be a while before I build and pay for a project on that scale. I just don't think there are enough tools in place for anyone to get noticed. I'm not bitter or angry, I'm sad that more ppl didn't take the time to see it in the month that we had it open. Just as I am sure others who are closing large builds are feeling. My hugz go out to them

Cat

Sort of comes back to my point about advertising. The events list has become so noisy with junk events that fewer and fewer people bother to look at the list any more. The forums only hit 1% of the population. All other solutions seem to require the event host to pay large sums of money. This is ok if the event is a profit making venture, but many are not. So what can we do ? We really need some way to put non-profit or some way artistic builds and events into the public eye.

Well, a couple of months back, someone scheduled a Yard Sale in Alviso without our knowledge and to my amazement about 20 people showed up! Of course, there wasn't a yard sale so they all left pretty soon. It was interesting that they really didn't seem to look around very much.

So, I'm not completely sure that advertising is the only problem.

I think content is still where we are weak. Even really great builds currently don't have the interactive pull to keep people coming back.

Then you see something like Neverland. Which of course had lots of advertising, but to me it just didn't click. Lots of people went tho. Free clothing seems to be helpful.

Numbakulla is a wonderful experiment. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I haven't been in a while, so I'm not sure how popular it currently is. But I think this is a viable model for future development.

Overall, it just takes an enormous amount of time, effort, and money to make something that is truly engaging.

Hehe..I think folks took my example too literally. However, let's take this RL example and move it into SL.

Initial costs would include:

Buying or leasing the land to build the theater on.
Time involved in building the theater.
Time involved in adapting the performance to SL.
Cost and time involved in things such as scripting, animations, wardrobe, creating scenery/backdrops.
Time and money involved in getting performers and getting them ready for the performance.
Buying or creating the raffle script/object.

Ongoing costs would include:

Land tier or lease costs.
Performers salary and/or time for performances.
Cost for the raffle prizes, unless purely donations or unless covered by selling the raffle tickets, in addition to folks having to pay to get into the performance.


Now, how much would one have to charge per person to recoup, or make it worth while to run such an elaborate event? How many perfomances? What kind of crowds would you have to get? Would you also charge folks to advertise using placards, vendors or spoken commercials during intermission, and would they pay you for that?

I believe, with this example, while it would be great fun (and great stress) for some people to actually pull off, you wouldn't make a dime unless somehow it was wildly popular or some rich sponsor heaped money on you.

And then you'd have to begin the work of creating the next performance...

I love the idea of theater in SL, and actually built a large build to do just that, but in thinking it through, the huge amount of work, the land costs, the struggle and stress, the costs of setup and ongoing performances and time involved would just not be worth it, unless for a special one-time occasion.

In my personal opinion, the bottom line is that we have to cultivate a culture where people expect to have to pay for their entertainment. The sooner people bite the bullet and start charging for things the better it will be for everyone and the more diversity we'll see in attractions and events. It's not likely to turn around overnight but if it becomes common practice then it will solve the problem of things like Spitoonie having to go away. Things that require that kind of investment in time, talent, and tier fees being done as a kind of charity is actually harmful in the long run. If a culture of pay as you go had been practiced since day one we wouldn't be having all the constant hand wringing we do over these issues.

There was one event, the Horror Sim, that I kept going back to time after time until it closed down after its 30 day run. Besides being a game within a game it was so well done and had a such a perfect atmosphere that I couldn't stay away. There was an admission fee which I didn't mind paying at all.

This is the kind of event we need more of in my opinion.

IMHO - its all about making sure your overhead is in line with your revenue.

Revenue does not neccesarily have to be in the form of charging admission. However, if you're not going to do that, you better have an alternative funding strategy.

I intentionally keep my tier small, and costs low. I may not be making profit, but I play SL for free. Its taken nearly a year of experimenting to reach that point, but I'm there

Bet they lost alot of money, though that may not have concerned them.

All of these are important aspects. I don't think we'll be successful until we understand and tackle all of them.

<3

Only one point I would like to add. If you charge even L10 for entry, any basic players can only attend 5 events a week, which leaves them nothing for saving to buy new clothes etc. I don't see how this is helpful. Currently they can attend tringo events and try to win money and do not have to put in the pot. That is why tringo/bingo etc is so popular.

I know people say that basic members should buy L$ from GOM, but not all are in a position to be able to do that. I recall Philip Linden saying at a meeting that he was happy with the number of basic players. I see numbers falling if charges are introduced.

Alexa

I agree Travis. And I think one thing that some may not be thinking about is the fact that not everyone is going to be able to offer all of the things they want without a lot of finacial planning needing to be made. Just as in the real world. People are going to start choosing which industry they want to go into.

For instance, if you have a clothing shop. You wouldn't necessarily also be hosting gaming events on top of your shop. You wouldn't necessarily hold contests and such where you were hoping for prize donations, etc. No, you would focus on getting your shop known and selling your wares.

Not everyone has to be in the "event business" in SL. Yes events can draw people to your property, but honestly... I don't go to a bingo event at a shop and then shop when I'm done playing. I usually play the game or shop, not both. And sure, you can try to "do it all", but yeah, it will get costly. And that only makes sense.

I also agree that ways to advertise need to be improved. I think a brainstorming idea thread on how we can help with advertising needs in world would make for a great thread itself. Other than requesting platform tools though, I think the ideas should be things we who live and work in the world come up with. Just bringing in the Lindens to help create the tools for us to use (if needed).

This is a great point. You know, it makes me think that the single biggest thing that LL could do to pump the economy would be to raise the stipend on basic accounts.

They could keep the requirement that you have to log in to get the money. So, you wouldn't have unused accounts collecting huge sums of money. But this might be a much better way to support events, rather than subsidizing events directly.

Aimee, I distinctly remember the moment when the ambience of Midnight City struck me. I'd been there before, doing my normal "fly to a TP target, shop, TP out". But this time I had trouble finding what I wanted. I decided to start walking around.

I passed the cafe over by the shoreline. There were people inside just chatting. No Tringo. No strippers.

I walked a little further and came upon the theatre marquee featuring "Chasing Aimee", which made me chuckle at the pun. There were cars parked alongside the street. A motorcycle tucked into an alley. Large, empty stores that beg for someone like me to rent them!

But it was when I came upon a very small store selling a couple of hairstyles that was tucked into a walk-down shop -- the kind that reminds me of New York City neighborhoods -- that I suddenly stopped. Realization washed over me with a shock of adrenaline.

"HOLY SHIT! This whole place is SEAMLESS AMBIENCE!"



Funny how that happens when you're a clueless goof like me. You can be around something for a long time before it suddenly just whaps you upside the head and you put it all together.

I <3 Midnight City

I second that. I'm premium now, but I remember the $50/week not really amounting to much at all.

The only drawback would be those who have 4 or 5 basic alts. For that one-time fee they're drawing a cumulative multiplier on the basic stipend. If you pay basic accounts $100L a week, those with lots of alts are going to reap $500L/week instead of $250L.

Not sure if that matters.

I'm new to SL, so forgive me if this question is naive. Is there anything that can be done on the "cost" side of the equation? Why can't LL sell land to players for a one-time price, in "fee simple absolute" as lawyers say? I mean, why can't there be an option either to buy land subject to the current fee structures, or to pay a big one-time premium price up front to hold the land without any "taxes"? It just seems annoying that we have all these great tools to make stuff, but the costs of maintaining that stuff precludes us from building any great structure that doesn't make money. Civilizations do sometimes construct great things for reasons other than profit.

In fact, if I had to register a complaint about SL, it is the overriding importance of money. As in the RW, this leads to unfortunate side effects: spam, to name one. I get enough spam in my e-mail box as it is.

I would be more in favor of a larger amount of "start-up" money being given, than raising stipends. But I also know a flood of too much "free" money from the Lindens could hurt the economy as well. So there would have to be a money sink to offset this cost, and that money sink would need to be geared towards veterans, rather than new residents. Perhaps pump money into that fund that comes from retired residents who leave their money in their accounts after they cancel.

Aside from a slightly less stipend and no ability to own land, basic users still have the same types of opportunities to make money for themselves in SL. And no, you do not have to work/build/create etc. to have fun in SL. You can simply enjoy the sites, hang out, socialize. But you are just going to have to budget your money more carefully.

I agree though, I think we are in the stage of SL where we need builders, creators, scriptors, thinkers, and job makers more than anything else.

Not all great builds are made to create a profit. For example I will mention my working farm/wilderness area at Sand (97,40) which we created just for fun and which will remain forever wild with no zingo halls or sleazy clubs.

On the other hand I confess to owning a shop on another sim to pay the bills for the farm.

I agree with this Chip. Ive said similar in the past. Basically the way to solve the problem is to make people PAY.

(- is it me but do threads in General only seem to revolve around a handful of basic concepts in the end?)

If the stipend is raised then its the same think as subisdizing events again. And will lead to inflation.

A better idea is for the $50 a week player to do one of the following -

Get a rating or two every week - My stipend averages more like $300

Upgrade to a premium account - hey you wanted more money

Get a part time J O B in SL .. if events make a proffit , there will be increases in actual Employment, eventually.

-or- buy some on GOM of course, a lot of peopel are much better at making money IRL. $20 for $5000 lindines if the $10L cover charge were the example would be 500 events. Try going to 500-1500 hours of entertainment even doing somehting totally boring IRL for that.

I totally agree with this thought Chip! And of course the rest of your post. But I do sometimes wish we could go back in time. hehe..

It's a complex problem for sure. Ultimately, we need people to buy $L and pay for their entertainment.

But content has got to get better.

hmmm, it does make me think tho. Your last comment "job makers". I need to think about that. I'm actively working on building, creating, scripting, and thinking. Got a long way to go, but it's all part of my focus.

But I haven't thought at all about job making. Maybe I need to spend some time pondering that one. Might be worth adding it to my big plan.

I think all the points being made are valid. I agree that a culture where people get everything for free is a bad thing - at least, if we expect any sort of viable buisness environment to exist in SL.

I'm even on the fence when it comes to increasing stipends & Linden sponsorship of events. There are costs & benefits that have to be weighed there, and I'm not certain I have a true picture of what those are - so I'm neutral.

But having free events isn't neccesarily a bad thing. Someone does need to pay, agreed. I just differ with the idea that it *must* be the event patron. It can be, of course - but it can just as well be sponsors paying those costs.

I suppose under that model, you could make the argument that the event patron is still paying - just indirectly. They're paying by having to watch or listen to some kind of advertisment. And if sponsorship really works, you'd expect some of those viewers to go spend money with the advertiser.

Take US Broadcast TV Game Shows, for example. A contestant doesn't pay to be on the show - and certainly the TV viewing audience doesn't pay to watch. Yet the contestants can actually win money & prizes, and (hopefully) the network makes money. The revenue - is in sponsors. This works in RL, and I think it works for some forms of entertainment in SL.

IMHO - Event holders (Traffic Generators) and Retail (Content Creators) are a match made in heaven. If done properly, a symbiotic relationship can be cultivated that benefits everyone. I find it ironic sometimes that two 'camps' in SL that seem to often be at odds with one another could mutually benefit if they chose to work together

Just had a thought that might explain why I think "our" subsidizing events doesn't work well in a game and why "us" paying admission to entertainment on an online game doesn't workl.

LL has the goal of providing a technology platform, you say, while WE make the world?

Yep, that is the idea all right.

But - what kind of a "world" is actually possible? This is on the INTERNET. It's not the real world. So look at the Internet, which is, of course, entirely run by the users. What's on there? What works there?

Are there events and role-playing and amusement parks and plays and restaurants and fairs, etc., on the Internet? And how many people go to them? Not to mention, pay to go to them?

Hardly anything, that's what! And why? BECAUSE IT IS ON THE INTERNET. You can't charge for drinks in a virtual world.

So what mainly happens on the Internet?

Mostly reading, chatting, shopping, and porn. People read, mostly for free. They chat, mostly for free. They shop, and they pay for the goods, but not directly for the ability to go into the site to do the shopping. They DO pay for porn. Tons of it. They play organized card games and other games, often for free, but sometimes paying for it. And they play online games, like Everquest, which they pay to play. Have I left out anything?

That is the Internet. That is the only world the Internet has, or can have. And the Internet world is the only world we have in SL, as well.

Most of those other things I mentioned - creating entertainment, having fun events, etc. - can happen only in games like this one. And in games, the game itself provides the incentive and support for doing those things.

So this is why, without support from the game company for loftier or more entertaining or creative endeavors, you will always have mainly just the porn, the chat, the shopping, and the occasional Tringo game.

IF you want to have beautiful creations - not just events, but creations; immersive, escapist worlds - along with events of all kinds, then somebody has got to make it worthwhile to stage them, and that somebody isn't going to be us, the players. Because - our world is limited by the nature of the Internet, like the Internet, it is only virtual. People are not going to pay "extra" for entertainment when they have already paid for their entertainment in purchasing the game and/or paying its fees.

Within the game, individuals are going to do what makes sense, and what is profitable to them personally. And like the Internet, most of those other things are frills, and are not - CANNOT be - cost-effective for the person putting it on. Else we would see all those things on the Internet ALREADY, with people paying to see them.

(Sure, you can get the richer players to subsidize some things, but as people who have done that will tell you, it isn't easy and it gets old fast, and is very limited.)

We don't, and never WILL have a "world." We have only, and always will have only the virtual online world. (Until such time, anyway, as we can get in little suits and actually have our little bodies virtually stimulated.)

That, in a nutshell, is the flaw with this thinking that the game company can have a hands-off approach and this "world" will develop.

It won't - anymore than the Internet itself has developed in that direction. It will be mainly chatting, shopping, and porn, with a few games of chance tossed in.

Now, that's okay by me. Hey, I've given up, for the most part, trying to help make this game attract more people, largely because I keep running up against this "Linden vision" of us making our "world" with the idea that entertainment is somehow magically going to take care of itself, when it doesn't manage to do that anywhere ELSE on the Internet.

We can, yes, have this all to ourselves, with little Linden intervention. But unless they subsidize or otherwise build in incentives for the things that people won't naturally flock to pay for, then it will amount to a world in which the only thing that occurs, for the most part, is chat, porn, and the -ingos. Without incentive, such as subsidies, there will be fewer and fewer great places like Spitoonie Island. There will be fewer creative and unusual entertainment venues.

Because - this is the Internet, people. This idea you have of the metaverse is really nothing more than the Internet with little pictures and houses. Big woo.

In a nutshell: This can never be a "world" like the real world without subsidies, support, and incentives from the game makers. Because it isn't the real world. All it can ever be, without direct intervention and structure from the Lindens, is basically just the Internet itself, but with more graphics. And the Internet . . . well, it just doesn't have these other things. Except . . . ta da . . . in GAMES.

I would be happy to be proved wrong.

ok, i'm going to sound really cold hearted here but... if you can't afford US $4 even once a month for 1000 lindens (that means sacrificing one or two beers or cups of coffee), then you are at a level of poverty that I, as a business owner, wouldn't really want you as a customer (even if I'd be happy to have you as a friend).

I know that having a solid number of basic users keeps the community full and attractive to new users, some of whom become premiums, but really... $4 a month!!!

$1000 lindens at $10 cover would mean 100 events a month, or 3 events a day.

...
but anyway, net-net, I think events need to be better, richer, etc for people to pay. And part of that is a function of the technology/performance/stability of SL at this point in time.