Brainstorm session: will variety survive?

Over the last week, two announcements have saddened me. One was when the Rue d'Allieze announced that their club, La Vie en Rose might be going under. That one was averted through intervention from Trader1, thankfully, but it alerted me to the serious cash drain owners face if their club doesn't feature some combination of daily events, Tringo, and strippers. La Vie has always featured a variety of music, including jazz and oldies. Allieze is one of the 3 or 4 special SLers I consider to be the gatekeepers of Second Life with her generosity, helpfulness and her eagerness to see that new people have a fighting chance to actually see what SL is about.

Now we find that Spittoonie Island is closing. I can't blame Trimda for not subsidizing a project that generates zero income and plenty of expense just in land tier. But that doesn't stop me from being saddened to hear it.

I have to ask the obvious question, which has been asked before: whence goes SL if the only establishments that stay in business are the Tringo/Sex venues?

For the record, this post is NOT anti-Tringo or anti-sex. Both have their place in SL, as far as I'm concerned. The problem isn't what currently is successful. The problem is, rather, what we think ought to be successful but isn't.

Of course, the only way a free venue like Trimda's could stay in business is if it were subsidized either by the owner or by the Lindens. I'm not sure we could expect either to happen. I'd pay a fee to ride the rides there, but I don't know who else would.

But where does that leave us? Is there another way for interesting, fun, informative, FREE venues to survive? Will the next thing to close be the Ivory Tower of Primitives? Will it be bulldozed down to make way for the SL equivalent of a parking lot -- a huge watermelon-blinging rap-blasting Dance club/Tringo hall with 40 sex rooms (no waiting)?

I'm wondering aloud whether the 'next wave' of popular SL venues will be another game -- like Tringo in effect but same-old? Or something we can't even foresee? Surely among the thousands of you out there, someone is baking up an idea that will take SL by storm soon. If nobody is, I wonder when we reach the point where all the La Vie en Rose and Spittoonie Islands have shut their doors and our options for entertainment get whittled down to rap music and moving colored blocks around on a board?

LOL Lots of us are working hard to bring good things to (2nd) life.

Most of our efforts just haven't been noticed yet. But don't worry. There's lots of variety now and in the future.

The upcoming music and arts festival in Alviso is a great example. (see my sig).

SL has always been and always will be in flux with some things opening and some closing. Some of the changing rules (event subsidies) have also caused flux as people adjust their internal economic (and motivational) models.

I believe that, as the technology improves, we will move beyond tringo-like games and into experiences. So far we have had largely visual experiences (chinatown, midnight city, atlantis, sanctum santorum, etc) with some action-experiences involved (chinatown's shoot-em-up)... but that is because the physics engine, scalability, and performance of the underlying technology still isn't quite there yet.

it's such a great creative environment that new ideas will constantly pop up. we're all just chomping at the bit... want 2007 technology NOW dammit

Edit: I would also pay to attend an event

I would pay also Cindy. And personally I think in the future, people *are* going to start needing to charge for events. And people who want to attend are going to have to start paying. Then too it will become a more competitive market. And if people start charging for events, activities, clubs, etc.. Then they will be able to take in an income and pay others to work for them, pay out prizes, etc. Bartering and trade is also not something to ignore as a possiblity either.

As for those who want to host free venues, I think private investments from other residents or businesses is going to be the way to go. I've hosted fashion shows for designers where I did not charge the designers, but they donated their clothing to the models. I've personally donated prizes and events to other up-start or free events. And I know many others who have as well. It is also a great advertising oportunity for businesses or other in world attractions, and is something I would love to see more of.

These are my scattered thoughts on this issue before coffee!

Shack, forgive me - I'd completely forgotten about the festival for a minute. It's definitely something I'm going to attend, and I have a few very talented artist friends who are getting a huge push from me to get in on it Thank you for jogging my memory.

Pendari, you raise a good point. In the Real World, corporate sponsorship keeps a lot of popular events going even if they don't turn a profit. It keeps NASCAR teams running today


You've helped to reaffirm my faith in the future of SL, thanks. One is left to wonder what miracles you could perform with a cup of hot high-caff

I haven't been here long enough to be that familiar with changes in the event subsidies. What happened?


Very good point, Forseti. I love Midnight City -- it has some of the better shops and it is also an area that actually *feels* like a cohesive concept. It may be one of the few sims where I have slowly walked around rather than fly. It's an ambience to be absorbed -- and I've happened upon some very nice little shops there which don't make it into the Want Ads. Even something as benign as a car parked in an alley make me feel like it's a *place*.


Move over. Let me chomp too

I don't think it's going to work one bit. I believe funding for events needs to come back.

coco

I imagine the Ivory Tower of Primatives will be around forever. I can see the Lindens picking that up to support if they don't already. Why? Because it's excellent building examples benefit the entire client base. I've been here for awhile and I still stop in to check out some point on torus torture.

Other venues I think will have to rely on owner, customer, or investor/supporter support, much like in the RW.

I would like to see events funded as well. Where we differ is that I belive they should be funded by private businesses and residents (those who live and work in SL) rather than Linden Lab (the government).

And since the goal of LL is to have a hands off approach to SL, to let *us* make our world, then it would be counter productive to their goal for them to be the ones funding the content.

"Hello everyone, and thank you all for coming and and paying our L$10 cover charge! Before we get started with our Scavenger Hunt and Trivia Events, we'd like to take a moment to tell you about a new, and wonderful product, from our sponser, Henry's Housewares...."

hehe.. No reason to have to word the presentation like that. The name Henry's Housewares could be mentioned when listing the prizes for that day. Such as "And this great looking couch with full animations was donated by Henry of Henry's Housewares".. And why even bother mentioning the cover charge. Once it is standard practice, there would be no need.

Other ways of barganing like this are simple signs at the back of an event location that give landmarks and information to businesses. You were co-host to events that did this once upon a time David, so I know you know what I'm talking about. And of course, if a lot of businesses are funding an event, why would the host need to charge for the event? There are a variety of options in this scenario that I present.

Approach can make a difference. We don't have to all sound like used car sales men. hehe

I understand, Pendari. But I think LL's goal is actually just an ideal, without the practical underpinnings necessary. And in this particular situation, I think their hands-off policy is too extreme, at this point and possibly forever, and thus will fail.

coco

I don't believe interesing or free events will die out, but there are less of them now for sure. One of the problems I have found organising the Alviso festival is motivating people to help and a big problem is advertising. I can't pay huge amounts to advertise a free event. All the competition prizes are coming out of my pocket and I'll also be paying for the radio streaming ( if that happens ! ). The forums have proved less than useless in terms of response for participants and help, not that surprising as probably less than 1% of SL actually use the forums. I'm currently trying out some in world advertising using my stores and participants land as locations. So ... if anyone can help get the word out please let me know !

But no events won't die, it just needs people to get off their bums and do something!

I've put your free 1-prim advertisement in every place I've got in SL

allow me to reword this slightly:

"Hello everyone, and thank you all for coming and paying our L$10 cover charge! Before we get started with our Pez Scavenger Hunt and Trivia Events, we'd like to take a moment to tell you about a new, and wonderful product, from our sponser, Pez Candies...."

no offense, but your example seems to leave open (perhaps even suggest) that a juxtaposition along the lines of a PETA Event being sponsored by a fur company would make sense. i'd venture you agree that doesn't.

there are plenty of people very much into a particular brand. how many Corvette/Porsche/MG enthusiast websites are out there? with regional clubs and memberships and regular meetings? how many people flock to an Apple conference? how many people live and breath something as mundane as Tupperware? plenty.

i may not understand that fascination (i don't even wear branded clothing), but clearly people both identify and associate themselves willingly with corporate brands. i may not care for it. but i'm also not crazy about social subsidies. consequently, i'm of the opinion both have their place.

Cindy, you've raised all the right issues, and here are my solutions:

o the Lindens should bring back some level of event support, maybe even just a token amount like $150 or $250 that would help cover at least some costs as a token of esteem
o the Lindens should revise the dwellopers' system so that it rewards groups as well as individuals, and has a resident-based nomination system to enhance it
o the Lindens should revise the dwell system so that dwell dollars are democratically and actively awarded by individual players instead of gamed or unused
o more Linden contests should be held that don't award free land, but give even a month of tier relief to winners who go to the trouble to make an interesting themed sim

Now, why all this "Lindens should do this or that" -- what, I'm a demanding, whining socialist? Of course not. I think they need to refine, revise, and redo their incentives system for content-generation activity.

Here's what else they need to do that doesn't cost them as much

o fix the admissions tool -- it is currently broken, not giving the right kind of message it needs to give, sometimes charging wrong, and not understood or used widely -- concentration on getting this working and getting a user culture built up around it would vastly help the economy as people could start charging things like $5 just to get in a yard sale or $10 for a concert or $25 for a riddle game without headaches, let along $500 for more high-end content like a quest adventure, etc.

o fix the top 20 FIND PLACES listing so that it generates an entire list of places, so that people can find themselves and get the incentive of visibility in the dwell contests, and so that consumers have more of a "what to do this weekend" kind of publication in game to peruse

o fix the classified ads, they are a big jumble


And here is something they could change with mere decison-making, with no programming:

o end the punishment of content creators by their restrictions on events. One restriction says that you cannot have an event called "come look at my build!" even though people who work hard at making beautiful houses or themed builds just for wandering through are precisely the people who need to say "come look at my build!" and get traffick. Another restriction says that organized ratings sessions are not allowed, even though the way to get the broken ratings system fixed is to consciously allow people to use it for things like product testing, events ratings, etc. If you could say "come rate our new product" or "come rate our new play," for some, the $25 spent on a posrate would be the admission, and the stipends the good content creator would get out of it long-term would be a great reward

o end the discouragement of business advertising at events

Right now, it's not clear if you will be AR'd by jealous net nannies if you put up a sign at an event you hold that says RENT ME or BUY MY PRODUCT. If you can stop that punitive attitude toward businesses, they can then step in to sponsor events and put up signs in the background like a Coke would at a hockey game.

Example, let's take the recently demised Chicago.

If those organizers could simply post 5 times a day "Come see our fabulous interesting sim build and go shopping" I would have been much more likely to come, give them dwell, and give them dollars than I will if they create an elaborate role-playing game that they have to do almost to fit in under "events" subscrdiptions.

If Chicago could say "come rate our build" I would be spending at least 5 minutes to rate them as would others.

If they could say "Chicago is $10 admission" and the tools worked nicely, I'd fly in, get not green ban lines with something stupid barely visible and not clear on them, which doesn't work right (and sometimes takes out more pay or less pay than it should), but I'd get the blue-screen pop-up that says "Do you want to pay $10" and I right-click and pay it.

If they could allow me to have visible advertising on their build, and this would not be AR'd as commercializing the events system, I'd do that.

If I and my friends could all leave a literal dwell dollar in their coffers when we fly and stay for 5 minutes, instead of something with an arcane formula, their feedback and ours would help make the place busier.

If I knew that these people, in a group, with group dwell being spread among themselves and their partners, as well as tier contributions, would be eligible for the same kind of dwellopers' awards as individuals, I"d send nominations to the Lindens to consider them.

If Chicago competed with 10 other themed builds that month, one of whom would get a free month of tier relief, they might last longer. I don't oppose contests and give aways, I oppose ineffective and unfair contests and giveaways.

LL used to pay L$ to those who hosted events. These payments were originally created, I am sure, to spur creation of events -- an incentive structure to seed event activity. LL still pays dwell awards, and they still pay education subsidies (though many teachers don't use because of the structure), but they are trying to extricate themselves from subsidy activity.

I agree with Pendari. We absolutely need event support, but from us, not LL. We have to figure out how to do this on our own, whether through sponsors or tickets or what-have-you -- however, it will take a shift in consumer attitudes, not something that happens quickly. A really HOT event that captures everyone's attention and that charges for participation, would help here. Break the ice, so to speak...

This is not a judgement on the value of events -- instead it has everything to do with LL's goal of providing a technology platform, while WE make the world. It's gonna remain hard for a while though. LL knows that events are necessary for their growth, and wonderful services to the community. But they want the community to be self-sustaining.


[As an aside, Cindy, I think you're a great new voice here on the forums. Welcome.]

Well Pen, would you like to keep asking folks to donate prizes for events?? I know I HATE doing it. And I've done it quite a few times. Some folks are always very, very generous, and others aren't, but either way, if you run alot of events, you just simply can't keep expecting a variety of free stuff to hand out just giving them credit for the donation and for giving them alot of mention. And even then, folks love cash, so they can shop for what they really want, instead of relying on the luck of the draw prize-wise.

Also, as far as costs go, here are some other factors not covered by generous donations:

*Time Involved. Some events, especially if they are regular events, take very little prep time. But a lot of great and really fun events take considerable time and effort to set up and run, and often times by multiple people. If no income is generated other than a tiny amount for dwell, then those people are doing it for no pay.

*Land costs. Second Life isn't cheap at all if you want to build and develop land for entertaining Second Life residents. I've run Perilous Pleasures for over a year now, and have had numerous events, wonderful community support, creative and helpful people, and a very loyal and steady crowd. No it's not a dance club.

And throughout all this time, I've always run it a cost to my self. The land tier fees, prize costs, trying to at least sometimes pay those that really help out, etc.
When I finally decided to close it, the D/s community stepped in and helped me run it, which took a time and stress burden from me, but not a financial one. I had to pretty much cut out contest events, and stick to events that didn't cost me additional funds.

I'm not complaining, and it is my choice, but providing entertainment, in most cases, does cost money, even beyond prize costs.

That's a minimal (or zero) sum expense on their part, isn't it? Is their withdrawal of subsidies philosophy-based rather than economic?

Your list is great Prok. I agree with just about all of it, especially the bit about the admissions tool. It doesn't make much sense to me that they would eliminate subsidies and then not give us a tool that could easily compensate for that loss.

In fact, the best way, IMO, to encourage community events is a combination of both low entry fee and business sponsorship. NASCAR is wall-to-wall with billboards and nobody minds. Even college sports, once the last refuge of amateurism, now sport commercial billboards scattered around the playing field or court. They're not invasive, and they help the colleges.


I'd forgotten this in my list of things that have gone belly up lately. Another example of the tide of events sweeping some good things aside.

Good list, Prok. Thanks.

And Forseti, you're way too kind. I can't help it if I'm a jabberbox.

good post prok... valid comments in there

(I do try to give credit where credit is due)

Forseti,

I lived briefly under the rein of events subsidies, and I even managed to get like 2-3 of my architectural display events and dance contest awarded some $500. It never covered my expenses, nor did dwell. That was one of the reasons I moved away from club management to real estate as an SL occupation.

The system was ended because it was gamed, and every second sexay avatar "contest" with 3 people, a friend and their 2 friends who "won the contest" was getting subsidies.

It was an easy system to game, and a hard system to apply for as a newbie -- I often had applications simply ignored and had to keep pestering Lindens. A few oldbies who were locked into the system with understandable, regular events of the content the Lindens liked were automatically paid out each week. Others had trouble. This was my first exposure to the problematic feting system.

I still think due to the clamour of the "masses" that they should put it back. But they should make it easier to apply for, and make the rules crystal clear. They had a rule that you had to put down the number of people who attended -- but anyone could lie and say they had 40, and how could Lindens check? Maybe attendance recording tools have to be built in the game.

I also reject this notion that it all has to be the players because they have not created the tools and the environment necessary for the players to do this.

Read my post, Forseti. I'm happy to have all Linden subsidies disappear tomorrow. But I want them replaced with things that enable me as a business person to sponsor events, get my advertising in them, and have traffic to my places of business without being AR'd and punished. I can sponsor events and pay out costs for them if I see they at least give me long-term visibility, shoppers, customers.

Right now, there are too many things broken, and too many punishments for me to do this effectively. I do it anyway because I believe in constantly trying to add interesting discussions and so on to SL content.

I don't mind if the Lindens have a notion "we make the technology and you make the world". But that isn't really the notion they have. It's more like this: "We make the technology along with a select category of players who make the technology with us and help sell the product and the rest of you, sink or swim."

I can't make a world I don't have the freedom or the simple tools to make.

I agree LL made a smart move taking out support for events. this feature was to help get events established, and to get SL off the ground so to speak, now that the player base has grown 10 fold, its no longer nessessary, and there are still some limited events that still offer support. (teaching)

the events of tomarrow will hopefully be more wide spread as more and more venues and ideas come into reality. like mentioned there will be more cross promotion, corporate sponsors, and even pay to attend events. all these funds will cover expenses and prizes, while giving advertising to all parties involved. (something not to be overlooked)

I have been working on a place, Fairplay Community Center (FCC) located on the island in Farwell. (also in my picks) it is in its final phases of construction but will be opening soon. (feel free to check it out and offer feedback) at this venue I am offering an aray of free games, a park, and an event hall for anyone to host an event FREE, like a private party, weddings, birthdays, trivia, fashion shows, etc. etc.

Its a shame to hear of good places closing their doors, but dont let that get you down. just let that be modivation to attend any non profit venue, and support thier causes / sponsors in the future. there should be more places comming available, we just have to be patient!

I really don't think there is an easy answer to this problem.

The old LL sponsership of events was getting gamed by some clubs. And as it stands, alot of clubs are still paying out large amounts of prize money, though i have no idea how, unless they simply keep buying from GOM.

I would pay to attend well thought out, fun events. I would gladly pay a cover charge. Unfortunately, many folks wouldn't because many folks are on basic accounts, or are very new, or both, and really don't have the desire, or means, to pay to go to an event, particularly one that they've never been to and are unsure of, when others are free.

Also, cover charges will prove to be a pain in the ass for the land owner. IMs demanding refunds because "this event sucked!" or "I crashed and couldn't get back" or other reasons.

Attendence will generally be smaller at cover charge events, thus generating less dwell, so how much benefit financially there would be is very questionable.

The best event hosts and most creative event organizers I know of, almost never make a dime, and generally lose money. The most boring and simple events I know of (while very popular) generally have the best chance of making a profit.

I don't have an easy answer, but I think we will see more and more of the very well put together events and entertainment builds going away. It's just too expensive..

Hmmm, here's an example from real life... "Hello everyone and welcome to tonight's performance of Cats here on beautiful Broadway. Raffle ticket numbers will be read at the end of the night, good luck! Be sure and stop by the lobby to lick the money balls during intermission. We'll be starting the performance as soon as everyone gets to the boxoffice to pick up their money"