Abandoned Land

It would be nice to think that people who owned land would take care of it. While a lot of land owners do, quite a few apparently ignore it. We have some charter members in our sim who are never in-world and never come by to clean up messes people leave on their land. I've IMed one many times asking him to turn on auto-return, but I've never gotten a response and I've never seen him around. He has a nice build there, but there are also 125 garbage objects on his land, from crashed vehicles to bullets to signs people moved onto his land and left there. It's ugly and stupid. We have another charter member neighbor who is never around, though once she did come by to clean up a mess after I asked her a couple times. But she won't turn on auto-return because she has some things people built for her that she doesn't own and she doesn't want to lose. I like her home there, but the trash buildup gets to be a real drag.

I understand charter members get permanent accounts with a large land tier, so they can disappear and their land will be held for them forever. This makes me sad, as there doesn't seem to be any hope of that land ever being useful for anyone ever again. It just sits there and accumulates trash (land scanners too, probably). And I bet in a lot of the cases the owners wouldn't care if the land was reclaimed and sold at auction, because they will never log into SL again. I have no suggestion for what to do about this, I just don't like it.

Yes, I agree that the Lindens should try to do something about this, if nothing else, to step in and put the land on autoreturn.

And while they are at it, they should reclaim the 3000 LL I accidently sent to someone who is never online who has a very similar name to the av I wanted to send the money to.

I think it would be a great idea if LL put in a time limit for inactivity on land. You don't log into the game for 6 months you lose your land. Your objects are returned to your inventory and your land is returned to LL. You decide to return to SL you are given an equivelent section of land back from what is available for auction. You can do this only once, if you are gone another 6 months the land is returned and you can't get a replacement although you still keep your account and tier setup. Of course if you contact LL and make arangements for long periods of inactivity would negate that.

I think 6 months of inactivity would be reasonable. Being a lifetime member myself (similar to beta, but I had to pay US$225), I wouldn't mind if my inworld objects were returned after 6 months of inactivity, and my land auctioned for L$ (and the auctioned money returned to my account, and not the Lindens). I don't think the land should be taken away from people without compensation.

One of the things i find so great about SL is that your land, your house, your stuff, is going to be there as long as you pay for it.
Its the only game i know of wich resembles RL in this way; that things ARE there and STAY there as well, that, hypotetically(do you write it like this??), 20 years from now my land could look exactly the same as it looks now even if i hadnt been there at all (i wish it would age as well though, with dust on my furniture, trees that have grown, plants that have died and all the wood a little darker than it is now..)

Also, shit happens. I had a really bad year last year and for a period of 4-6 months i barely logged on. I only logged on once every 6 weeks because i read somewhere (??) that you could loose acces to SL if you didnt, but even that was too much and i had rather not logged on at all. There will always be things as the loss of someone you love to mess up your second and your first life, and maybe you just dont care enough then to take care of your account. I think that shouldnt be a problem. As long as you pay it should be yours, and then it shouldnt be allowed to change without you. But thats my opinion.

I remember a while back when they made the big TOS changes a thread about a time limit clause in there.

I think it's 60 days?

Anyway, I'm fairly certain what you mention is already in place.

However, as a Lifer, the 60 day (or whatever it is) thing concerns me. I find SL to be much sweeter when I take breaks every once in a while. If ever I make that month long sojourn to Amsterdam (which would turn into 2 months no doubt) I'd hate to get back and find my place (chaotic though it is) wiped out.

Now, as to how enforced the time limit is. . . that I would imagine varies from situation to situation as with most things in SL.

No, they should just leave it.

Just avoid doing builds near charter members.

i agree with hank about paying auction winnings into the residents' accounts after a six month absense.

pituca, i don't know why they couldn't change the lifetime rules at this point as long as they email everyone involved. they did it once just before 1.2 came out and they survived that okay.

Agreed. Land neglect is potentially pretty harsh, especially coming from someone that, uhh... logs in a bit, but was quite neglectful of his owned plot in the past.

This is, however, one more reason why I prefer renting land on personal sims.

I believe LL does have the right to change their terms of service.

As for the lifetime thing, I'm betting the word "Lifetime" does not refer to the RL lifespan of the user. Most product/service "Lifetime" agreements are in effect for the lifetime of the product - as determined by the company offering the product. For one, this means that even though the product/service is still usable, the company could consider it dead and cease to offer support. For two, the company could consider the product to have undergone enough change to consider it reborn as a new generation... and consider the original version dead.

Of course as always, I could be totally wrong.

I thought that the whole purpose of SL was to give people an opportunity to pay for gauranteed space where thier data is both protected and permanent? It may seem pissy for someone to let thier land go to fallow but it is their land to do with as they please. Even if what they please to do is to not attend to it or log in for months at a time.

Hell, I have RL neighbors who pay alot more for "storage space" homes that they let go to hell in a handbasket but as long as their home is not a health risk there isn't a damn thing I can do about it. In fact I have a neighbor behind my home who collects all sorts of weird junk in his backyard. He says that someday he'll use it, though I have yet to see any of it move. People know he is a collector of crap so they often drop their crap off as well. I would love to call the city and say "Official underpaid city worker, would you please force this man to sell his property to someone who will take better care of it so that I don't have to look at it every morning. Afterall he is rarely home anyhow? Ohh and don't tell him about it just deposit the money in his account." Hmmm no court case there.

Lately the squeeky wheels seem to have a hard on for telling other folks what they can and cannot do with thier land in SL. These same wheels get pretty ticked when anyone steps on their sl toes though. It's like listening to teenaged siblings who share a room fight over which boy band posters to put on the wall. Just because you don't like what you see that doesn't mean you have the god given right to make an ordinance against it or order the confiscation of property.

Bottom line is that if they payed for it then it is their land. As far as the Charter members are concerned, there are a finite number of them so their percentage of the population drops every day. The more non-charter members sign on the less the charter members really have any affect on the day to day goings on. Get over it...enjoy your own home/space and quit looking down your noses at others who do SL their way and not your way. For some it is a second life which means that the first one takes precedence.

Well, as a holder of a lifetime account all I can say is I wouldn't be terribly upset if they did enact this sort of thing as long as they recognise the difference between an extented leave and abandonment. If I write LL up and tell them I am going to Iceland for a year then yeah, they should hold the land but if you haven't logged in in 8 months and don't answer emails then perhaps LL should take steps to reutilize the land.

About getting the proceeds from the auction of your abandoned land, the problem is two fold. As a lifetime account holder I am entitled to 4096 m2 of land. The problem is that land may only sell for $60 at auction but could cost $100 to get the equivelant land back. I would rather choose from land currently up for auction rather than pay more to get my land back.

As far as I am concerned there are far too many other problems with SL that this would be a usless waste of time to bother with but perhaps in 5 years things could be different.

Once again a "so and so isn't playing the world the way I want it played" remark. Bloody hell folks what if I bought my unused 2400 metres for no other purpose than to sit on it and wait for the value to rise. I should be able to leave SL for a year and expect that land to still be there. It is mine. I pay for it either in premium accounts or teir fees. It is not your right to decide whether or not my land is sold at auction regardless of whether the money is going into my account. That is my call.

If I bought real estate irl and let it sit undeveloped trash may accumulate but the city does not have the right to take my land and sell it out from under me. They may fine me for having to send workers out to clean it but they cannot sell land deeded to me for any reason beyond health code violations. Get a grip and leave folks to their own SL.

Not true. I'd guess you don't own a home in RL. I do, and it's a lot more complicated than you think. If you don't pay your property taxes, the city/county can take your property from you even if you own it outright. And a homeowners association can take your property if you don't pay your dues. In addition, eminent domain lets the government take your land from you if it wants to put in a freeway or something, usually compensating you. Land can also be condemned, like the town of La Conchita that is so prone to mudslides that the state of California will likely force everyone to move out. So I'm not taking sides here on the issue of whether LL *should* sell abandoned land, but I had to point out that you don't know what you're talking about. Just because it's your opinion doesn't make it true.

In my post that started this thread I did not advocate any particular solution to what I percieve as a problem. It's been interesting seeing all these suggestions and viewpoints. After thinking about it more, I think that there are cases where abandoning land and refusing to maintain it can be a form of abuse, just like puting up a griefing build can. If your land is a garbage dump and you won't clean it up and the trash is spewing particles and light and sounds all over the sim, that's a problem for your neighbors, and potentially a problem for the Lindens who may have to keep cleaning up your mess.

Owning land doesn't just give you property rights, it also gives you certain responsibilities as an owner - in SL the TOS/CG spell out some of those, like not banning residents who need to cross your land to get to their own. If you are violating TOS/CG by abusing your neighbors, LL can take action up to banning you from SL, so I see no problem with them repossessing your land, clearing it of builds, or at least setting it to autoreturn.

The one that gets me is the person that buys land on the auctions, and then never comes to claim it! (Ran into a spot of land in Bodega that was set to sell to someone from a Linden for months!)

I think that this comment is rather harsh. By paying tier fees (which Isis admits is a precondition for keeping one's land) you are in a sense paying property taxes. Most sims do not have homeowner's associations, so that example doesn't really wash (for some group owned land it does, but that's a different case). And we don't have "cursed" land in SL, at least not normally anyway. So, for you to say she doesn't know what she is talking about is frankly greatly overstating your examples.

Now one other RL example is eminent domain. Not sure where this would really crop up in SL terms, as LL doesn't seem to be into builiding infrastructure once the sim is made available. But they could do this to clean up "trash" space for redevelopment. In this case they would need to compensate the land owners, which is probably rather uncontroversial.

That said, just because the RL case studies don't quite apply to SL doesn't mean the issue is moot. Though I do lean towards Isis' argument.

OK, I think this has gotten off track. Gee, that never happens in the forums. I'm not saying people who are paying monthly fees should have their land sold out from under them. What I was talking about are people who pay nothing monthly because they had a permanent account with a large included tier. Those people can disappear, could even conceivably die in RL, and their land would just carry on forever. I'm not talking about taking land away from people who are actively using it (and investing is a use), but people who would never miss it if it went away.

Some people have responded to say if someone paid for land they can do whatever they want with it. That is clearly not true, as there are TOS/CG restrictions. Abandoning land not only means people probably wouldn't care if they lose it, but their not maintaining the land becomes a drag on others who are actively playing the game. I don't see how this is qualitatively different than creating griefing builds or other things that violate TOS/CG, except of course that it isn't in the TOS/CG.

Charter Member != Lifetime Account

Charter Member means you were about in Beta.

I dont know. My first land was a tiny 512 plot wich was literally build-in by a huge castle. only one side of my parcel was still partly open and the walls around me were high. The owners offered to buy me out and so i sold the land. It was necessary because they expected a lot of lag when they would start organizing events.
As far as I know, there is no protection in SL when its about buildings on the land around yours. If you dont like it you leave it, thats kind off how it works here.
At first i found that very odd (in my country a view can actually be a protected part of your house/land, and you need all kinds of permits from the city-counsil-something-something if you want to even build the smallest shed in your garden or make your house a little bigger by expanding the kitchen, hey you need a permit to remove a tree from your garden if it has a trunk wich has a diameter bigger than 20 centimeters), but im used to it now. Its just very...capitalist. Or something. But it kind of makes sense. I mean, when you start to regulate things like a view, were will it ends? What if you dont like the bright-purple castle your neighbour build? Its a thin line here between irritation and tolerance in SL. The buildings are for obvious reasons often very experimental and excessive and i would hate to see that regulated, or anything else only because someone else considers it "trash".
Maybe you can ask the Lindens to remove the stuff thats there wich is not from the owner of the parcel, but that should be it really. I think.

Im not a lifetime member, i pay monthly, so...what DOES happen with my land and my stuff if i dont log on for a few months? I still dont get that part.... I would really appreciate it if someone could tell me that

Show me where in the TOS there is any indication that a persons property has to be maintained to some code other than mature/offensive content displays. Further more, if you find them, please point out where LL states that your land can be taken from you for not adhering to these codes. Suspending someone for a ToS violation is alot different from taking the land which they pay teir fees (taxes) on and put up a hefty sum to obtain in the first place.

Ohh and btw not that it is any of your business but I do own a home. I chose a home in a neighborhood which does not have a HOA because I didn't want to put up with a bunch of old hens telling me what color to paint my front door or what flowers I am allowed to plant for spring. I also stated in my first post that the rl officials can take your land if your land becomes a health or safety risk. There are no such issues in sl. Some cities have overstepped the bounds of eminent domain (including mine) but these cases are in the process of being heard by the courts. Lit already pointed out the fact that Linden owned infrastructure is mostly complete by the time the sim is put to auction and the linden owned land for further expansion is held by governor linden. But this is not what you are talking about anyway. You are suggesting that land unused by a resident should be stripped from the resident just because you do not feel they are properly addressing maintenance issues.

I would also be interested in the percentage of this abandoned land gone to squalor in SL. Is it really an issue worth the risk of taking away someones land who is merely on sebatical for a month or two? Is there a land shortage which I wasn't aware of? What does SL do when the person returns to see that their year long investment has been sold for a fraction of what they payed for it. What do you tell some one when they find that the home they built has been lost forever in an inventory of 1000 objects labeled object and they have only the option of buying land at more than 10 times the price of their previously owned parcel in order to be made whole?

There is a reason why LL does not take the actions which you seem to wish for. So in that respect you don't know what you are talking about.

Isis, your entire response to me is based on your misreading my comment.



I didn't say the TOS/CG said that. I said that if abandoned land becomes a problem for neighbors that could be included in the TOS/CG with as much justification as creating a griefing build. I never said that was part of TOS/CG now, but others have suggested changing the TOS/CG as a way to address this problem.



I have never in this thread made the suggestion that land should be taken from owners. I have only played devil's advocate by saying that LL could justify it in various ways, and that some players who have stopped playing the game forever may not care anyways. Also, you originally stated that health code violations were the only reason your RL property could be taken from you. I rebutted that by pointing out RL examples that contradicted your statement. I did not say those RL examples applied to SL property, but you seem to think that your supposedly unrevokable right to RL property has some bearing in SL.



Once again, you are putting words in my mouth. I am not wishing for land to be taken from people unfairly. But I do wish LL would address this problem somehow. It probably isn't a problem in the new sims, but I am based in one of the oldest sims, and there are two of these parcels there.

So let me put my position clearly: Abandoned land means someone doesn't care about it anymore. If they don't care about it, they don't care what LL does to clean it up so it's not a problem for people who are still playing the game and paying money every month.

I don't know why you are arguing with me. The only thing you've said that I have disagreed with is that your RL property can't be taken from you except for health violations. If I was harsh in my treatment of you, I apologize. Now, if you want to argue with someone over taking land from people, please direct your arguments at someone who has actually advocated it. My goal of this thread is to hear what people think about the issue, not to push my own solution.

Sorry Jumpda not attacking you in anyway here but thats not gonna fly.
We paid an exhorbitant amount to get those "Charter Accounts".
I can understand your flustration.
But, I can't offer any solutions.
But at the same time offering solutions such as this is no different than a government coming in and attempting to either zone my land or tell me what I can or cannot do with it.
By submitting to this theology this means you or anyone else think they have the right to dictate what is ugly and what isn't.
Sorry its not for anyone to judge but the owner of the land as they paid for it.
Which if you have read the forums a bit, this topic is an on going battle from month to month.
Remember your rights end where your land boundarys end.
The moment you try to presume that you can dictate what any other "PAYING" member has done on thier land you have lowered yourself to the level of the "Im better than you mentality"
As you can see that sort of mentality will get assaulted quickly and not dismissed.
So again Im not attacking you but offering some insight at to the past battles and commentary and this not only goes to Jumpda but to anyone else that for one minute presumes they can control what another paying customer can put on their land.

Sincerely, Shadow Weaver...The Ancient with more ass than the forums have Teeth

I'm sorry if someone already mentioned this , but I'm at work and didn't have time to read the entire thread. I think it'd be cool if you knew you were going away on an extended SL vacation if you could take a sort of inventory or snapshot of your land. From that point on anything that collects on your land would be auto-returned after so many minutes, but every prim you had at the time of the inventory would remain.

This would keep trash off your land while you're away.