ATTENTION CREATORS! (This can bring your business to a STANDSTILL)

I don't want to spend time learning scripting to make vendors that interact with a website so I pay you money. Some people don't want to spend time learning building to make two aligned walls so they pay me money. While something like this become commonly distributed wouldn't hurt business on your level, it would mess me up something awful. The same way you depend on people not wanting to script I depend on them not wanting to build. I can think of tons of complex none scripted objects that this would effect, prefabs, jewelry, shoes, statues, pets, etc.

Ahaha, Juro. You sell things cheap enough I don't have to copy them!

No no, I mean so I can build with one and transfer to another ALT and make them the creator.

Ahahaha.

Yeah, those things that Stormy does (for example) are pretty trivial!

(Please note the obvious sarcasm there!)

Jeffrey, many thanks for a quick response, and fix for the potential issues.


Oh, and Nexus, your remark shows either no understanding or no respect for the time and energy some builders spent on creating a lot of prim and texture based content. which IS comparable to time spent on scripting.
If somebody would make an option to copy all scripts, including changing author and make them full perms, would your response have been the same?

(Oh, and when Cubey, or any designer who takes pride in his/her work, sees one of his hover vehicles fly around crippled, using a public hoverboard script, without any sound, particles and effects. I doubt his response would be: it's only prims...)

Thank you Jeffrey very much. I feel 99.98% of the SL population really tries to respect what others do, but its that 0.02% whose game it is to "beat the system." They are the ones that once they have open sourced an object release it to the grid where those that didn't realize it was never meant to be set like that.. take advantage. I know I went back to some freebies given to me when I joined SL to find clothes by Mistress Midnight in one of my give away packs with "no creator" left in place of her name. It was months before I found out that it had been ripped and distributed.

I do thank you and the original poster of this thread for making us aware of a still deadly loophole in the permissions system. Something I THOUGHT Linden Labs had fixed about two updates ago.

Guess it is time to hit the hotlines again and push for a better permission system.

Rose Portocarrero
Co-Owner, Dominion Custom Homes

I'm on the fence as to the original poster's motivation in this. I feel we need more muckraking on the problem areas of Second Life, if simply to see them resolved. I also feel that we need fewer attacks on residents, as this thread quite narrowly avoided.

Either way, things probably turned out for the better.

And blaze:

/invalid_link.html

Jeffrey, regardless of your intentions, I believe what you did is plain and simple exploiting of technological holes in SL. As a responsible scripter, when I discover exploits, I report them to Linden Lab with solutions to fix them.

The link is to a Hotline post urging LL to immediately make "modify contents" part of the permissions system as a fix to your exploit. If you truly care about creators' rights, you will lobby for this as well.

erm...so what is to stop someone making a mirror...and then a mirror of the mirror???

AAAARGH


I *wish* people would think before they script
Cali

You know, If I was being talked to the way Jeffrey was, I would tell the whole lot of you to push off...

There are ways to make your point without abusing him.

Now learn some manners.

Well, you're just Foolish.

and you should follow your own advice?

oh. are prim copiers bad? I have a great one, and it's not Jeffreys, either.

There are quite a few different ones out there. Have been for a while. So why is it a hot issue right now?

Only you would tell me to take the advice of a Fool, Hiro...

Thank you Kris, you raise a good point. I think a lot of people just didn't know other versions existed.

People need to be much more focused on this loophole in the permissions system, and not who programmed the latest version of the script. I hope LL responds to Hiro's post and gives some guidance as to whether they can address this issue within the next few months and how they might be able to solve it, even partially.


I don't know Jeffrey, but I see him as someone who really tries to be helpful to the community -- his many posts in the scripting tips forum providing advice to beginners seem proof enough of that to me.

I think the TOS should be ammended so that copying a no-copy object using a script is a clear TOS violation. I think this would prevent people from selling knock-offs, because the knock-offs would be "illegal", and making one would get you suspended.

As long as knock-offs can't be legally sold or given away, the "damange" to content creators will be limited. After all, most people who do knock-offs wouldn't buy an original anyway, so just becuase a copy exists doesn't always mean that a sale was lost. Preventing the re-sale of knock-offs is the important consideration.

Every time a new recording technology comes along, the entertainment industry goes apeshit over how the entire industry will be destroyed if it is possible to easily make copies. This happened with cassette-audio, VCR, DAT, CD-R, DVD-R, and most recently, downloading. Copying technologies don't automatically spell disaster. If everyone knows that its illegal to make copies of no-copy objects, then only crooks and amoral individuals will do it, which should account for a very small amount of copying with little effect on content creators.

Buster

The way the new script works if you make a mirror of a mirror you still have only one object and its the one you started with, with the pieces inverted then moved back.

Hiro, while I know you mean well, you're preaching to the choire on this one. I spoke directly to a couple Lindens prior to any of this coming to light, plus lobbying, plus discussion, plus everything. Because it burns me to get chastized for "being careless," let me describe precisely how this went down.

1) Script to "mirror prims" suggested to me by a famous content creator who shall remain nameless.

2) Script created. Script is debugged to properly "invert" prims along all three axes. Initial fears of copy exploiting noted.

3) Script released to "control group" of roughly five people for testing and reactions. One resident notes with some concern that script can be used to "copy" objects. After some discussion, we come to the conclusion this affects "Modify" only, and I code in a failsafe.

4) Initial Linden discussion. Told to forward question to a specific Linden.

5) This thread is created in Scripting Tips to openly poll residents on the ramifications of such a script. Note its progression and the dates of posting/modification.

6) Speak with Second Linden, who will remain nameless but seemed to be in charge of community affairs (not a Liason). I politely ask if this form of "copying" is a large concern after giving this Linden the exact script, and am told that it has been a problem for a while, but things are fine. I add a disclaimer to the script's initial "terms of use" at this point as well.

7) I release the code for the first time on the Script Library.

Further complaints are aired over the script's ability to "screw with Modify." In this light, I pull the rez code portion of the script for the first time and contact these residents, telling them I will develop a "fix" to this problem for them.

9) Said fix is developed, debugged, and distributed here. Knowing that is still not an end-all panacea for those residents that need time to find this sort of thing, I offer a two-week grace period before reopening the code to the mirror.

During this time, I lobby the Lindens and residents multiple times concerning the issue, as discussed earlier in this thread.

10) Present drama, starting with the beginning of this thread.

Now, I know it's easy to point a finger at me and go "you were careless." I'd like to know where. I did everything in my current power, as a resident, to address the issue, up to and including pulling the code twice now because it seems we're still not ready for it.

At present, I have revised code on standby that factors out creating a new prim entirely in favor of "shuffling around" the existing prims. While not as visually easy to debug or understand (a reason the script was not developed this way in the first place) - it preserves functionality nicely and skirts the issue so many would prefer see buried.

And for those reading, do me a favor - refrain from championing or chastizing me. I may have an exceptionally long fuse, but this behavior annoys me greatly. Speak to the issue.

Thank you.

Edit: And to clarify, I certainly don't mind things like this.



Reason being, it's a noted perception instead of a fact. And I appreciate that.

While I don't know him personally, everything I've seen Jeff do has been for the purpose of of helping our community. If you do a search on his forum posts, and take an overview - I think you'll find the same theme.

This is a permissions hole created by LL, that was inadvertantly exposed by Jeff. Jeff did not create the problem - LL did. Also note that the intended purpose for Jeff's script was not for stealing content - it was intended to make our lives easier.

Some of the folks complaining aren't even scripters - and don't understand how Jeff didn't create this problem with his script. So the mob grows.

Wielding your pitchforks at Jeff only serves to alienate a member of the community that contributes just as much, if not more than some of the folks complaining. If Jeff were to stop donating his script time to the community, I think it would be a huge tragedy that the folks going off half-cocked would be to blame for.

Every week it seems like we have a new drama du jour. It absolutely sickens me that Jeff - of all people - is the target of it this time around.

Note to Jeff: Thanks for doing what you do, and don't let the pitchforks detract you from your mission. There's a lot of folks out there that really appreciate everything you've done for us.

Scripts actually intended to steal content are already around and HAVE been for a long time. Attacking Jeff is like wanting to burn the man that turned his swords to plowshares "Shoulda left it a sword! That plowshare could hurt someone!"

Jeff, I hope all this doesn't discourage you from future scripting projects. It would truely be our loss.

Just be glad I have a strong constitution for stuff like this, or I would be upset.

In hindsight, for those starting here (and I know you're out there), read my previous responses thoroughly. I've had to reiterate my responses, and seen this argument spill over to other threads now. Keep it here, read how it went down, then post.

Hell. If we could just do that, the forums would be a better place.

I'd like to chime in on Jeff's defense as well.

Jeff has been nothing but helpful and pleasant about it. He has released scripts to us all that are fun and useful and amazing. To even consider hanging him for the side-effect of a script he clearly intended as a useful, legitimate tool for builders is pure dramatics.

I think it needs to be reiterated that prim duplication scripts have been around for quite a while. Long before Jeff even considered building this mirroring tool.

Don't jump up and down on him if you're angry that this can be done. It would be much more constructive to demand changes to the permissions system.

Graduating the modify permissions into Mod Contents, Mod Shape/Scale, Mod Texture, and Full Mod is my personal favorite.

btw, you guys do know that now we have the 'edit linked parts' toggle that you can read *every* property of every prim even in no copy no modify items? so you don't need a script at all to exactly replicate any object. It just speeds up the process by automating it. So if someone is gonna do it, they can do it anyway.

Hey Jeff,

I think your prim mirroring script is a great tool, and it would be a shame if this wasn't available to everyone.

Suggestion? Maybe release the tool as copy/nomod/transfer. That way, people wouldn't be able to bypass the built-in creator-check.

In Jeff's defence, I don't believe this tool was released in an irresponsible manner.
1) It didn't copy textures. There are simpler, better tools for model duplication.
2) If you understand LSL enough to modify Jeff's script, you might as well just write a better prim duplicator.
3) The positive utility of this script out-weighed the potential abuses.

In defense of us pitchfork weilders.

1. Its not that I think that he "invented" this problem and that other people can't do it. It's that I think that most that can recreate his script are not the type of people that need to steal. I fear that if the script becomes common in world that the type of people without skill to get by on their own will use it to steal.

2. The positive outweighing the negative is completely relative when it comes to this script. I have never needed to mirror anything in the year I have played SL, but I have had to deal with people reselling my things. The headaches this script getting out would not be worth the nifty ability to mirror things. For someone else who is less in business and creates more complex items sure, it would be useful. It totally depends on what you do in SL if this is a dream tool or a nightmare.

Have you tried the tool yourself to see how "easy" it is to use, Kas?

I know its no longer available - but possibly it would be worthwhile to ping Jeff for a copy - and try it yourself. I have a feeling that its not quite as easy to setup & use as you think it is... and if that's true, that might alleviate some of your concerns in #1 & #2

When I saw it in the forums - it didn't look 'impossible' - but by no means seemed an easy script to setup for the typical consumer either.

Yes, he gave me a copy and showed me how it worked the night before last. My fears were not alleviated.