GLBT Disappointment in Dreamland

No, she did more: She also advertised it as a GLBT neighborhood. She is the one projecting that development as a statement about GLBT community.

If she had not advertised it as a GLBT neighborhood, I never would have posted.

Zarf, your issue is with the individual who put up the sign and the hottub, not Anshe. Anshe has put up the money to create a sim where GLBT folks can feel free to expess themselves freely in various ways (such as builds). You may not appreciate the build and the note that you found, but that isn't Anshe's fault.

Does that particular build give the wrong impression of GLBT? Maybe - but should Anshe clamp down on it after opening a sim to provide freedom of expression and community for GLBT because some feel that particular build plays into the stereotype? I don't think so, as it would defeat the whole spirit of being free to express onesself.

I think you should contact the owner of that build and disucss your concerns with them.

Watermelon has been used historically as a sign of the child-like minds of the African race. It has been used for over a century by those who oppressed African Americans. So yes, the watermelon patch, as the prominent characteristic of an African-SL sim would be offensive.

Hip Hop clubs have generally been a source of empowerment to the African-American community and world at large. So no, it wouldn't be offensive.

Consider what? You're not making a logical connection between Anshe renting to someone and her responsibility to the image of a community. You keep asserting there is a connection, but you have so far not demonstrated it to be real.
The way I'm thinking about it, zoning is something preexisting one agrees to when moving in and censoring happens afterward. So, in the case of Provincetown, there was appearantly nothing in the zoning rules about avoiding stereotyical facets that might offend people.

I suppose a parellel could be drawn to the Showtime cable channel. They prominently feature the show Queer as Folk, and advertise heavily to the gay community. The show itself is produced by gay people. While an excellent show, it also carrys on the stereotype of gays as youth, sex and drug obsessed. Does Showtime ultimately have a responsibility for the content of the show and the message that it sends, since it is actively marketing the show and channel to that community?

I would say the answer is no, they don't. They should instead be applauded for giving the creators the freedom to express what they want to express. While you can certainly wish for something more, it is presumptuous to place that burden on anyone else. Just as the producers of Queer as Folk are telling the story they want to tell, the people who have bought land in the Provincetown sim are doing the same because Anshe has given them an environment to do so. Someone may not like that yet again, it seems to just further the stereotype. However, I went to the sim, and you know what I saw? The same sim that was described as some godawful hellhole that Anshe should be ashamed of is actually quite beautiful, and contains mostly homes along a beach.

A community is the sum of all of its people, not just the ones who represent you. As offended as one may be to the bath/condom thing for whatever reasons, it is a part of gay life for many, and for someone else it represents exactly what they want to express. Why is one person's vision of what GLBT people are any more or less valid than anyone elses?

Excuse me, but I am African American, and I do not listen to Hip Hop and would be offended if you assumed that was acceptable.

on the other hand, I do eat Watermelon and find nothing wrong with a watermelon patch.

Either way, it's the individual you should be taking this up with, not Anshe. It bears repeating.

I would never have picked up that reference. I've never come across it used a racial context in the UK.

There's an area in SL for gay people to engage in public sex? Well, guess what. There are areas in SL for straight people to engage in public sex -- lots of them. And there are areas in SL for people dressed up as anthropomorphic animals to have public sex. People who like dressing up in horse tack and being whipped when they screw, people who are into being giant robots, people with pointy elf ears and longbows . . . people of every sexual orientation and kink can find a place in SL to have public sex. So, gay people have the equal opportunity to screw in public . . . that's no surprise. The problem -- if you want to label it a problem -- is not that GLBT folks have a bathhouse in a sim owned by Anshe; it's that there are a lot of folks of all kinds in SL who like to boff in public and build special places to do it. If this disturbs you, I suggest you keep to the PG sims.

BTW, just as an aside . . . I saw Anshe in Furry gear months and months before she ever had anything to do with The Forest.

You said it so much better than I tried to. Bravo Kiim!

If you don't like the image of gays presented by the sign and bath house, speak to the image maker.

Holding Ansche responsible for what someone installs in a gay friendly community is little different from assigning her as an arbitar of appropriateness and correctness for that community.

If the bath house truly has no appeal to a gay audience, and is in fact offensive to that audience, the place will fold as a business and disappear some night.

You could perhaps rent some land there and put up something which you think does expresss your idea of a GLBT community -- if I read the advertisement correctly, it sounds like that's what that sim is all about.

But don't expect everyone within the GLBT community to share exactly the same notions of taste, appropriateness, or dignity. No community is like that.

I give up -

I don't think I can convince you all that I don't care about public sex spaces, nor do I want more zoning, nor any censorship. But it's true. And clearly I can't explain to you why equating GLBT with public sex, or African heritage with watermelon, or being Jewish with money lending is offensive, even while the individual activities themselves are fine.

My original title says it all: "disappointment". That is what I feel.

I feel disappointed that the most prominently advertised GLBT neighborhood in SL presents a bath-house with off-color references to condoms upon TP'ing in. I am sad for all the first time GLBT visitors to SL who'll see that as a prime example of GLBT community. I think being GLBT is so much more.

I'm disappointed with Anshe for thinking that makes a good GLBT development - for whether or not you think she had any control over it, she still advertises it. And of course I'm disappointed with the builders for thinking that this would be somehow appropriate for the very center of the only advertised, developed GLBT neighborhood.

And I'd be disappointed with the GLBT community in SL, if this is the best showing we can have. But I was there for SL Pride and it was wonderful and diverse, so I know that the SL GLBT community is more than public sex spaces. My hope is that we can make more of that kind of community happen.

I've said my piece.

Oh, I'm sure everyone agrees with your perspective, Zarf, however I hope you're not under the illusion that anyone should do anything about it?

I think your best option for protest is to go rent some land from Anshe or buy your own parcel/sim and do better.

Good evening,

My name is Ghareth Faulkland. I've been away for the weekend and had no idea that life had imploded in Provincetown in the last 24 hours until I logged in just now. Don't hang Anshe for the sign, it was mine and now it's gone but not without an explanation of my intent and expression of my own disappointment.

When I heard about Provincetown, I welcomed the idea and spent a lot of money I don't have to secure the space to build a gathering place for my new group and our friends. The thought behind the Naughty Frat Boys, beyond its playful nature, was to offer the bonding experience in SL that many of us couldn't have because of our orientation in college. Do we enjoy adult activities? Sure, between individual members but the GROUP has become a close knit bunch of guys who hang out together, talk, dance, build, teach each other SL skills, and enjoy each others company. There's more to fraternity life than candles and paddles. My own lifestyle is Ds oriented but that's not a requirement, the desire to be a part of something bigger than ourselves is.

And that's where the Public Pool came in. Yes, we wanted a nice play space to share with Throb, one of the few gay clubs that seems to be left on SL, but I wanted to give something back to the community too so I used the space over the 'public dungeon' to create something for the community. It was originally a place for public events and Full Moon rituals for the new Queer Pagans group and Furry Frolics for my friends. My SL love fell in love with a pool we found in Gor... so I built him one. I got a lesson in waterfalls so it would blend nicely with the landscape. Rather than hide it on my property, I put it out there for the public to use and have encouraged everyone who visits the sim to relax and enjoy it.

Read the sign you found so offensive, it is NOT a bathhouse, it was a pool. There are no sex animations there, just some singles and couples poses where we have spent hours relaxing and talking and doing what the 'normal folks' get to do everywhere else on SL. We couldn't bsk together in Gor so we created our own oasis in what we hoped was a safe space with nothing sordid out in the open.

I've taken down the signs. If the residents want me to hide the pool, let me know and I'll enclose the piece of property and there won't be a public space for people to find offensive anymore. So much for a sense of community.

There IS a Roman bath with adult animations IN MY HOME but that is NOT part of the public park or pool and I've seen the same complex, which I purchased off a showroom floor, in a dozen sims, out on rooftpos and in backyards. I didn't note a line of peasante with pitchforks and torches lining up to crucify those landowners.

I apologize if the condoms line offended people, my tongue tends to be deep enough in cheek to pop through the other side, but it was meant to be light hearted and amusing. Everyone who referenced the sign to me in game chuckled. Most of the residents of the sim are members of the group, or were when we built things. If anyone had asked me, I would have removed the sign. The point was to announce a public space for people to enjoy. If someone was bothered they could have sent me an IM and approached me like a man, there was no need to attack me through Anshe who has provided a service to my friends and I. This could have been handled in game and I would have responded to you like a gentleman. I don't read these forums regularly and only found out about this because you upset someone I care greatly about.

Thanks for poisoning my SL experience. Maybe I should just stick the space under another generic black box and put a lock on the door. You now, back in the closet where we belong. Excuse me for trying to conribute something bigger. I'm going to go throw up now. I always counsel people that VR relationships can hurt as much as RL ones. Well, I haven't been this hurt in a long time. Thanks for reminding me that you can't go home again.

Sorry Anshe. I'll move if you want.

Ghareth

Ghareth, please don't go back in the closet. I thought your place was very nice. I loved the Roman touch. I don't really know what Zarf wants or expects. I think it's worst to make someone behave a certain way because they belong to a certain group. Keep your place the way you want. I would even say keep the sign, it's fine.

Now for my piece.

1) Its not a Roman Bathhouse, its a Romanesque open-air pool.
2) There are no sexual animations present.
3) A rule about not leaving condoms behind sounds fairly normal for any RL gay-friendly pool like this would be. Perhaps because your a cranky old man (don't want to call you son) you don't get the humor and that it pokes fun at the stereotype you say it reinforces.
4) I know who Leghorn Foghorn is and I still expect to be called son, hell I'm only 34 (though I guess in the gay community that makes me an old man and I should shut up now).
5) The pool is NOT a prominent part of the sim, and maybe when you went the telehub location was in a different spot but now you land with the whole park between you and the pool and the Frat House and Throb buildings stand out more as first impressions. (A nice looking glass sided buidling and a quaint old style brick building). The park itself seems the most prominent feature of the sim, a big open grassy area.
6) I didn't know it was in the classifieds, never look at them.
7) P-town sim is a lot more positive imagery for the GLBT community than half the locations that show up in Find Places if you search for gay or GLBT. And Find Places is used a lot more than the classifieds.
You want to raise a stink about a bathhouse hurting the community image? Go pester the Lindens about Club Steam that's been around a lot longer, is a full bathhouse with lots of BDSM equipment, and is on the mainland.

Get off your high horse and relax. Its people like you Zarf that make me stick to my 'normal' life and not deal with the 'community' that much. Why put up with those who claim they want to support me when all they want to do is point out how every other GLBT person out there is doing something to harm the community but they aren't. There's two terms that fit you Zarf: "Drama Queen" and "Troll".

Thanks April. That was a self-taught lesson in capturing and uploading textures. I found a bas relief called "Fauns Crushing Grapes" and I thought it was appropriate classical art (No nineteen foot tall erections).

I searched the forums for info on water effects and was able to get a lesson from Margot Abbatoir, truly the Goddess of water effects, and learned to create the waterfall. I wanted something tasteful. I never imagined it would be interpreted as a bathhouse. I don't even own a trenchcoat. tasteful really was what we were going for and the sign really was meant to keep things light. I guess I won't be opening at Catch a Rising Star any time soon.

Hugs,
Ghareth

Without going into too much detail, I'll try to make this as short as possible.

... it's an alternative lifestyles sim. It doesn't claim to be anything else. If gay people wanted to go somewhere where they could, I suppose by Zarf's definition, have no sex, they would go to a PG area, or some other sim that was not sexually oriented. I think the problem, Zarf, is that you see gay people as being fundamentally different from other people, in that they would want a 'normal, no public sex place' that is somehow different from straight people. I suppose it would be nice to have a non-sexual gay community sim or something, but what is the point, really? SL is pretty open, the straights talk about sex in the main mature areas all the time, and so do the gays, for the most part. I see the place you envision as being pretty redundent and unnecessary.

Thus ends my short rant.

I think we can all safely say everyone completely supports what's going on in this SIM

Cristiano,

<<When she saved the furries, she whipped out her furry avatar in solidarity, and now is also bisexual it seems (at least I think that is the B she is referring to in GLBT, your mileage may vary). Hooray for diversity.>>

It is impossible to be both furry and bisexual? Are you implying that Anshe, for devious reasons, is *pretending* to be furry and bisexual? (Incidentally, I seem to remember that both of these were true, long before the event you mention). Or is this just a way of finding something, anything, on which to pin an attack?

It figures out of all that I said in this thread, that is the single thing you would hone in on. Anshe can be a bisexual furry Dutch speaking belly dancing elf - I am not disputing the validity of any of it. Just expressing my opinion, and the opinion of others that it always seems calculated as part of marketing her land sales.

I agree how insensitive. I have had many gay friends in my life and just want to say please think before you do things.

If the residents choose to stereotype themselves by living in a sim distinguished by a club, a dungeon and baths then that is their choice. Many of the residents I know there are younger guys, so their only shared experience of the GLB life is a sexual one. They have not suffered decades of loss, discrimination and dance music, as have many of the older guys I have met in SL, who tend to be much more into family, homes, jobs and health issues. Anshe has given them a lot of independence in setting up their sim. Just from my own standpoint, I would have thought that the trendier men's designers would have staked out their turf from the start, that would have made it a whole lot more appealing to many of us, but there you go; my priorities are different. I don't go out to clubs in RL - or much in SL - and I wouldn't be caught dead in a dungeon, public or not. I am sure that the sign is just Ghareth having a bit of fun.

Both of those choices do indicate an almost comical inability to make a choice...

Excuse me? What the hell does that mean?

David,

<<Both of those choices do indicate an almost comical inability to make a choice... >>

Thinking that bisexuals are unable to make a choice is not much different from stereotyping gay males as cottage queens.