GLBT Disappointment in Dreamland

Right now in the in-world classifieds is an advert for "GLBT Neighborhood" land. I eagerly teleported to see what this new development in SL is like. I was sorely disappointed.

The sim, "Provencetown" is an an almost entirely flat sim with no landscaping. What makes this barren square GLBT? It's the Roman bath 10m from the teleport hub where a garish rainbow colored sign tells us that clothing is optional in the bath and that we are not to leave our "condoms floating in the water".

What a degrading piece of stereotyping by a clueless developer. Rainbows and public sex are what makes a neighborhood GLBT? Anshe, do you even know a RL or SL GLBT person? Don't get me wrong - I don't care if there are public bath houses for sexual liaisons in SL. But to have one as the defining marker of Dreamland's GLBT neighborhood is offensive.

It really saddens me to think that new GLBT SL members will see this in the Classifieds and believe that this is what SL thinks of GLBT culture. I was very fortunate to join SL during SL's wonderful GLBT Pride Week. I had a great time and met many really nice people in SL. That experience helped me decide to become a permanent resident.

Anshe, as a developer with your own continent, you are free to do as you wish - but your actions have considerable impact on the culture of SL. This "development", when coupled with the very visible classified creates a terrible impression of SL's GLBT community, which in my experience isn't all about public sex.

To the GLBT community, I hope you will realize the damage Anshe's development does to us. Let's respond by creating better GLBT neighborhoods, groups, events and community, and not let a clueless developer profit at our expense.


- Zarf Vantongerloo, Gay in both SL and RL

(My mom is a Lesbian, so growing up I went to the parades and such and met plenty of other nice Gay Community people. It is thus informed that I make the following statement)

The condoms bit is easily the most shockingly insenstive, insulting and tasteless bit of behavior I've heard of a business using in SL. I'm not sure what sort of preconceived notion of polite interaction can even justify a sign of that sort.

edit: It would seem that no business has sponsored the sign. It's tasteless, but belonging to an individual. Meh.

Whoa son, slow down a bit. If I'm not mistaken, what you saw was something on someone's land, not something Anshe built specifically. I have to say that Anshe is pretty responsive and if someone living in that area found the sign offensive, she would have it removed. But you can't lay this on Anshe, it's the person who owns the property that built the bathhouse.

On the same token, if Anshe came along and told them they couldn't have that, especially if someone hadn't complained, the owners would be just as riled up as you are.

I hope you understand the damage your remarks can make, when you don't check out the facts before hand.

You have your conception of what GLBT should be, and now you're telling these guys what they should and shouldn't have?

Before coming here, you could have contacted the owners and told them what you thought rather than branding Anshe or anyone first. Did you try to IM them?

*That* is true enough. Can someone confirm the ownership of the sign?

The sign is not owned by Anshe - the sign and the bath (complete with teleport to Provincetown Public Dungeous sponsored by the Naughty Frat Boys) is owned by Ghareth Faulkland.

Well, I went and looked. April is quite right.

The bath was built and is owned by a group dedicated to "alternative lifestyles", appearantly with a penchant for the sexual. It's not Anshe's by any stretch, it's just her sim.

What makes the sim a GBLT place is nothing more than the intent to have a neighborhood of GBLT folks.

So I'm not sure where the vitriol comes from, other than being offended at the stereotype.

Additionally, I have to say the sim is quite well done, once you get outside the inner part of it - the coast area with homes and beaches is beautiful. The sim has a really nice atmosphere. I have to give Anshe credit - it is very distinctive and has a great feel to it.

The Dreamland GLBT area has been initiated by friends of mine from gay, lesbian and bisexual community in Second Life. The buildings and content you find there reflects the visions and self expression of the GLBT members who bought and develop land there.

Who knows what the "B" in "GLBT" stands for may also know that I am part of GLBT community myself and as such I find original post in this thread kinda funny

I am always open to suggestion though if you have any ideas how to make things better

...soon time for the BDSM sim.. )) four letter words are always interesting...

Already several of those.

My main objection doesn't hinge on if the baths are or are not Anshe's. It is that as a large developer advertising the sim as a GLBT neighborhood - she bears some responsibility for the public perception of GLBT based on what ends up being built there.

Shortly after the classified appeared, I TP'd there, and there was nothing there except the bath - and one's AV appeared at the TP facing directly at it, no more than few meters away. There is no way that one would not assume that this is Anshe's vision of a GLBT neighborhood. In fact, given Anshe's strict zoning policies, one must assume this is what she feels is "residential"!

If one is going to make the argument that Anshe bears no responsibility, that she is just a developer, and is simply trading in the commodity of land - then she has no business advertising it as a GLBT neighborhood.

As for the neighborhood being developed by GLBT friends of Anshe's, that is fine. I really have no problem with people designing residential communities that include public sex spaces, if that is what they are into.

My distress was that as the ONLY advertised GLBT neighborhood in the classifieds, this was creating public declaration that GLBT community was all about public sex. I don't think that is true of the SL GLBT community, and I think it will be damaging to GLBT SL members: New ones that come and think that is what SL thinks of them, and existing ones, since it will reenforce a very one-dimensional stereotype.


What, are you Foghorn Leghorn? If you know the reference, then you know I'm way too old to be called "son".

She does? In what way?

Well actually my grandfather called everyone son, no matter how old or what their gender was. But if you read the rest of the thread, some people asked Anshe to create this sim. The things in the sim are created by members of the GLBT community. Who is to define what GLBT means to them. As for it being the only GLBT listing, then hon, go ahead, create your GLBT community and advertise it.

There are other properties there now and again, it is a reflection of the land owners themselves, not Anshe.

Perhaps if you set up a guideline of just what a GLBT community should be, the rest of us will try to adhere to it.

If you feel that a space in which people are free to express themselves somehow demeans the GLBT community, feel free to buy a private sim and start another community. Personally, I prefer an environment in which you are free to express yourself, and any overly draconian zoning is anathema to me. As it is, I think Anshe's zoning policies are the perfect balance. Evidently, you would prefer a more strictly enforced zoning policy. Thus, you may be happier with your own sim.

I dunno, I kind of wish they would drop the "L" from GBLT sometimes. It is really always about the "G" men a lot of the time.

On a more positive note, many of the gay men I have known would think it kind of humourous to have the gay baths being the first thing you see. A lot of that generation are not around any more though so maybe the new boys think different?

What's cool or funny changes so fast...

Exactly - see, when individuals or corporations have more wealth - they are able to do things than mere mortals can't. I can't buy a sim and I can't develop and advertise a new GLBT neighborhood. I can't afford it. Because of this, when entities get large, they bear more responsibility because they wield more power. But perhaps *this* discussion belongs in Politics...



No, I'm all for diversity, not definition - But you see, the problem is that Anshe's idea of GLBT community, by virtue of the power of her position, is advertising what GLBT community is. If I come to SL for the first time - I look at the very first page of classifieds and see "GLBT Neighborhood", then TP there what do I see: That in SL, GLBT community means gay men having public sex. And that definition is clearly skewed.



Which sort of makes my point...



Equating GLBT community with public sex is demeaning as swipes aside else all that GLBT people are. Equating GLBT community with public sex hardly creates a neighborhood where people are free to express themselves. Freedom to express oneself, especially about being GLBT has little to do with performing sex acts in public.



Alas, my point wasn't about zoning, or a call for more (or less). It is that Anshe's advertisement and development create a poor, stereotypical statement about GLBT people. That as a GLBT person, I'd be very turned off if that was the first GLBT thing I saw in SL.

If you notice, I said I was disappointed. I never called for more zoning, and I've never called for any action by, for or against Anshe. I've only stated that I felt she bore responsibility for this representation. And I called on the GLBT community to do better.

I'm so sorry, I still don't understand what you are having a problem with. Are you saying there shouldn't be a GLBT? Or that someone should censor such a place and only put in specific things?

I personally didn't see what you saw. The person who made the public bath seemed to like it. It wasn't overt, except for the sign.

What do you want us to do, please tell us specifically so we don't get it wrong again.

I'm so sorry, I still don't understand what you are having a problem with. Are you saying there shouldn't be a GLBT? Or that someone should censor such a place and only put in specific things?

I personally didn't see what you saw. The person who made the public bath seemed to like it. It wasn't overt, except for the sign.

What do you want us to do, please tell us specifically so we don't get it wrong again.

So. Anshe opens a sim at the behest of several to house a GBLT community. Because she's successful and weilds a bit of power borne of money she is now sadled with the responsibility to censor her renters?

I sure hope I read that wrong. Can you imagine the outcry if she were to actually do that?

Let's not be hasty here. I'm sure if we look around we can find something to blame Anshe for.

~Ulrika~

Well at least note that she has adapted herself yet again. When she saved the furries, she whipped out her furry avatar in solidarity, and now is also bisexual it seems (at least I think that is the B she is referring to in GLBT, your mileage may vary). Hooray for diversity.

C'mon - I don't think I'm being that opaque:

I'm expressing disappointment that Anshe's development passes for GLBT neighborhood.

I want the GLBT community to do better: Build a better GLBT neighborhood, etc. I think I said this in the very first post.

I don't want to censor anyone. I don't want zoning changes. I don't want to censor people who want to have public sex baths at all.

I do want Anshe to think about the impact of her actions. Hopefully, when she decides to develop and advertise New Jerusalem it won't start out with just a money lender hut. Or an African-SL neighborhood that won't prominently feature a watermelon patch. Or the a Family Neighborhood won't have a sign that tells women to "vacuum the house and freshly apply your makeup at 5pm so you'll look fresh for your husband".

If she did make an African American sim, and I did put up a Watermelon Patch, would you complain? Would you complain if I put up a Hip Hop club?

The point is, Anshe didn't make the bathhouse, or the sign. Someone put it there who lived there. You have to take it up with that person, not Anshe. Tell the gay man that owns the lot that he cannot put up the bathhouse. If he doesn't take it down, then come to the forum and complain to everyone that this guy has a bathhouse. You can't drag Anshe into this one.

And how does Anshe manage to prevent such things without censoring her tennants? I don't belive it's up to Anshe to decide how any of the communities on her islands present themselves. All she's done is zoned the land and placed restrictions on builds so it doesn't go all hodge-podge like the mainland. Why this would saddle her with the responsibility of caring for the image of any community escapes me.

But consider... Two of Anshe's Jewish friends ask her to open an Jewish sim. They think it hilarious to have a money-lending business as the first thing you see when you TP. All well and good - but once Anshe opens the development up to the public, it becomes a public statement - and she'd do well to think about the image it projects. Is *that* what she wants people to think is Jewish space in SL? Is that good for the Jewish community as a whole? Maybe she doesn't care. Maybe humoring her friends, and turning a buck is all that matters to her. But like it or not, she is making an SL-wide statement about Jewish-SL community.

(Oh no, is Anshe Jewish too?...)



Well, actually, isn't that what Anshe's zoning is? When codified (however losely on her website) we call it zoning. When applied arbitrarily (or against our wishes) we call it censorship.